The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Rand56]

I just started on the PS yesterday. Not knowing how my stomach would react, I just started out with 1/2 teaspoon. Had no problems with it and no problems with a 1/2 teaspoon a couple more times yesterday. On my fourth go round with a half teaspoon, figuring since I had no problems with the previous 3, I'd do another one. Not too long after I had some slight nausea but no real stomach distress nor anymore gas than normal.

Anyone else get some slight nausea starting out on it? I can't think of anything else I did that could have contributed to the slight nausea I felt.

 

[Sasha]

Anyone else get some slight nausea starting out on it? I can't think of anything else I did that could have contributed to the slight nausea I felt.

I don't recall anything but then I started out marginally slower.

 

[Asklipia]

Glad you're feeling so well, Asklipia!

Thank you!!! Hoping the same for you and every one!

 

[Crux]

Hi @adreno ;

Here's a link to a metametrix interpretive guide:
http://www.metametrix.com/files/test-menu/interpretive-guides/GI-CDSA-CDSA2-Interpretive-Guide.pdf

I think it's good and thorough. One of the most common problematic clostridia bacteria is C.diff. It usually presents with diarrhea, among other things. It's often treated with antibiotics, but since they wipe out the good bacteria, many people contract it again. ( I read that it may be a spore former, so it is sometimes treated with a type of pulse dosing.)

The metametrix guide brings up berberine and carvacrol as treatment. ( goldenseal and oil of oregano)
Some people have had good results using the probiotic, S. boulardii to replace beneficials.

The other night, when I felt crappy after trying a high dose of the prescript assist, I dosed myself with goldenseal tincture. I read somewhere that it will wipe out bacillus subtilis. I did feel better.

I would guess that we may need to go with less of the fermented substances for now. I don't take much.

I hope you can continue the RS. I think skipping some days is a good idea if it causes any prolonged GI distress.

 

[adreno]

Thanks @Crux , I have tried S. boulardi before, but it caused my behind to itch, and quite a lot of thrush in my mouth. It's really a yeast, not a probiotic. But perhaps it was the MOS included in the caps (Jarrow) which caused me problems.

I do not have any serious GI distress of any kind, I'm a just hoping that improving gut health can improve immunity, dysautonomia and HPA issues. Those are my main problems.

 

[Crux]

Yeah @adreno ;
I only brought up the S. boulardii because of the metametrix guide, and some studies I ran across. Many of them recommend L. acidophilous and other probiotics.

Personally, I too had trouble with s.boulardii. It used to be that probiotics helped, but now, not so.

Research is finding more about gut health and its effects on hormones...everything. I feel like it's my own final frontier.
(what's left?)

I think the Jaminets' have some good points about diet. I don't know if you've checked out their site.

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/the-diet/

p.s. I thought I might mention that improved gut health increases our ability to produce vitamins, especially the B's. ( I'm sure you know this), but I had to stop all of the B's, except B12, because I was having the same side effects as the probiotics. ( even the shingles outbreak) In my case, I think this is from the dysbiosis.)

 

[Lou]

Correct. And in order to get energy from gluconeogenesis, you need to eat a lot of protein. I believe your body resorts to "muscle wasting" f you don't eat enough protein (it finds the protein it needs from your muscles).



Correct. A low carb diet is believed to inhibit the conversion from T4 to T3.



PHD-style eating sounds like the way to go, if you ask me. Even if it's too complicated, just use that carb list I gave you as a mental guide. It's not all potatoes/rice. I personally eat a banana every day so that I don't have to eat quite as many safe starches.

First, thanks very much for this information. It's actually not now the carb list that's complicated, I'm getting a fairly good handle on what to eat.

However, in context of this entire thread you surely are not telling me to eat more protein to maintain gluconeogenesis, but rather to go phd to try and re-attain a state of glycolysis, right? Thanks.

 

[Lou]

Thanks, MEsci. Don't you think this phd diet will address leaky gut, as well?

When I first tried methylation, Yasko's was a complete flop. Reacted badly to many of her suggestions, and think this is when I tried glutamine. I recall it being the worst of the lot as far as brain fog, feeling awful. Any idea why?

I'll give the carnitine supplements another try. Thanks, again.

 

[Ripley]

However, in context of this entire thread you surely are not telling me to eat more protein to maintain gluconeogenesis, but rather to go phd to try and re-attain a state of glycolysis, right? Thanks.

Correct! I'm saying that you should basically follow the PHD laid out on this page (which is based on an average 2000 calorie diet):

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/the-diet/

So, if you follow that graphic, and eat 0.5 to 1 pound of meat — with plenty of starches — your body will only need to create about 200 calories from gluconeogenesis — which isn't a significant tax on the body. The majority of your energy will come from glycolysis.

 

[Ripley]

I too am stopping the PA for a while. It's been a week now, and I must say I feel worse, rather than better. Increased fatigue, especially of the muscles, anxiety, headache, brain fog, worsened sleep. It doesn't seem to abate either. I doubt it's a detox reaction.

Sorry to hear that. Sounds like you and Crux are already well aware of what to try, but I agree that PA should not create lactate buildup. However, it's not inconceivable that an SBO could create a waste product that co-feeds lactic acid species. Nevertheless, there is another suggestion from Kresser for SIBO and probiotics (though he usually prefers Prescript Assist because it doesn't have D-lactate-producing probiotic species):

Probiotics are actually a mixed bag with SIBO because SIBO often involves an overgrowth of D-lactate-producing probiotic species, and that causes a buildup of D-lactate in the gut, and a lot of the symptoms associated with SIBO are caused by that. So, you want to avoid in many cases taking any probiotics that have D-lactate-forming species like Lactobacillus acidophilus, which is, of course, one of the most common probiotics that people take. There’s a D-lactate-free product sold by Custom Probiotics that’s helpful.

So, that might help.

 

[Ripley]

Thanks, MEsci. Don't you think this phd diet will address leaky gut, as well?

Yes. It will. That's partly why it's able to cure diseases. Your gut flora will have food, finally, and the mucin degraders will diminish and won't be chewing away at your intestines.

I'll give the carnitine supplements another try. Thanks, again.

Carnitine is unnecessary with a nourishing diet, unless you are eating a diet that is missing nutrition. Jaminet (author of the Perfect Health Diet) was asked about carnitine supplementation and said:

What is your opinion of supplementing with acetyl-L-carnitine (ALC)? Can it be of benefit making ketones or is it of harm in this process? I´ve read on my MCT-oil bottle that if/when you have a great intake of the MCT oil, one should supplement with ALC.

Paul Jaminet August 28, 2012 at 5:43 pm

• Well, vitamin C is an ALC precursor and eating a fat-rich diet promotes ALC generation, so I think everyone following our diet+supplements should have plenty of natural ALC. And the supplements are kind of expensive. I don’t think they’re necessary. But I don’t think they’re toxic either, so if you want to try them go ahead. But I doubt they’ll have any discernible effect.

 

[Asklipia]

Reacted badly to many of her suggestions, and think this is when I tried glutamine. I recall it being the worst of the lot as far as brain fog, feeling awful. Any idea why?

Hi Lou,
This happened to me too when I tried glutamine. This I believe is because of a "paradoxical glutamine deficiency".
When we take too much glutamate (or maybe generate too much because we have bacteria or yeasts that do so), there is a compensation mechanism and we do not have enough glutamine and the gut suffers.
The brain too.
So many of us cannot send glutamine to the gut by just taking supplements.
L-glutamine supplements when they are manufactured contain also free glutamates.
Not the case when you make your own broth as I explained here and here.

Sorry, I could not resist playing with the linking device!

Also there is a conversion of glutamates to glutamines and the reverse too (even though some people hell bent on selling glutamates pretend it is not true). In the same way that eating fake folates creates a paradoxical folate deficiency, so too taking glutamates induces a glutamine deficiency.

More about this here.
Be well!
Asklipia
FFP

 

[adreno]

However, it's not inconceivable that an SBO could create a waste product that co-feeds lactic acid species. Nevertheless, there is another suggestion from Kresser for SIBO and probiotics (though he usually prefers Prescript Assist because it doesn't have D-lactate-producing probiotic species):

Well, it's weird that my metametrix test shows low lactobacillus, and I'm still intolerant to lactate, but perhaps it can be explained by SIBO. Custom probiotics are insanely expensive, especially when you add in a $40 postage charge.

I'm considering a probiotic that contains only bifido bacteria, such as this or this. Or I might simply go without probiotics at all. I took my regular probiotic last night with RS, and feel much better already than I did on PA, even though that one contains 12 billion acidophilus bacteria.

 

[Ripley]

Or I might simply go without probiotics at all. I took my regular probiotic last night with RS, and feel much better already

The additional probiotics are definitely not necessary. I agree. I would try a few days without any probiotics and see how you feel. I would also try taking two days off from RS completely and then restarting (as recommended by Richard Nikoley). That can help give things a rest.

Another option is to just take a probiotic less often. Maybe once or twice a week. Probiotics are just like spreading grass seeds on a lawn. Good for introducing new species and filling in holes, but it's the fertilizer that makes the grass turn green. So, skipping probiotics is fine if they are causing problems.

Truthfully fermented foods are an excellent way to obtain high numbers and diversity of probiotics but they can be a mixed bag for people with SIBO. In general, focussing on diversity is key, rather than just a few strains from a supplement.

 

[Lou]

Hi Lou,
This happened to me too when I tried glutamine. This I believe is because of a "paradoxical glutamine deficiency".
When we take too much glutamate (or maybe generate too much because we have bacteria or yeasts that do so), there is a compensation mechanism and we do not have enough glutamine and the gut suffers.
The brain too.
So many of us cannot send glutamine to the gut by just taking supplements.
L-glutamine supplements when they are manufactured contain also free glutamates.
Not the case when you make your own broth as I explained here and here.

Sorry, I could not resist playing with the linking device!

Also there is a conversion of glutamates to glutamines and the reverse too (even though some people hell bent on selling glutamates pretend it is not true). In the same way that eating fake folates creates a paradoxical folate deficiency, so too taking glutamates induces a glutamine deficiency.

More about this here.
Be well!
Asklipia
FFP

Thanks, Asklipia

Got any other ideas for anti glutamate relief? Are broths the only way? Not sure I could even find a pig's foot, much less cook up that brew you describe. I can barely cook coffee.

Nice to see you here, you always add much to the discussion!

 

[Asklipia]

Thanks, Asklipia

Got any other ideas for anti glutamate relief? Are broths the only way? Not sure I could even find a pig's foot, much less cook up that brew you describe. I can barely cook coffee.

Nice to see you here, you always add much to the discussion!

Thanks @Lou for the kind words!
Unfortunately all my solutions are utterly D. I. Y.
Not that I have not tried otherwise. This just delayed our recovery.
We are now condemned to a healthy 17th century princely life. Without the servants though, that's a problem. We could fork out for a couple, but nowadays none are available accepting that kind of life or even fit enough to help in a big way.

All hope is not lost because I suppose that if enough people get sick in the near future (no doubt whatsoever about that ), a solution will be found. Maybe just in time for when I turn 80? So that we may put down our tools.

To add something to the resistant starch discussion:
Yesterday afternoon for high tea : Pirates' Pancakes
In a big bowl:
- 100 g brown or white rice flour
- 100 g chestnut flour
- 2 big eggs
- 60 g of real sugar
- 2 vanilla pods (slice, scrape the inside to add to the mix, keep the empty pods for another recipe)
- 330 g of real milk (if possible organic and full fat) this is around a third of a litre
- the rind of a whole (organic) lemon/ half orange grated
- a small glass of real rum (made from cane juice, not from cane wood like most of what is sold as rum). For example here.
- 60 g of real butter that you melt in the pan that will be used for cooking. You pour it in the mix but the pan will be oiled.

When the mix is ready, leave it for 15 mns before making the pancakes (one small laddleful of mix in the hot pan, spread it around by moving the pan, wait until you see the edge is dark brown then turn your pancake over for cooking the other side).

What can go wrong :
- if you are not careful mixing well the ingredients slowly one by one, you could get flour lumps ;
- if your pancakes are not cooked enough you may get stomach upset or a bloated feeling - hiccups!;
- you drink the rest of the bottle of rum while making the pancakes;
- you go sugar-crazy and add jam, honey etc on top. NO;
- neighbours are attracted by the smell and you get to eat only one pancake if that.

You should leave 4 in the fridge for the next morning's breakfast (for two people), when the starches get even more resistant if I understood well. To get them doubly resistant you could even warm them up (NOT in a microwave, but in the same pan which you left unwashed during the night exactly for that purpose). It must be so because it feels RIGHT.

Be well!
Asklipia
FFP

 

[South]

@adreno and @Ripley Could Adreno's earlier reaction be due to his high level of clostridia, rather than from any problems with lactic acid species? Here are two links related to resistant starch feeding clostridia.

Adreno - any thoughts? I wonder if clostridia overgrowth cause some of the side effects you described.

http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/23/1_MeetingAbstracts/719.6

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC92288/

 

[adreno]

@adreno and @Ripley Could Adreno's earlier reaction be due to his high level of clostridia, rather than from any problems with lactic acid species? Here are two links related to resistant starch feeding clostridia.

Adreno - any thoughts? I wonder if clostridia overgrowth cause some of the side effects you described.

http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/23/1_MeetingAbstracts/719.6

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC92288/

Interesting, I didn't know that. The main side effects I've had occured with Prescript-Assist, not RS, so it might not be a problem for me, but I can't tell for sure. I guess we will see if I get better or worse when I increase the RS.

 

[Ripley]

Interesting, I didn't know that. The main side effects I've had occured with Prescript-Assist, not RS, so it might not be a problem for me, but I can't tell for sure. I guess we will see if I get better or worse when I increase the RS.

I know I've recommended starting slow (to be absolutely safe) but from the n=1s it's worth sharing that many people are seeing some dramatic improvements from large "bolus" doses of potato starch (4-6 Tbsp at once). Don't try this at home until you know they can tolerate PS pretty well.

I only recently tried it and I can only imagine that it had to have dislodged some bacteria from my small intestine like Drain-O. I did feel good a few hours later. The main function of the bolus dose appears to be forcing the PS all the way down to the colon — rather than allowing much of it to ferment in the proximal end (closer to the small intestine).

http://freetheanimal.com/2013/12/dramatic-resistant-success.html

The basic protocol that Richard now recommends is you do one "Bolus" dose per day (4-6 Tbsp), for two days and then no PS for two days. Repeat as necessary. He has tried up to 8 Tbsp on himself, but even I would be scared to try that.

In a way, you probably end up getting a Butyrate rush and a small intestinal clearance in one. Most people have reported success with such bolus dosing, but it takes a lot of balls. Again, don't try this at home until you know you can some PS pretty well.

 

[adreno]

Most people have reported success with such bolus dosing, but it takes a lot of balls.

LOL, I've done scarier things than that