The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Crux]

Cool Ripley!

This is going to raise the roof over at Free the Animal.
I've seen links to your posts over there, from Duckdodgers.

Elevated glucose can take someone apart, piece by piece.

I haven't had glucose problems yet, and this good news may better my chances.

Better glucose control could benefit folks here, I believe.

 

[MeSci]

I think we may now have a good theory now as to why RS improves glucose control. This was literally just published the other day...

I was interested until I saw that this was a non-human study. It may not be at all relevant to humans. They are only relevant about 50% of the time on average.

My glucose levels seem fine. I don't know what they were like before the leaky-gut diet as I didn't have a glucose monitor then.

 

[Ripley]

I was interested until I saw that this was a non-human study. It may not be at all relevant to humans. They are only relevant about 50% of the time on average.

They have already found IGN in humans. From that same article:

In conclusion, we report a mechanism linking microbial degradation of dietary fiber into SCFAs and host nutrient sensing through induction of IGN. We show that IGN has a causal role in the metabolic benefits that have long been ascribed to fiber-enriched diets. This reveals a key mechanistic rationale by which SCFAs, and especially propionate, may positively influence host metabolism. Since both the beneficial effects of dietary fiber on glucose control (Mendeloff, 1977; Ray et al., 1983; Robertson et al., 2003, 2005) and IGN (Battezzati et al., 2004; Hayes et al., 2011; Mithieux, 2012) are known to be present in humans, these findings may open novel perspectives in the treatment as well as prevention of metabolic diseases. [LINK]

 

[MeSci]

They have already found IGN in humans. From that same article:

Ah, that's better! The mechanism in mice could well be different though.
Guess I must be doing something right anyway!

 

[Ripley]

Guess I must be doing something right anyway!

Well, I'm sure you are. You eat lots of greens after all — and the fiber in those greens is probably a source of some glucose benefits.

But, a few grams of PS can have a dramatic overnight shift in fasting blood glucose — often a 10-15mg/dL beneficial shift after one dose. And diabetics are seeing significant shifts as well. You can't get that kind of shift from eating a few big salads. So, we are talking about something very powerful with RS that needs to be explained. IGN seems to be the best explanation so far.

 

[Ripley]

This mental guide of RS2 to RS3 maybe helpful in terms of RS content of potatoes:

1 pound of raw potato = 4TBS of Bob's PS

1 pound of cooked and eaten hot potato = 1tsp of Bob's PS

1 pound of cooked, cooled, eaten cold potato = 1TBS of Bob's PS

1 pound of cooked, cooled, reheated potato = 1.25TBS of Bob's PS

1 pound of cooked, cooled, reheated, recooled, reheated = 1.5TBS of Bob'sPS

See the trend? Doesn't have to be cooked and cooled, the retrograde action keeps adding, but not much more after the first cycle. The reheating needs to be a quick, hot heat, not boiling.

Works the same with rice. [LINK]

Again, I don't recommend eating raw potato as a source of RS.

 

[Lou]

Alright, granted, I'm not likely to get big crocodile tears here for my problem, inability to gain weight, but it has its negatives as well. Others, @dannybex , for one, I believe have similar dysfunction. And, @Ripley my lack of a science background could easily cause me to use incorrect terms in trying to explain my plight and pose the proper questions. But, here I'll try, and will appreciate your thoughts, even if speculation, on the matter.

While already long having me/cfs, about ten years ago I had a bout with rhabdomyolsis from a prescription drug. Lost a lot of muscle quickly. Has been almost impossible to gain much back, and I'm wondering if usual low energy associated with me/cfs keeps me in a near or catabolic state and could partially explain the problem.

From what I've been reading here it seems at least part of it is that my primary fuel source must be coming from gluconeogenesis rather than glycolysis (right?, I'm not sure). Further adding to woes is that I have reduced ability in converting t4 to t3 and maybe that's the whole problem, inadequate supply of glycogen stored in the liver.

So, I've long had difficulty sorting this all out. Some of the information here can be a bit overwhelming. I will say this, since starting ps I do sense things may be changing on some basic level and I am hopeful.

Given my health conditions stated above, I guess what I'm asking is do you think what we're trying here may help? Do you think it's possible to actually regain a bit of muscle, or at least to attain a place where exercise doesn't break down muscle abnormally?

I know you're not a doctor, but any thoughts you may have are especially welcomed.

 

[Sasha]

@Ripley - although I've been lurking while this thread has been going on, I just wanted to thank you for posting about this and for all the time and trouble that you've put into your extremely informative posts. This stuff is fascinating.

After reading the thread when it began, I started supplementing my diet with RS. I live in the UK where the Bob's Mill product isn't currently available so I'm using Kocken's Potatismjol which I'm sourcing from Waitrose/Ocado. One of the commenters on Free the Animal did some research to indicate that it's potato starch, not flour, produced in the same way as the Bob's Mill starch and I'm convinced that it is, because it sinks to the bottom shortly after being mixed with water and has 80g carbohydrate per 100g.

I worked up, a teaspoon at a time, to 4 tbsp of starch. On the 11th day (that is, at an accumulated dose of 11 tsp, just shy of 4 tbsp) I started to notice a bitter taste in my mouth, especially while I was eating. I wondered if anyone else had noticed that, and what it means? I think I've read elsewhere that a bitter taste can indicate detoxing from heavy metals, though I don't know how well-established that is. I've no reason to think I have had particular exposure to heavy metals (I have very few dental fillings and none are mercury, for instance).

 

[Sasha]

Incidentally, I fancied knowing the state of my gut microbiome before and after my resistant starch experiment but didn't know how to get it tested here in the UK. The American Gut Project is only for US residents at the moment but there's another outfit, uBiome, who are also doing microbiome research in a crowdsourced way and have a similar deal whereby you send your sample off to them and pay them some money and they tell you what's in it while also making your data available for research. Here's an interesting TED talk about them.

You can ship your sample internationally because their sample containers are such that they've got an exemption from the usual regulations about transporting potential biohazards through the mail. You can (as I have) get a 'Gut plus one' test whereby you can send a sample from another site on your body - I'll be sending a nasal swab because I have chronic sinusitis. Sending in a faecal sample is apparently non-yuck and just involves wiping a swab across your used toilet paper.

 

[Ripley]

From what I've been reading here it seems at least part of it is that my primary fuel source must be coming from gluconeogenesis rather than glycolysis (right?, I'm not sure).

Correct. And in order to get energy from gluconeogenesis, you need to eat a lot of protein. I believe your body resorts to "muscle wasting" f you don't eat enough protein (it finds the protein it needs from your muscles).

Further adding to woes is that I have reduced ability in converting t4 to t3 and maybe that's the whole problem, inadequate supply of glycogen stored in the liver.

Correct. A low carb diet is believed to inhibit the conversion from T4 to T3.

I know you're not a doctor, but any thoughts you may have are especially welcomed.

PHD-style eating sounds like the way to go, if you ask me. Even if it's too complicated, just use that carb list I gave you as a mental guide. It's not all potatoes/rice. I personally eat a banana every day so that I don't have to eat quite as many safe starches.

 

[brenda]

I got some Bob's Mill from amazon.co.uk

 

[Sasha]

I got some Bob's Mill from amazon.co.uk

That's interesting - I see it's back! When I was trying to source it a few weeks ago it was unavailable anywhere in the UK (including Amazon) because of a problem with the wholesaler. In the meantime I found this Kockens stuff, which is cheaper (£1.70/500g) and easier for me to get (but might not be for anyone who can't access a Waitrose/Ocado). It's about £8.50 on Amazon, including p&p.

Actually, I don't know if it would be stocked in an actual Waitrose store - mine is coming from Ocado, which is Waitrose online and so probably has the entire range.

 

[Crux]

I stopped the RS2 and Prescript Assist for a couple of days to see what was going on. I determined that the probiotic was giving me trouble. It seems I build up too much lactic acid. This has happened many times from when I've taken them, or even fermented foods, acidic foods, so on. ( I get nerve pain, then a shingles outbreak.)

Although the pain stopped, I became more tired and less cheerful. Today, I added a Tbl. of plantain flour and half a green banana to my smoothie. I already feel better, and was able to walk 2 miles on the treadmill. This is good, great actually!

The Perfect Health Diet looks pretty doable. I've bought the book. ( I'll admit right now, though, that there are some things I'll do differently. Over these years I've tried to follow diets to a T, but I do have to customize things.)

My husband has been having some of the RS2, and has had no side effects, other than some increased flatulence...the fun type. He feels better with higher dosages.( ~ 3 Tbl. daily) He especially likes the vivid dreams. I think it's helping his mild depression; we've both been laughing alot more lately.

I've been giving my cats a little of the potato starch, along with diluted prescript assist probiotic. The 20 yr old female has better energy. The 10yr old male, and 12 yr old female, who have had allergies for years, are sneezing less, and most importantly, are not launching as many 'snot rockets' around the house.

I find that taking some extra zinc lessens the farting.

 

[Ripley]

I worked up, a teaspoon at a time, to 4 tbsp of starch. On the 11th day (that is, at an accumulated dose of 11 tsp, just shy of 4 tbsp) I started to notice a bitter taste in my mouth, especially while I was eating. I wondered if anyone else had noticed that, and what it means? I think I've read elsewhere that a bitter taste can indicate detoxing from heavy metals, though I don't know how well-established that is. I've no reason to think I have had particular exposure to heavy metals (I have very few dental fillings and none are mercury, for instance).

If it makes you feel any better, I'm having that same sharp bitter taste today too, now that you mention it. I have had some issues with heavy metals last year, and just noticed the bitter taste yesterday and today after "bolus" dosing. However, I also had a really salty meal last night and originally thought that's what it was until you mentioned it.

I also started eating a ton of greens in the past few days to up my fiber intake, and supposedly oxalates can have that salty-tatste-in-the-mouth effect. So maybe that's part of it. I might cut back my intake of oxalates for a few days.

Another thing I did was eat a lot of parsley yesterday, and lots of parsley has been known to have a chelating effect. So, that could be it too.

Easiest thing to do is stop taking PS for two days — a mini fast. A short break from PS seems to fix a lot of PS problems, from what I understand.

 

[Sasha]

If it makes you feel any better, I'm having that same sharp bitter taste today too, now that you mention it. I have had some issues with heavy metals last year, and just noticed the bitter taste yesterday and today after "bolus" dosing. However, I also had a really salty meal last night and originally thought that's what it was until you mentioned it.

That's interesting - I have quite a lot of salt on my meals to try to counter my orthostatic intolerance and I must start noticing if I'm only having the bitter taste when I'm eating salt. The effects of the RS might have altered my taste perception, perhaps.

It's not a problem as such - just wondering what it meant, if anything!

I'm also trying to up my fibre intake now that I'm aware of its role as a prebiotic.

I feel like one big experiment!

 

[Asklipia]

Thank you very much @Ripley for all this information which I believe will be extremely useful to many. Just by instinct I have been following a diet including RS and this has helped me I suppose since I feel now cured. Of course it could be the rest of the things I did or a combination. But I and my husband feel very well on a diet including these RS every day.

As to the metallic taste in the mouth I can confirm that this has happened every time I had a bowl of cooked and cooled sticky rice with a spoonful of butter. This is one of my foods of predilection. Before I got sick, eating such a bowlful would not give me this metallic taste. This started to happen together with the rest of the ME/CFS symptoms.
Which would point to a detox of some kind or other.
I had a mouthful of amalgams taken away about 12 years ago.

I still have this metallic taste when I eat two bowlfuls in a row (Yes I know, greedy...).
Your posts give me a justification for eating what I like!!!!!!
Risotto made with sticky rice, then cooled and next day fried like a fat pancake.
Be well and many thanks!
Asklipia

 

[Sasha]

I was paying attention last night to what I was eating when I was getting the metallic taste and actually I think it's everything - I even got it when drinking coconut water. Weird. Oh well!

Glad you're feeling so well, Asklipia!

 

[adreno]

@Crux , I too am stopping the PA for a while. It's been a week now, and I must say I feel worse, rather than better. Increased fatigue, especially of the muscles, anxiety, headache, brain fog, worsened sleep. It doesn't seem to abate either. I doubt it's a detox reaction.

It could be lactid acid buildup as you mention (fits the symptoms), but I thought PA didn't increase lactid acid? I've attached the part of my Metametrix test showing bacteria. Bacteriodes are in the middle range, lactid acid bacteria low, bifido normal, clostridia too high. What to make of this?

I think I felt better with a regular probiotic (Healthy Origins 30 billion), combined with RS, than I do on PA/RS. Perhaps I ate enough soil as a child, lol? It seems weird to me though. According to my test, lactid acid bacteria is low, but still I seem intolerant to anything that increases lactate. When I eat sauerkraut for instance, I feel awful (again, headache, fatigue, gas, anxiety, nausea, muscle pain).

 

[MeSci]

From what I've been reading here it seems at least part of it is that my primary fuel source must be coming from gluconeogenesis rather than glycolysis (right?, I'm not sure). Further adding to woes is that I have reduced ability in converting t4 to t3 and maybe that's the whole problem, inadequate supply of glycogen stored in the liver.

So, I've long had difficulty sorting this all out. Some of the information here can be a bit overwhelming. I will say this, since starting ps I do sense things may be changing on some basic level and I am hopeful.

Given my health conditions stated above, I guess what I'm asking is do you think what we're trying here may help? Do you think it's possible to actually regain a bit of muscle, or at least to attain a place where exercise doesn't break down muscle abnormally?

I'm not a doctor either but I'm a medical scientist; however, I'm not sure if that's relevant here as I am reporting my own experience.

Whilst after an initial stage of losing weight I later became overweight, I also lost a lot of ability to use my muscles. Part of this seemed (from perception) to be due to them being wrapped in visceral fat. I don't know if this is scientific though!

The good thing is that after about 6 months on a leaky-gut diet, which includes l-glutamine which can both heal the gut and increase muscle, I started taking 200 mg alpha-lipoic acid and 250 mg acetyl-l-carnitine a day, and to my delight my muscles started building up again. I can now use my abs, gluteal and pelvic muscles again and it is a lovely feeling!

I had already lost a lot of excess fat on the leaky-gut diet, and now it's been replaced with muscle.

Hopefully a corrective diet won't make you lose weight but normalise it. I don't know though.

 

[Crux]

Hi @adreno ;

I have alot to learn about this, so I'm going to search around today. I think it's really difficult to balance microbes and provide the best environment for them.

It may be that we just need the RS and dietary adjustments, rather than extra probiotics. I'm unsure. I love soil and gardening, but in recent years, I haven't been getting out very much.

Prescript Assist has been very effective for many, and the predominant strain, Bacillus Subtilis, is found in natto, and other good fermented foods. It has been used to make some types of antibiotics. But, there have been some cases of its overgrowth causing illness in some people.

I think your test is one of the most specific there is. So now, we're left with self-observation. Difficult, but we're used to that.

There are beneficial and pathogenic strains of clostridia, so I'll have a look, but meanwhile, I think suspending the probiotics is a good idea....for both of us!