MeSci
ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
- Messages
- 8,235
- Location
- Cornwall, UK
There are several threads on d-lactic acidosis, so if anyone wants to read up on this in connection with ME, do a title search for d-lactic acidosis.
The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?
- Thread starter Ripley
- Start date
There are several threads on d-lactic acidosis, so if anyone wants to read up on this in connection with ME, do a title search for d-lactic acidosis.
adreno
PR activist
- Messages
- 4,841
How would you know if you have that?
However, I'm pretty sure that while those individuals eat a low carb, ketogenic diet, I would imagine that they probably eat some complex carbs. In any case, even diabetics follow a ketogenic version of the PHD, with success, and just eat less safe starches. Since rice doesn't offer many fermentable fibers (you could literally extract most of the glucose by chewing it for an extra 20 seconds) I would think that rice would be a good source of glucose for those individuals and they would just skip the fermentable fibers. But, again, I'm not a doctor and don't know enough about it.
But, yes, I think those individuals would probably want to consider avoiding RS experimentation, since the additional fermentation just seems to backfire on them.
I had comical amounts of gas for the first couple of weeks
. But I've also been pairing it with VSL#3 and/or psyllium most of the time. There is some data showing benefit to using something like psyllium to move the fermentation distally/further down the colon.Here's a success story from a commenter on FTA. There has been a substantial number of these over the last few months.
And another interesting one regarding body temperature.
MeSci
ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
- Messages
- 8,235
- Location
- Cornwall, UK
Blood test, I think. Check out the threads.
I think that some of the side effects we're experiencing are from either dysbiosis, or lack of enough microbes, especially some of the bifidobacteria.
Here's an article that discusses the gut microbe/ brain relationship. It also brings up ME/CFS, and that elevated D Lactate has been found with this condition.
http://www.gutpathogens.com/content/5/1/3 ( The article discusses the benefits of L. Plantarum, but it may increase D Lactate, so, caution there.)
Elevated D lactate, and lactic acidosis is hard to treat, but here's a study that used B. breve and FOS to treat D-lactic acidosis.
http://www.internationalsurgery.org/doi/abs/10.9738/CC169?journalCode=insu
Some strains of Bifidobacteria have been shown to lower elevated serum ammonia, in people and animals. Researchers often use the probiotic VSL#3 in there tests. Most of the time it works, but not always. It seems that the more effective bacteria for reducing ammonia and treating the resulting hepatic encephalopathy are : B. adolescentis, B. bifidum, B. longum, and its subspecies, B infantis.
The L. Plantarum strain has also shown serum ammonia effects, but, it may be not good for people with elevated D lactate.
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/grp/2012/872716/
http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Bifidobacterium_adolescentis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3854811/#!po=43.7500
Microbes also release neurotransmitters, Serotonin, Dopamine, Norepinephrine, etc. Some of the bacillus genus ones release dopamine and epinephrine. Bacillus subtilis is one of the strains in the Prescript Assist brand probiotic. I think that's why, @adreno , and myself have felt stimulated by it. ( I'm reducing my dosage to 1cap or less daily.)
I'm also considering adding some bifidobacteria strains to the mix for a time. Custom Probiotics offers a large array of them. ( This is getting expensive.)
Meanwhile, I dehydrated some green plantains. They were kinda untasty to me, so I ground them into a powder. I'm using that in my smoothie for now. I'm alternating RS2 sources.
Here's an article that discusses the gut microbe/ brain relationship. It also brings up ME/CFS, and that elevated D Lactate has been found with this condition.
http://www.gutpathogens.com/content/5/1/3 ( The article discusses the benefits of L. Plantarum, but it may increase D Lactate, so, caution there.)
Elevated D lactate, and lactic acidosis is hard to treat, but here's a study that used B. breve and FOS to treat D-lactic acidosis.
http://www.internationalsurgery.org/doi/abs/10.9738/CC169?journalCode=insu
Some strains of Bifidobacteria have been shown to lower elevated serum ammonia, in people and animals. Researchers often use the probiotic VSL#3 in there tests. Most of the time it works, but not always. It seems that the more effective bacteria for reducing ammonia and treating the resulting hepatic encephalopathy are : B. adolescentis, B. bifidum, B. longum, and its subspecies, B infantis.
The L. Plantarum strain has also shown serum ammonia effects, but, it may be not good for people with elevated D lactate.
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/grp/2012/872716/
http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Bifidobacterium_adolescentis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3854811/#!po=43.7500
Microbes also release neurotransmitters, Serotonin, Dopamine, Norepinephrine, etc. Some of the bacillus genus ones release dopamine and epinephrine. Bacillus subtilis is one of the strains in the Prescript Assist brand probiotic. I think that's why, @adreno , and myself have felt stimulated by it. ( I'm reducing my dosage to 1cap or less daily.)
I'm also considering adding some bifidobacteria strains to the mix for a time. Custom Probiotics offers a large array of them. ( This is getting expensive.)
Meanwhile, I dehydrated some green plantains. They were kinda untasty to me, so I ground them into a powder. I'm using that in my smoothie for now. I'm alternating RS2 sources.
Interesting, @Crux. The part that I'm finding interesting is that by increasing SCFA production in the colon, this increased acidic environment has beens shown to have beneficial effects that many people haven't even considered. In my first post, I mentioned how Jeff Leach at the American Gut project has been talking about how the acidic environment from SCFA production makes a gut environment that breeds good bacteria and either kills off (or inactivates) pathogenic microbes and bad bacteria. On the surface, it all sounds like a mild change, but I think the acidic environment from SCFAs (and the SCFAs themselves) that is actually the KEY to RS.
Case in point. Many people don't realize that Candida has a growth gene that switches on in an alkaline environment, but switches off in an acidic environment. It is literally like a light switch that turns it from a pathogen to a fairly benign yeast. And many people hear about certain SCFAs that are effective against Candida and then run out to buy a bottle of that particular fatty acid. But, they don't put two and two together — your body is supposed to produce enough of that SCFA, with prebiotic food/RS, to keep those pathogens, like Candida, in check.
H. pylori (though, in the stomach, and not the colon) will actually secrete ammonia in an attempt to weaken the acidity of the stomach so that it can survive (it dislikes acidic environments). This weakened acidity likely helps promote SIBO/GERD.
When it comes to the digestive tract, the evidence suggests that acidic is better — which makes sense — and RS (via SCFA fermentation) helps create and maintain that beneficial acidic environment in the colon. And that's where a lot of the changes probably come from — in addition to the SCFAs themselves.
The small intestine should be mostly sterile, and any bacteria that accidentally set up shop there can certainly cause problems. But, RS seems to be a weapon against that too.
EDIT: Holy crap! Not only does the SCFA production and acidic environment stop pathogenic growth, but the most potent pathogenic fighting bacteria, such as Saccharomyces boulardii actually thrive in an acidic environment — provided they are in place and are fed prebiotics. Jeff Leach was right!
Case in point. Many people don't realize that Candida has a growth gene that switches on in an alkaline environment, but switches off in an acidic environment. It is literally like a light switch that turns it from a pathogen to a fairly benign yeast. And many people hear about certain SCFAs that are effective against Candida and then run out to buy a bottle of that particular fatty acid. But, they don't put two and two together — your body is supposed to produce enough of that SCFA, with prebiotic food/RS, to keep those pathogens, like Candida, in check.
H. pylori (though, in the stomach, and not the colon) will actually secrete ammonia in an attempt to weaken the acidity of the stomach so that it can survive (it dislikes acidic environments). This weakened acidity likely helps promote SIBO/GERD.
When it comes to the digestive tract, the evidence suggests that acidic is better — which makes sense — and RS (via SCFA fermentation) helps create and maintain that beneficial acidic environment in the colon. And that's where a lot of the changes probably come from — in addition to the SCFAs themselves.
The small intestine should be mostly sterile, and any bacteria that accidentally set up shop there can certainly cause problems. But, RS seems to be a weapon against that too.
EDIT: Holy crap! Not only does the SCFA production and acidic environment stop pathogenic growth, but the most potent pathogenic fighting bacteria, such as Saccharomyces boulardii actually thrive in an acidic environment — provided they are in place and are fed prebiotics. Jeff Leach was right!
Last edited:
adreno
PR activist
- Messages
- 4,841
@Crux, yeah I was thinking that the probiotics would stimulate neurotransmitter production. The stimulation should normalize after a while, then.
On my metametrix test, I showed normal bifido levels, but low lactic acid bacteria. Would it be wise to supplement a normal probiotic on top of the PA? I was doing that before this thread got me on RS and PA (this one).
I feel rather terrible with any kind of alkalizing substance, like bicarbonate. I feel like I quickly go in to alkalosis, and have difficulty breathing. So I definitely don't think I suffer from D-lactid acid acidosis. My PH on metametrix was high-normal. SCFAs low.
This has been a very informative thread so far. Thanks to all who have contributed, and especially @Ripley, for bringing this to our attention.
On my metametrix test, I showed normal bifido levels, but low lactic acid bacteria. Would it be wise to supplement a normal probiotic on top of the PA? I was doing that before this thread got me on RS and PA (this one).
I feel rather terrible with any kind of alkalizing substance, like bicarbonate. I feel like I quickly go in to alkalosis, and have difficulty breathing. So I definitely don't think I suffer from D-lactid acid acidosis. My PH on metametrix was high-normal. SCFAs low.
This has been a very informative thread so far. Thanks to all who have contributed, and especially @Ripley, for bringing this to our attention.
I figured they wouldn't be tasty. I do have some of this plantain flour to try out. Good to alternate sources I'm sure.
I've been reading alot.... and forgetting more, about the microbiota, and how it effects...everything in the body. My desire is for an answer like, this is all good, or this is all bad. Not so. All of these microbes can become toxic when overgrown.
So it's balance again. Colon PH is another number to balance. From what I've read, most problems in the colon are from too high a PH. But, ulcerative colitis often presents with a low, acidic PH. I think the colonic PH to aim for is between about 5.9 - 6.4.
The main goal is too consume the best 'gut chow' for producing SCFAs, mostly butyrate, and RS2 looks to be the the best for that. ( not to be antagonistic, but I've even read about excessive butyrate production in some diseased states
With the provision of RS2, we should be able to bloom the beneficial microbes, if we have them. They should then crowd out the baddies, or, better the proportion of microbes.
I read sometime back that some researchers think that even H. pylori is ok if not too high. (?) Proprortions again?
Proper PH is needed everywhere, and , high stomach PH can be deadly. An acidic stomach can really take out pathogens. Most of my life has been plagued with low stomach acid. I did have alot of GERD and upper GI problems until I began taking HCl. ( I've since been diagnosed with central adrenal insufficiency, and I take cortisol in physiological amounts. Cortisol stimulates the production of HCl.) For the most part, I make enough stomach acid, but sometimes a pathogen sneaks in. This can cause nausea and vomiting, and may precipitate a crisis. I've learned to avoid a crisis by, not only increasing the cortisol, but also, taking salt tablets. The Chloride in the NaCl is very acidic. It must be killing pathogens pretty well, because, taking it when I'm about to go into crisis has kept me out of the ER for 3 yrs. now.
Although I haven't taken conventional antibiotics for ~ 14yrs., I have treated infections with high dosages of Goldenseal tincture. ( I've been making it for about 6 yrs.) One of its active ingredients is berberine. It's been very effective, but I believe I've taken out alot of friendlies with it.
I've always tried to replace beneficial microbes with probiotics and naturally fermented foods and drinks, but I'm not sure that I've taken or grown the needed ones. I've had side effects from having higher amounts of some probiotics. This has also happened when I've drunk extra raw goat milk kefir that I make.
These side effects have lead me to suspect that I've been consuming too much lactobacillus, and possibly too little bifidobacteria. They are all acidic, good and not good, but disproportionate, I suspect.
With this RS2 experiment, side effects and all, I'm more than glad to experience this. I've feel I've found a major cause for a delay in my recovery. I will be one of the slower ones to improve, understandably, because I'm in kind of a mess, healthwise.
@adreno , It looks like the other probiotic you have taken could be beneficial in your case. Your test shows that more lactobacillus bacteria would be good. I would also recommend more naturally fermented foods. ( I see you eat some pickled foods.) Since L. plantarum has beneficial properties, I don't think it would be problematic for you.
So it's balance again. Colon PH is another number to balance. From what I've read, most problems in the colon are from too high a PH. But, ulcerative colitis often presents with a low, acidic PH. I think the colonic PH to aim for is between about 5.9 - 6.4.
The main goal is too consume the best 'gut chow' for producing SCFAs, mostly butyrate, and RS2 looks to be the the best for that. ( not to be antagonistic, but I've even read about excessive butyrate production in some diseased states
With the provision of RS2, we should be able to bloom the beneficial microbes, if we have them. They should then crowd out the baddies, or, better the proportion of microbes.
I read sometime back that some researchers think that even H. pylori is ok if not too high. (?) Proprortions again?
Proper PH is needed everywhere, and , high stomach PH can be deadly. An acidic stomach can really take out pathogens. Most of my life has been plagued with low stomach acid. I did have alot of GERD and upper GI problems until I began taking HCl. ( I've since been diagnosed with central adrenal insufficiency, and I take cortisol in physiological amounts. Cortisol stimulates the production of HCl.) For the most part, I make enough stomach acid, but sometimes a pathogen sneaks in. This can cause nausea and vomiting, and may precipitate a crisis. I've learned to avoid a crisis by, not only increasing the cortisol, but also, taking salt tablets. The Chloride in the NaCl is very acidic. It must be killing pathogens pretty well, because, taking it when I'm about to go into crisis has kept me out of the ER for 3 yrs. now.
Although I haven't taken conventional antibiotics for ~ 14yrs., I have treated infections with high dosages of Goldenseal tincture. ( I've been making it for about 6 yrs.) One of its active ingredients is berberine. It's been very effective, but I believe I've taken out alot of friendlies with it.
I've always tried to replace beneficial microbes with probiotics and naturally fermented foods and drinks, but I'm not sure that I've taken or grown the needed ones. I've had side effects from having higher amounts of some probiotics. This has also happened when I've drunk extra raw goat milk kefir that I make.
These side effects have lead me to suspect that I've been consuming too much lactobacillus, and possibly too little bifidobacteria. They are all acidic, good and not good, but disproportionate, I suspect.
With this RS2 experiment, side effects and all, I'm more than glad to experience this. I've feel I've found a major cause for a delay in my recovery. I will be one of the slower ones to improve, understandably, because I'm in kind of a mess, healthwise.
@adreno , It looks like the other probiotic you have taken could be beneficial in your case. Your test shows that more lactobacillus bacteria would be good. I would also recommend more naturally fermented foods. ( I see you eat some pickled foods.) Since L. plantarum has beneficial properties, I don't think it would be problematic for you.
Tim Steele makes the chips and likes them, so I may be an odd one. I think they would be better with spices. If only there was a way to make them taste like potato chips. mmm
I do like the Inka plantain chips, but they are roasted and probably not from green plantains. Doubt there is any RS in them.
Hi Ripley.
Thanks for reply...I went to the site and pressed on above..http://fly.5by5.tv/audio/broadcasts/paleo/2014/paleo-097.mp3...It is still reporting this video cant be viewed as file is corrupt.I'm in Uk so that perhaps has something to do with it....????
Yeah, they probably have RS3, but not RS2. RS2 is elusive.
Sounds like your browser may have an improper setting. It's an audio file, not a video file
You can try saving the file locally (right click, save) and playing from there, or try a different browser if this persists.
Thanks Ripley and dmholmes....I'll try that as you have suggested later...Thank you....
I think we may now have a good theory now as to why RS improves glucose control. This was literally just published the other day...
Cell: Volume 156 Issue 1 and 2 January 2014 said: