Very noticeable improvements in brain fog using Dr Greg Russell-Jones's transdermal B12 oils (which provide a similar dose to B12 injections)

[pamojja]

@Hip did you ever try to mix the pure Methylcobalamin powder with DSMO, and apply it that way transdermally?

 

[Hip]

How long does $50 15 ml of that dermal B12 oil last? About two weeks?

It depends on how frequently you dose. If you take one dose every day, then one $50 bottle of Greg's B12 oil will last about 50 to 60 days.

But I find I can get away with taking the oil only once every 3 days, so then one $50 bottle will last 180 days (half a year). So that's actually reasonable value: $50 for 6 months worth of treatment, or about $8 per month.

People that want the lowest cost B12 should look into HotVapes B12 ecig juice. It is a cyanocobalamin form so not the greatest for bioavailability. https://hotvapes.com/products/vitamin-b12?variant=1579982225433

My favorite B12 ecig is from Breathe. It is methylcobalamine so very bioavailable.
http://breatheb12.com
They often have coupons and sales on their email list.
It costs roughly about $15 per month.

Very interesting, I did not realize that commercial B12 e-cigarettes were now available. One forum member invented the e-cigarette method of taking B12 four years ago (see his original thread here).

Looks like the http://breatheb12.com B12 e-cigarette product costs $45 for 90 effective doses of 0.3 mg methylcobalamin (assuming 100% bioavailability via vaping).

Whereas the B12 oil costs $50 for 60 effective doses of 2 mg methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin (assuming 80%transdermal bioavailability). So you are getting much higher doses of B12 with the oil.

 

[Hip]

@Hip did you ever try to mix the pure Methylcobalamin powder with DSMO, and apply it that way transdermally?

Surprisingly enough, this study found that vitamin B12 dissolved in ethanol had higher a transdermal absorption than B12 dissolved in DMSO. DMSO was found no better than water for promoting B12 transdermal absorption. Which is unusual, because DMSO is often effective at transporting compounds across the skin.

But even with ethanol, I doubt you will get anywhere near the 80% B12 transdermal absorption that you get with the microemulsion penetration enhancer technology found in the B12 oils.

 

[Hip]

Do you have amalgams or any other suspected mercury toxicity?

As a precaution, I had around 8 mercury amalgam fillings removed over 12 years ago at the beginning of my ME/CFS. I did not notice anything as a result.

I've not been tested for mercury levels, but I never have any problems taking high doses of alpha lipoic acid (anecdotally even one dose of ALA can cause substantial problems for those with high mercury, due to the fact ALA can carry mercury into the brain).

 

[bjl218]

I had some long email conversations with Greg about the whole topic of B2 and cofactors. I wondered if taking a FMN supplement like Source Naturals Coenzymated B2 would obviate the need for the cofactors he mentioned. I could never quite get him to answer that question for some reason.

 

[Hip]

I wondered if taking a FNM supplement like Source Naturals Coenzymated B2 would obviate the need for the cofactors he mentioned. I could never quite get him to answer that question for some reason.

That's something I asked Greg about also: whether taking a flavin mononucleotide (also called riboflavin-5′-phosphate) supplement would help. This is one of the two active forms of vitamin B2 (the other active form, flavin adenine dinucleotide, unfortunately is not available as a supplement).

Greg told me that a flavin mononucleotide supplement is a waste of time, because "there are enzymes in the gut that simply cleave off the phosphate and you are left with riboflavin". In other words, these gut enzymes convert any flavin mononucleotide supplement you take back to regular vitamin B2 before you even get a chance to absorb it.

However, I wonder if a flavin mononucleotide (riboflavin-5′-phosphate) supplement would be beneficial if applied transdermally? Or as a rectal suppository. That way you would avoid those enzymes in the gut.

The molecular weight of flavin mononucleotide is 456 daltons, which is just about within the 500 dalton limit for transdermal absorption across the skin, so it should be absorbed transdermally, and will probably be easily absorbed rectally. Although you may end up looking rather orange if you put it on your skin!


Perhaps you could actually mix in some flavin mononucleotide powder into the B12 oil before you apply to the skin, as the penetration enhancer in the oil might possibly also help the flavin mononucleotide to get absorbed (though I am not sure about that).

In any case, if even you can get flavin mononucleotide across the skin and into the bloodstream, you would still need the B2 and the minerals in order to make flavin adenine dinucleotide.

 

[bjl218]

This was what I was confused about and what I never really got an answer to. From what I've been able to gather, FMN converts to FAD. See https://www.sciencedirect.com/topic...s-and-molecular-biology/flavin-mononucleotide

If that's true then you'd be skipping the conversion of riboflavin to FMN, but you'd still get the FAD. Plus the sublingual B2 helps to bypass the gut.

"Flavin mononucleotide (FMN) is formed first by the action of riboflavin kinase on riboflavin. FMN is then converted to flavin adenine dinucleotide (FAD) by the action of FAD pyrophosphorylasewith ATP."

 

[sb4]

@Hip I took this https://uk.iherb.com/pr/source-naturals-coenzymated-b-2-sublingual-60-tablets/1036 under the idea that sublingual absorbtion would avoid the phosphate clevage issue. Do you think this is legit?

 

[Hip]

@Hip I took this https://uk.iherb.com/pr/source-naturals-coenzymated-b-2-sublingual-60-tablets/1036 under the idea that sublingual absorbtion would avoid the phosphate clevage issue. Do you think this is legit?

I should think you will get some absorbed sublingually; but the problem with the sublingual route is that saliva will eventually wash away the substance after 10 or 20 minutes. Suppositories might be better, because they can be slowly absorbed by rectal mucous membranes over the whole day.

 

[Rooney]

I agree that these oils are great and easier to use than absorbing a pill in the mouth or inj. Strong potassium need right afterword but that got better when I added B1 and B2. I used the combo Greg suggests. Think I'll add these minerals too, Hip. Thank you.

My neurologist complained that my b12 lab was way too high. My story - I have MTR++ mutation so I asked for a lithium (a mineral) lab per Amy Yasko... 0 lithium in my blood. Just started lithium orate 5 to 10 mg, so I'm hoping to get better methylation as she said lithium is a B12 transporter and it will get the vitamin into the cells. We all need some and usually get it in drinking water, mineral water.
In her video presentation on lithium, high B12 in the blood is an indication of no lithium. I'm a "lithium dumper".

I'm tired of playing doctor. Years and years of B12, but lacking the mineral I need.

 

[Aurelius]

I just checked the vitamins that I take on a daily basis. They include 125mcg of B12 and state that this is 5000% of the recommended dose. Now getting a 2000mcg dose is then much higher than what doctors recommend.

But still you get a positive effect from it. What do you guys think is the mechanic behind this? Is this flooding of Vit B12 forcing the cells to take some of it up when otherwise they would reject it (due to sickness)?

 

[Jackdaw]

Glad it’s helping people but it is way, way too big a dose for me. Sublingual might not be an effective form but even 10ug of hydroxy b12 makes me ill. When I was just housebound and not bedbound a piece of a methyl b12 sublingual tablet (about 150ug) made me bedbound for a days. I find it frustrating that most quality vitamins come in massive doses that I can’t go near. I am deficient in b12 and b2 amongst others but can hardly take any without inducing a crash. The stuff that has the daily amounts is always the poor quality cyanocobalamin ilk.

I am interested that b12 impacts aldosterone. Does anyone know more on that?

 

[Griipir]

@Aurelius B12 that is included in multivitamin tablets might not do you any good.

7 years ago when I first got ill I tried different supplements. Among them were l-carnitine and a bottle of sublingual methylcobalamin. It had no effect whatsoever besides rising B12 levels in my blood.

After that I just kept taking a multivitamin that had B12 in it to ward off any possible deficiencies.

A few months ago I decided to experiment again and had a huge reaction to l-carnitine fumarate. World became colourful, head cleared up a lot etc. Did some research to find a reason to that reaction and then took a small dose of Enzymatic Therapy`s sublingual methylcobalamin. Had a big reaction to that too.

Based on my experience and from what I have read in this forum I can say there is something in this illness that often causes B12 deficiency. I can also say that multivitamin does not cover that need. I have taken 200 mcg (about 8000 % of daily value) of methylcobalamin in my multivitamin and iron tablets every single day for the last 7 years and developed a B12 deficiency during that time.

I can double my multivitamin dosage and still have no reaction, although I theoretically am getting 350 mcg of methylcobalamin.

From Enzymatic Therapy`s methylcobalamin even 100 mcg daily caused horrible insomnia at first. So have been titrating up from crumbs and have gotten to 125 mcg daily after two months. My world has remained colourful.

 

[bjl218]

Conventional medicine docs would say exactly that. Complementary medicine docs might say that very high levels of B12 in the blood indicate that the B12 is not actually getting where it needs to go--into the cells.

My neurologist complained that my b12 lab was way too high.

 

[Hip]

I just checked the vitamins that I take on a daily basis. They include 125mcg of B12 and state that this is 5000% of the recommended dose. Now getting a 2000mcg dose is then much higher than what doctors recommend.

Your gut will not be able to absorb anywhere near 125 mcg of B12. When you take that dose, you are probably only absorbing a few mg. This is because oral vitamin B12 can only be absorbed with the help of intrinsic factor, which is secreted by cells in the stomach. But very little intrinsic factor is produced.

If you take a 1 mcg oral dose of B12, 56% of that will be absorbed with the aid of intrinsic factor; but as you increase the dosage, B12 absorption dramatically decreases because with higher doses the very limited capacity of intrinsic factor is exceeded. Ref: here.

This is why if you want very high B12 doses, you have to look at other routes of administration such as B12 injections or B12 transdermal oils, or possibly B12 e-cigarettes.

But still you get a positive effect from it. What do you guys think is the mechanic behind this? Is this flooding of Vit B12 forcing the cells to take some of it up when otherwise they would reject it (due to sickness)?

Nobody knows for sure why high doses of B12 help ME/CFS. Part of the problem is that we do not know what causes ME/CFS and its symptoms such as brain fog in the first place.

But generally speaking, the effect of any supplement or drug is often proportional to its dose, and vitamins are no exception. The various physiological effects that a vitamin has in the body do not become saturated once you reach the dose that prevents deficiency; doses beyond that which prevents deficiency thus have further effects.

Ultra-high dose methylcobalamin has been shown to promote nerve regeneration, and shown to protect against glutamate-induced neurotoxicity. And high dose methylcobalamin is known to boost natural killer cell and CD8 cell immunity. However, whether any of those mechanisms can explain the benefits of high dose B12 for ME/CFS is anyone's guess.

Dr Sarah Myhill has a page on the rationale for using vitamin B12 in CFS, but reading it does not leave us much wiser in terms of pinpointing the mechanism of action.

Prof Carl-Gerhard Gottfries observed in a study that an injection of 1 mg of vitamin B12 given every 4 days plus folic acid 7 mg daily helps ME/CFS. Gottfries found methylcobalamin injections give better results than hydroxocobalamin.

 

[talkinghead]

n fact Greg says B12 oil may be better than injections, because the B12 oil provides a slow release mechanism as it penetrates the skin, allowing the body to better utilize the B12, compared to the short-lived spike in B12 levels that you get from a B12 injection.

Isn’t B12 injected IM so it’s also slow release?

But I’m definitely going to try this, thanks for the tip.

 

[Hip]

Isn’t B12 injected IM so it’s also slow release?

But I’m definitely going to try this, thanks for the tip.

I am not sure if intramuscular injections are slow release. Anyway I was injecting my hydroxocobalamin subcutaneously.


In any case, the B12 doses you get from a vial of injectable B12 are typically in the 500 to 1000 mcg range (and are only one form of B12). Whereas one shot of the B12 oils provides around 2000 mcg of systemically available B12 (and provides two forms of B12 in the same shot: methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin).

It's probably a good idea to also take the cofactors recommended by Greg (which are all to be found in this supplement that he suggests: Life Extension's Two-Per-Day Multivitamin and Mineral).

And I found the shot of the B12 oil would often cause a temporary wave of tiredness a few hours after rubbing it onto my skin, this tiredness lasting for about 4 hours. But the tiredness is prevented if I take around 400 mg or more of oral potassium with the B12. I believe the potassium helps prevent the hypokalemia that B12 can cause. So consider potassium if you experience this temporary increased tiredness. You get about 400 mg of potassium in a banana.

 

[CCC]

@Hip Welcome to the B12 Oils group!

Along with @garyfritz , my son has probably been one of the heavier users of the oil here - up to three slurps a day of various combinations of the methyl and adensyl B12. (although, spray would be a more accurate word as it can splatter a bit)

As you have found, my son notices a rapid neurological response to the oil. He is currently taking only the straight adenosyl at a dose of 1 slurp a day. The methyl B12 causes issues - nausea and loss of appetite. It could be the low K you have identified, so maybe we should try that. (Irritability is our usual low K symptom.)

In case you are interested, we have noticed that 1 slurp of the adensyl oil replaces 3 x 8.6mg sublingual dibencozide tablets. It's a fairly reliable measure that has held up for about 2 years now. We never tried injecting B12 because my son's body really can tell the difference between the different forms, and the adenosyl is what he has needed.

In answer to other questions - we have no mercury issues that we know of. My son has no fillings, doesn't like fish.

EDIT: But, he did very badly on that Life Extensions tablet you mentioned - possibly because of the ALA in it, but there are also other issues (the vitamin A is beta-carotene, which appears to cause problems for some people).

 

[Hip]

@Hip Welcome to the B12 Oils group!

Thank you! I saw the threads (like this one) about the B12 oils years ago, but because I had previously observed very little effect from hydroxocobalamin injections (an inactive form of B12), I just assumed that B12 was something that does not work for my ME/CFS.

But once I tried the active forms of B12, Greg's methylcobalamin plus adenosylcobalamin B12 oil, in addition to the cofactors recommended by Greg (B2, selenium, iodine and molybdenum), I noticed significant improvements in brain fog.


I did not know that the Life Extension multivitamin and mineral contains alpha lipoic acid 25 mg. As you say, that might cause problems for some ME/CFS patients, as ALA can redistribute mercury to the brain, and some ME/CFS patients experience a major crash on taking ALA.

 

[RU72]

Very interesting discussion! Unfortunately, in addition to nearly 10 years of unrelenting physical exhaustion, I have had - perhaps congenital - cognitive exhaustion for much longer. Curiously, I too have tested high for B12 in the past, without any adjuncts, but this has always been dismissed. Me thinks hmmm.