Very noticeable improvements in brain fog using Dr Greg Russell-Jones's transdermal B12 oils (which provide a similar dose to B12 injections)

[NotThisGuy]

@Hip do you know what other ingridients are in greg's oil? cant find anything on his website.
Just like @Mary I'm one of the people benefiting from liquid B12. Powder and sublingual dont do anything good at all .
I always use:
https://www.iherb.com/pr/pure-advantage-b-12-spray-500-mcg-1-fl-oz/18154

I'm always wondering if the glycerine somehow helps absorbing B12. I think I once read somewhere that glycerine at least protects the MeB12 from photolysis but not totally sure anymore.

Anyways is there any chance that you might try out one of the liquids and compare them to the oil? (Living in germany makes it very hard to get hands on greg's oil myself because of customs otherwise I would test it myself).

There is also somewhere a thread here on this forum about Greg's oil and people in there mentioned that they solve B12 powder in water and mixed it into handcreme and claim it's as good as getting an injection. Since you already have more than enough b12 powder maybe thats also worth a try.

 

[Hip]

@Hip do you know what other ingridients are in greg's oil? cant find anything on his website.

I believe the main additional ingredient in Greg's B12 oils is the microemulsion, which is the penetration enhancer that pulls the B12 through the skin.

I always use:
https://www.iherb.com/pr/pure-advantage-b-12-spray-500-mcg-1-fl-oz/18154
I'm always wondering if the glycine somehow helps absorbing B12.

I think you mean glycerine (also called glycerol). Just did some Googling and found this patent on B12 transdermal delivery, and they say that B12 skin penetration enhancers include glycerine:

Particularly preferred fatty acids for the permeation enhancers include oleic acid, undecanoic acid, valeric acid, heptanoic acid, pelargonic acid, capric acid, lauric acid, and eicosapentaenoic acid.

Particularly preferred polyols for the permeation enhancers include propylene glycol, polyethylene glycol, and glycerol.

It looks like olive oil (which about 60% oleic acid), and coconut oil (which contains lauric acid and capric acid) are also good penetration enhancers for B12, according to that patent.

There is also somewhere a thread here on this forum about Greg's oil and people in there mentioned that they solve B12 powder in water and mixed it into handcreme and claim it's as good as getting an injection.

Sounds interesting, I will give it a go.

 

[NotThisGuy]

yes you are right. Of course I meant glycerine and not glycine. Interesting patent. Thx for the research

 

[outdamnspot]

If we couldn't tolerate the cofactors Greg suggests, would there be any harm in trying the oil on its own?

 

[Hip]

If we couldn't tolerate the cofactors Greg suggests, would there be any harm in trying the oil on its own?

I would guess the B12 oil on its own would be OK, though possibly might not be as effective. You already have those essential vitamin and mineral cofactors in your body; the idea of supplementing with them is just to ensure that you have enough of them.

There may be a possible "dark side" to methylcobalamin though: there are occasional stories of even single doses of methylcobalamin triggering new allergies, multiple chemical sensitivity, and arthritis. These side effects may be rare, but perhaps worth mentioning.

 

[Busson]

However, I am not observing any cumulative improvements in my ME/CFS since I started taking the B12 oil and cofactors at the beginning of Nov 2018 (though I only take the B12 oil once every 3 days, because daily administration can cause me overstimulation).

@Hip I have used Greg's B12 oil for some time now and find them to be very good. One squirt a day is too much for me so I apply just a half squirt a day to keep the delivery rate as even as possible. It is easy enough with the newish mixed oil container to get a drop at a time. For the older container, I put a squirt in a small metal cap and then take what I need.

I found excessive B12 caused various symptoms including breathlessness - which I can fix using potassium. Intriguingly, when I used too much B12 oil I also got very distinct symptoms of B12 deficiency. It was almost as if the excess B12 somehow clogged the pathways with the result that less net B12 was available (to convert homocysteine to methionine).

On closer inspection, it appeared that I was not recycling B12 (through the MSR pathway) and saw I was getting a beneficial boost a few hours after applying oil but later have symptoms of deficiency for most of the day.

I added in all Greg's favourite cofactors (iodine, selenium and moybdenum as well as multidosing B2) to produce FMN and FAD for the MSR pathway and even took SAM-e as that too is need on the MSR pathway but never got any long lasting benefit from these.

 

[Busson]

And I found the shot of the B12 oil would often cause a temporary wave of tiredness a few hours after rubbing it onto my skin, this tiredness lasting for about 4 hours. But the tiredness is prevented if I take around 400 mg or more of oral potassium with the B12. I believe the potassium helps prevent the hypokalemia that B12 can cause. So consider potassium if you experience this temporary increased tiredness.

@Hip I had the same experience and potassium helped a great deal. In fact, as I increased my dose of B12 oil, its adverse effect lasted longer and longer until I it became present most of the time. I am puzzling whether the potassium supplement was actually helping shift potassium into a different place but my knowledge on how potassium is absorbed, stored and used inside and outside the cell is too poor.

Taking folate (as methyl folate or even folic acid) would help ease some of the symptoms for a short while. I started to think that whatever was causing my increased need for potassium (and I have seen several vastly different theories) was one of the factors which interfered with my body's proper use of B12. I ended up taking all manner of additional supplements to make up the apparent shortfall in B12 although the most telling ones were l-methionine and SAM-e as they put the focus on poor transmethylation.

 

[Busson]

Anyways is there any chance that you might try out one of the liquids and compare them to the oil? (Living in germany makes it very hard to get hands on greg's oil myself because of customs otherwise I would test it myself).

@NotThisGuy I am in the UK and get reliable deliveries of Greg's oils. He uses tracked DHL and it takes very approximately 6 or 7 working days to receive the package.

As you're in Germany, have you come across VitaBay's methylcobalamin skin cream on Amazon? It is made there and packs a decent punch at 5,000 micrograms per 0.8 ml. It is also relatively cheap. I have tried this and there is no doubt that it delivers a significant dose of B12 into the body. However I personally discovered a greater need for adenosylcobalamin more than for methylcobalamin which is what this cream contains. This preference is probably a personal quirk of mine rather than something everyone will have.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Ultra-high dose methylcobalamin has been shown to promote nerve regeneration, and shown to protect against glutamate-induced neurotoxicity. And high dose methylcobalamin is known to boost natural killer cell and CD8 cell immunity. However, whether any of those mechanisms can explain the benefits of high dose B12 for ME/CFS is anyone's guess.

Thanks for the great links. I would add that high-dose B12 may also have an anti-inflammatory effect:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22588629

If you take a 1 mcg oral dose of B12, 56% of that will be absorbed with the aid of intrinsic factor; but as you increase the dosage, B12 absorption dramatically decreases because with higher doses the very limited capacity of intrinsic factor is exceeded. Ref: here.

An excellent under-appreciated point. If you follow the references, it also mentions that only ~1.2% of an oral dose will be passively absorbed without intrinsic factor.

 

[outdamnspot]

I would guess the B12 oil on its own would be OK, though possibly might not be as effective. You already have those essential vitamin and mineral cofactors in your body; the idea of supplementing with them is just to ensure that you have enough of them.

There may be a possible "dark side" to methylcobalamin though: there are occasional stories of even single doses of methylcobalamin triggering new allergies, multiple chemical sensitivity, and arthritis. These side effects may be rare, but perhaps worth mentioning.

That's a little worrying, since I already struggle with MCS and severe food intolerances; however, I have taken high-dose methyl b12 in the past without incident (it just crashed me).

 

[HABS93]

Note that Greg stressed the importance of taking vitamin B2 20 mg daily with the vitamin B12 oils.

And in addition, taking each day the cofactors: molybdenum 100 to 300 mcg, iodine 150 to 300 mcg and selenium 55 to 200 mcg.

The selenium he says should be in the form of sodium selenite (Twinlab have a sodium selenite supplement); he says the selenomethionine form of selenium is less effective for B12 cofactor purposes. Note that selenITE is not to be confused with selenATE.

One supplement recommended by Greg that contains all the above cofactors is Life Extension's Two-Per-Day Multivitamin and Mineral (though note that this contains alpha lipoic acid, which some ME/CFS patients react badly to).

These minerals are needed to convert vitamin B2 into its two active forms: FAD (flavin adenine dinucleotide) and FMN (flavin mononucleotide). FMN is also called riboflavin-5′-phosphate (R5P). Without these minerals, he said you can get a functional deficiency of B2, where although your B2 levels are normal, not enough B2 is transformed into the active FMN and FAD forms.

Greg said without FMN and FAD, you cannot convert from one type of B12 to another, and you cannot cycle B12.

He thinks people do not recover from ME/CFS because of a lack of B12 and a functional B2 deficiency. He told me he knows many who got rid of their ME/CFS they had for over 10 years using his protocol of B12 oil plus the above cofactors.

I have been taking the above cofactors daily while using the B12 oil. However, I am not observing any cumulative improvements in my ME/CFS since I started taking the B12 oil and cofactors at the beginning of Nov 2018 (though I only take the B12 oil once every 3 days, because daily administration can cause me overstimulation).

@Hip So the life's extension you can take to supplement the selenium and iodine ? Just trying to make sure I'm buying the right things .

 

[Hip]

Yes, Life Extension Two-Per-Day tablets have all the cofactor ingredients recommended by Greg, and at the right doses, which you can see from the label:

Life Extension Two-Per-Day Tablets Ingredients:

One possible issue is that Life Extension Two-Per-Day tablets contain alpha lipoic acid 25 mg, which is not a high dose, but some ME/CFS patients react badly to ALA; it's believed those with high mercury levels in their tissues may react badly, due to ALA chelating and redistributing the mercury.

 

[HABS93]

Thank you so much ! I couldn't find the label but should of Google images it. Sorry for the amount of questions in asking . In just very new to learning about these things

 

[lafarfelue]

Sorry for the amount of questions

Don't feel bad about asking questions. There is a lot to figure out and it can be extremely hard work.

Thankfully we have many well educated (often self educated!) and thoughtful people here, who are extremely helpful and patient (such as @Hip! thank you!). We're all in the same or similar boats and nearly everyone is keen to help and share information where/if they are able.

 

[HABS93]

@Hip So the life's extension you can take to supplement the selenium and iodine ? Just trying to make sure I'm buying the right things .

@Hip
So I tried this method I felt like I drank a energy drink alittle bit. Is this normal for first try ?

 

[Hip]

So I tried this method I felt like I drank a energy drink alittle bit. Is this normal for first try ?

Are you saying that you tried the B12 oil, and you noticed an increase in mental energy and concentration? Yes, this is what I found B12oil does within hours of applying a dose.

 

[HABS93]

Mental energy. The concentration increased. I had the co factors added in as well . Is this recommended everyday ?

 

[BeADocToGoTo1]

Thanks for the info on transdermal B12, that will be particularly helpful for those that have issues with absorbing B12. I wish I had known about it years ago instead of the 'fun' injections into the muscle...I would take the oil over a needle any day .

I wanted to know why I was B12 insufficient in the first place, and so in case it might help, here are a few tests that I had done.

Antiparietal Cell Antibody (APCA), Methylmalonic Acid (MMA), Intrinsic Factor Antibody (IFA), Genova Diagnostics FMV, Homocysteine, SIBO, Candida overgrowth and exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (EPI) tests.

 

[outdamnspot]

I've been trying the oil for the past 4 days; so far, results are mixed but my condition is very unstable anyway. I don't take any additional cofactors and am primarily consuming red meat (which contains some folate, according to cronometer).

I'm hesitant to experiment with extra supplements but if we don't take M-Folate with the B12, do we risk creating a folate deficiency? My impression was that folate without b12 was more harmful than visa versa.

 

[Hipsman]

Thank you for this information, I'll get this oil next week
@Hip, do I have to take B2 separately from Life Extension Two-Per-Day tablets?
If so would it be ok to take Vitamin B Complex along Life Extension Two-Per-Day tablets?
Can you link B complex that you are using, thanks again.