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Very noticeable improvements in brain fog using Dr Greg Russell-Jones's transdermal B12 oils (which provide a similar dose to B12 injections)

Tella

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Have u been tested for deficiency? Many if not most cfs patients have low levels or a full on pernicious anemia
All cfs patients should test b12 levels and if low , and even if NOT low try injections
If u have anemia your body won’t absorb it. No oil will be absorbed thru the system. It’s a false claim it’s same as injections
 

Hip

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No oil will be absorbed thru the system. It’s a false claim it’s same as injections
The oil found in Dr Greg Russell-Jones's B12 oils is a microemulsion penetration enhancer, which is a specific type of chemical technology. You can read how such microemulsions are able to transdermally deliver substances into the body here.

Normally, molecules larger than around 500 daltons are not able to cross the skin. But using microemulsions, you can transdermally draw much larger molecules into the body, including methylcobalamin which has a molecular weight of 1344 daltons.

I was also initially skeptical of the ability of these B12 oils to pull vitamin B12 through the skin; but once I read about microemulsion technology, I realized how this system works. Dr Russell-Jones is an expert on microemulsions.
 

Tella

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The oil found in Dr Greg Russell-Jones's B12 oils is a microemulsion penetration enhancer, which is a specific type of chemical technology. You can read how such microemulsions are able to transdermally deliver substances into the body here.

Normally, molecules larger than around 500 daltons are not able to cross the skin. But using microemulsions, you can transdermally draw much larger molecules into the body, including methylcobalamin which has a molecular weight of 1344 daltons.

I was also initially skeptical of the ability of these B12 oils to pull vitamin B12 through the skin; but once I read about microemulsion technology, I realized how this system works. Dr Russell-Jones is an expert on microemulsions.
My mistake. I thought u take it orally!
Yes sure some can go thru the skin

there’s no sub for injections tho and I highly recommend those and testing too. Just check symptoms....basically cfs symptoms. Plus one can die from it. Cheers
 

Hip

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Yes sure some can go thru the skin
Greg estimates about 80% of the B12 gets through the skin. If true, since each dose of the B12 oil provides 2500 mcg of B12, you are going to get more B12 into your system than injections, which typically provide a dose of 500 to 1000 mcg of B12.

Greg also argues that the slower delivery of the B12 transdermal oils may help the body better utilize the B12. With an injection, you get an instant flood dose of B12, but with the oil the B12 is delivered more slowly over several hours.
 

Tella

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Greg estimates about 80% of the B12 gets through the skin. If true, since each dose of the B12 oil provides 2500 mcg of B12, you are going to get more B12 into your system than injections, which typically provide a dose of 500 to 1000 mcg of B12.

Greg also argues that the slower delivery of the B12 transdermal oils may help the body better utilize the B12. With an injection, you get an instant flood dose of B12, but with the oil the B12 is delivered more slowly over several hours.
It’s not new stuff...

https://healthunlocked.com/pasoc/posts/131705967/b12-oils

also people say: it lost me at the point it referred to 'the two natural forms of B12 found in the body'.
whilst adenosyl and methyl are the two forms used in cellular processes the process for getting them into your cells makes that pretty irrelevant as the methyl/adenosyl element would be split off to enable transport and then have to be recombined in the cell.

I had a look at the site and remain completely unenlightened to what delivery method they are proposing.
Looks pretty but also looks like a lot of marketing hype.’

dunno...injections have more research. This oil been out for long but PA patients don’t seem to use it still. Why?
Plus have u been tested for PA and had injections? Until one tries that I still don’t see if one can tell if it helps them

 

Hip

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Plus have u been tested for PA and had injections?
I have not been tested for pernicious anemia. I have tried hydroxocobalamin injections, and did not notice much. I noticed more from a B12 transdermal oil which comprised both methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin.


This oil been out for long but PA patients don’t seem to use it still. Why?
Don't know, it is much easier applying the oil than giving yourself an injection, so it would be useful for PA patients. It is also cheaper than injections, although I expect PA patients will get injections prescribed by their doctor, so it does not cost them much.
 

Tella

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I have not been tested for pernicious anemia. I have tried hydroxocobalamin injections, and did not notice much. I noticed more from a B12 transdermal oil which comprised both methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin.




Don't know, it is much easier applying the oil than giving yourself an injection, so it would be useful for PA patients. It is also cheaper than injections, although I expect PA patients will get injections prescribed by their doctor, so it does not cost them much.
Can u please point me to some studies as so far everywhere it says b12 just cannot get thru the skin. Defo not in the right dose. Thanks
 

Hip

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Can u please point me to some studies as so far everywhere it says b12 just cannot get thru the skin. Defo not in the right dose. Thanks
I don't know any studies specifically for B12, but if you Google for literature on microemulsions and nanoemulsions, you might find some data about these being able to get large molecules through the skin.

A couple of documents from Greg: patent, and article.
 

Busson

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@Tella I can understand your reservation about B12 oil possibly being a marketing scam for high priced products. However there are several threads here which discuss Greg's oils and most people who have tried them have posted to say they find them effective.

There's theory to back up transdermal B12 but the real answer is from the practical results which users have reported. Back in 1967 Howe found B12 was absorbed through the skin by animals and modern papers now look at the most effective way of absorbing B12 transdermally. See here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3758059/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24310591/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6029076/

The pernicious anemia people you mention don't all follow the same protocol. For example, the board you referenced at Health Unlocked is very cautious about excess folic acid (they don't favor methyl folate) but a Facebook group run by author Sally Pacholok can't get enough of it. Go figure.

Note that the most popular oil is a combination of adenoB12 and methylB12, whereas injections are mostly hydroxoB12 which relies on functioning pathways in the body to break it down into adenoB12 and methylB12.
 
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Ultra-high dose methylcobalamin has been shown to promote nerve regeneration, and shown to protect against glutamate-induced neurotoxicity.
Susan Owens (Oxalate expert) states that glutamate reactions are due to low B6. I can't even tolerate glutathione (like in an IV push, injected or oral). Can't do carageenen, brewer's yeast, nutritional yeast, etc. It will be interesting to see if these sensitivities lessen once I get all my B's straightened out.

Maybe the neurotoxicity is both B6 and B12 deficiency?
 
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As far as PA goes, no doc or specialist ever said anything to me (for 15 years) until recently. I had a doc who specializes in nutrients run a lot of labs including methylmalonic acid as I wanted a more complete B12 picture. My mma came back at 16,900!!! The range is 1.9-28. This sent me to several geneticists - who I swear are more closed minded than endocrinologists. (oh, my serum B12 was in the just below the middle of the range. One of the worst ranges in lab history.)

Anyway, one geneticist mentioned PA. My MCV and MCH were just above the range. So I looked at over a decade a labs and it was has always been this way, either right at the top or over the top. But not enough that it was ever mentioned. (Even with all my symptoms, you'd think you'd want to maximize all our nutrients.)

With the MMA I was put on B12 injections which quickly, thankfully, brought my mma down. I also started an adenoC supplement. (Not sure what damage the high mma did or how long it was going on.) But my MCV and MCH are still right over the top as of yesterday. I thought I'd see some improvement over 3 months now.

I have read over and over that folic acid will mask B12 deficiency. Most people consider it the devil and it's in most of our food supply, especially cereal/grain products.

Yesterday, I was watching a doc do some presentations on PA and B12 deficiencies. He mentioned that Biotin was necessary in all of this. I had never heard this before.

Here's a screen shot of one of his slides. The video is here:
Screen Shot 2020-07-24 at 5.31.56 PM.png
 
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@Aurelius

A few months ago I decided to experiment again and had a huge reaction to l-carnitine fumarate. World became colourful, head cleared up a lot etc.
I'm curious about your usage of l-carnitine fumarate. I'm always low in carnitine and yet, when I try supplementing it, it doesn't usually go well. Horrible cranky mood.
A few months ago a tried a supplement that contains a "proprietary amount" among other ingredients and it didn't bother me. The supplement is to supposed to increase your parasympathetic system. It helped a bit.....for a bit.
I think I'll look at my old bottles of l-carnitine and see what form they are (as well as fillers).

Is it still working for you? More world more colorful would be nice :)
When my health first crashed, the first two things I went on were hydrocortisol and Armour. Within in 6 weeks I went from completely bed bound thinking I'd die, to feeling better than ever in my life. One thing I distinctly remember is colors were more vivid.
Then I started regressing. Roller coaster ever since.
 
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Really interesting this hip. I did wonder about the other b vitamins and potential down regulation if you only take b12. Still based on the other thread I've made, I tihnk I have figured out what's causing part of my ME. Might try this if I don't see improvements in 12 months.
 
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Quick question the b co factors. Will any form work?

https://www.dolphinfitness.co.uk/en/biocare-adult-multivitamins-and-minerals-90-vegicaps/25608
Looks like biocare might have discontinued htis product and replaced it with a methyl based product which is almost identical but has methly b12 and methly folate instead.

I have biocare adult multivitamins here with B1 25mg
B2 25mg
B3 50mg
B6 25mg

They all seem to be the cheapest forms of b vitamin as per the ingredients on the bottle. Also contains

Molybdenum 98.7ug
Iodine 38ug

I already take selenium 400ug per day currently.