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Glutathione & Precursors - Detox or Induced Methylb12 and Methylfolate Deficiencies?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Sep 12, 2009.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Joopiter,

    While MMA is used to detect a shortage of adb12, a lack of high uMMA doesn't preclude response and benefit by taking adb12 and has no bearing at all on a CNS/CSF adb12 shortage. Homocysteine (Hcy) is used as a proxy for evidence of mb12 shortage. Again "normal" Hcy in no way precludes massive benefit from mb12 and again doesn't adress CSF/CNS mb12 levels at all. Neither of these are useful until things are very broken and substantial damage may have been occurring for decades. Plants produce 18 different "junk" cobalamins that can be absorbed as well as cyanocbl that is the excretion form after detoxing cyanide, cobalamin oxidized by nitrous oxide, the rapidly excreted glutathionylcobalamin and no doubt others. Further, the standard testing doesn't distinguish any of these forms nor between adb12 and mb12 and all the many inactive or temporary forms.
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    NAC "detox", or induced folate deficiency in official side effects but not recognized

    Deplin (pure Metafolin) side effects
    Are there side effects with Deplin? http://www.deplin.com/DeplinFacts,WhatToExpect
    L-methylfolate was well tolerated in both short-term and long-term trials. Side effects did not differ from a sugar pill (placebo).15-18 Deplin has not been associated with weight gain, sexual dysfunction, nausea, or akathisia.15-21

    http://www.drugs.com/sfx/cerefolin-w....htmlCerefolin with NAC

    All medicines may cause side effects, but many people have no, or minor, side effects. Check with your doctor if any of these most COMMON side effects persist or become bothersome when using Cerefolin with NAC:
    Bloated feeling; headache; itching; mild diarrhea; mild fever; nausea; vomiting.
    Seek medical attention right away if any of these SEVERE side effects occur when using Cerefolin with NAC:
    Severe allergic reactions (rash; hives; difficulty breathing; tightness in the chest; swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue); lower back or side pain.
    So we see these side effects for Metafolin with NAC and NONE of them for pure Metafolin. These NAC side effects are commonly called "NAC detox" and are in fact identical with severe induced folate effects. Notice the increase in allergic response and the IBS onset. Also identical with "glutathione detox" effects. Also identical with paradoxical folate deficiency effects. The Cerefolin with NAC list is not a complete list, just the consumer list. I'm still chasing down that professional list.
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Here we are almost 2.5 years after finding NAC and glutathione induced folate deficiency. Added to that we now have folic acid induced paradoxical folate deficiency, folinic acid induced paradoxical folate deficiency and vegetable source folate induced paradoxical folate deficiency. Quite a few more people have been able to identify it in themselves, verify it by removing the cause and taking Metafolin.
  4. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Freddd.

    I think it would be great if a few of the people who have identified these issues in their own bodies would have a 23andme.com haplotype panel run to look at the SNPs in MTHFS and CblC (MMACHC). Maybe we could pin down for sure why this happens in some people.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    I'm getting some items set up for looking at certain symptoms sets and how to distinguish between them. I'll set up a thread and invite people to apply these to their situation and for those with the 23andme tests to post those results and encourge those who haven't the tests yet but identify the problems to have them. I would be very interested in seeing that also. The tough part would be getting enough people to actually go through the screening questions and then confirm by Metafolin trial without folic and or folinic acid. I think that this could also be a "big one" and I don't want to see it get away. I find the potential stunning. I will need help from those identifying the problems to help improve the definitons of the symsptoms sets.
  6. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    I don't have ME but I think whey caused raynaud's in me. Basically about 6 years ago I joined a gym but instead of getting stronger I got weaker. I was told I needed to eat more and drink a protein shake before and after a workout. I did this and it made a massive difference.

    However during the time I was a member of the gym (1 year) I was getting flares of raynaud's in my fingers and toes. I then moved to another part of the country which didn't have a decent gym so I stopped exercising and therefore stopped the whey and I didn't get any more flares.

    I could never understand why I only got flares in that year and never since. Perhaps this is the answer. Also, maybe it has something to do with digesting proteins as per what Annesse has been saying in the other thread (mal-digested proteins cause the immune system to mount an attack therefore causing autoimmune diseases).
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi April,

    Thankyou for this excellent piece of information. I had been noticing how each time I went into an induced folate deficiency from any reason, my toes and to a lesser extent my fingers, got really cold and then when it's ending they get hot. It was noticable but minor compared to the other quick onset symptoms. I was just wondering about it a few days ago in my latest episode. Your timing is perfect. Good luck.

    Lack of mb12 and folate deficincy is associate with hypersenitivity and autoimmune responses.

    One of the things that strikes me as very poor thinking is that b12 deficiency has to be eliminated to come to an MS diagnosis. Other research shows that those with MS have depressed CSF/CNS cobalamin regardless of body levels. Other research has shown that in MS the CSF has an eleivated HCY level pointing at mb12 as being the severely deficienct cobalamin. That hardly counts as eliminating b12 deficiency aqs a factor but then they are only using BODY deficiency defined as < 160 pg/ml and no elevated serum HCY or MMA (urine) which is ridiculous anyway since body deficiency symptoms exist to well past 1500pg/ml/

    In regards to MS, I have very limited experience but what I have found with just a few people in person or suspect is the following -

    MS appaears to respond to injected doses of mb12 of 7.5mg + or 50mg sublingual doses
    MS appears to respond to adb12, either 50mg sublingual ot 10mg sublinguals included with 50mg sublingual mb12 or 7.5mg+ injection.
    MS appears to respnd to l-carnitine fumarate
    MS often has a waxing and waning pattern that fits the paradocical folate deficiency pattern from vegetable food folate
  8. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Sorry folks I was off my game with this one correction below.

    Fredd,

    Neurons (ordinary brain cells) convert Glutamine to Glutamate releasing some energy in the process. It is for this reason that Gluatmine delivers (in the short term) energy when glucose is not being metabolised well.

    Astrocytes (a type of brain cell) convert the other way (Glutamate to Glutamine) this requires ATP and for the ETC to be working well).
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
    Gloria H likes this.
  9. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    I could not agree with Fredd more re B12 and Mercury
    You really should have blood tests for Mercury BEFORE taking MethylB12. The reason for this being that Mb12 can transport Mercury into the brain.
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Leopardtail,

    The only problem with that is that MeCbl in the body is virtually non-reactive with MeCbl mercury. In a test tube it is reactive, in the body it is so non reactive, under 1%, that we are speaking micrograms of mercury being converted per day at most with high doses of MeCbl and NEVER reaches a toxic level while removing about 1% of converted mercury per day. Your remarks appear to completely reverse the meaning of what I said. I am in complete disagreement with you over that mercury advice. There is no evidence at all that it reacts with mercury in the body. At best it is highly hypothetical and very low rate IF it reacts at all.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  11. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    What's the ETC?
  12. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    HI Fredd,

    Understood

    To be clear - I see a great deal of value in your protocol (since emailing you I have locate a posting of the full thing), I think it is well balanced in terms of the mix of B-Vitamers. With slow methylators I can see enormous value. I can also see enormous value with certain genetic defects. My view is subtly different form yours, it is not poles apart.

    I have seen research "in vivo" showing both positions on Mercury. Applying the 'precautionary principle' though Immunology in general is poor in ME (thus producing side effects with many drugs).

    Cerebral blood flow is markedly affected with lowered blood volume (typically between 20% and 50% reduced in ME patients) - that damages the first method of getting mercury back out of the brain. Secondly the two links between CSF and Lymphatic Fluid (mid thorax and through the Cribriform plate) are impaired in some patients with ME. The latter is relatively common. Finally lymphatic flow in general is often poor. The nasty side effects accumulating with long term use of anti-depressants that should be fully metabolised in three days seem very likely to result from this issue.

    All of this compounds the normal issue of Mercury taking quite some time to get out of the brain. For these reason I consider an 'assessment of risk' to be wise.

    For people in some parts of the United States mercury from fish is thought (by some) to be a particular problem.
    From personal experience just the mercury in fillings made an enormous difference to my ME when removed without any assistance getting through the 'blood brain barrier'. Bear in mind too that your blog will be read world-wide an in countries where Mercury fillings are still 'the norm'. It was in large part with that International perspective in mind that my comments were written.

    I prefer to give advice and receive it with a full appreciation of risks as well as benefits, hence my comments.
    Asklipia likes this.
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Leopardtail,

    I'm in the part of the USA where we really shouldn't eat a lot, or maybe any, of the local fish. They contain a lot of mercury released by smelting operations decades ago and even now. I used to fish and eat the fish in the east but I won't do it here. I also take selenium and have for decades to neutralize and immobilize the mercury as an inert substance. I played with mercury as a boy. My father came home from work every day covered with micro-drops of mercury from working with it all day as a dentist. When he started in practice the amalgam was kneaded barehanded until the right consistency. He is in high level Alzheimer's care now. He refused to try vitamins. His soon to be widow refused later for vitamins to be given him though it very possibly was way too late. She thinks I, and all the rest of us, are fakers and hypochondriacs and I couldn't possibly heal from vitamins because I was never really sick, just lazy and a no good liar. Lots of us have family problems like that.

    I spent 20 years trying every therapy in the book and then some. I went to all sorts of practitioners with all sorts of theories. I kept a daily diary. They all wanted to claim any periodic improvement and disclaim all the downturns which always were more common than upticks. None of the therapies made any difference, didn't change the up and down pattern in any way and added all sorts of side effects and often made things worse, lots worse, like glutathione and it's instant methyltrap. I didn't expect 100% failure on the part of every theory and treatment based on it. Something was wrong with every one of them. Diddling with one resultant symptom, even if it helps that symptoms, didn't change anything, didn't cause any healing. It was just skimming a little cream of the top but not getting the cause of anything.

    I studied up on each theory and tried it two or three times with different practitioners. Not a single one, over 100, EVER healed anything. My chiropractor working on my injured back and neck game me a great deal of pain relief. So did massage. As is complained, that is only temporary, but it was all I had that did anything.

    On the mercury, I studied all the theories and "treatments". I watched people panic and stop MeCbl when they had fecal mercury which is sort of strange to me because fecal mercury is exactly what one would get by taking MeCbl if indeed it does react with mercury since the monomethylmercury is then excreted in the bile. The whole idea is to get it out of the body Getting it out of the body is a good idea. The 1% per day of serum monomethylmercury that is excreted in the bile comes from research of people accidently poisoned with monomethylmercury. The research allowed me to build a serum model for it. When they are poisoned by it to the extent of having greater than 30mg body load, they start having direct toxic symptoms which disappear as it is flushed from the body.

    The B12 research showing 99% unchanged excretion of B12 within 24-48 hours puts an upper limit on how much reaction can take place. According to research I've read, approximately 80% of the symptoms of mercury toxicity is identical with B12 deficiency symptoms, that is to say partial methylation block. The deadlock quartet can reverse most of those in short order. Now perhaps one of the reasons I am still improving 11 years down the road is that at 1% a day of serum monomethylmercury, and only a little bit, micrograms, are formed per day with MeCbl hypothetically, then it could take a decade or more to react with the mercury and flush all of it out. The amount found as fecal mercury is on the order of micrograms per day which is in line with such a hypothesis. In the meantime, I'm not suffering all the effects of partial methylation block or methyltrap. I'm not suffering from any of them.

    I've been doing trials since 1979 in myself as a longitudinal study. Basically one way of saying what I have found is that 95% medicine doesn't work for us. We are in the tails beyond 2 standard deviations and are ignored. I'm a systems analyst and consultant in healthcare since about 1980. The date isn't exact because it started with one little thing and then another and then another until it was full time Actually I started at 13 years old analyzing blue collar and a white collar dental practices, modeling them (adding machine and paper spreadsheets) and doing the preliminary actuarial work for the first free-standing dental HMO back in 1961.

    I've written all sorts of serum level models for drugs to help practitioners figure out what was going on, such as one to show why Oxycontin didn't work as the advertising suggested it did. The graph that was used to show steadiness of serum level didn't match the data table which showed no such thing. I'm not interested in rehashing 20 year old business here but just used it as an example to show how models can help. In reverse engineering their graph I was able to show that it required a completely different set of numbers than their Orange Book data showed.

    When building a model for B12 I found that while the numbers from lots of studies were pretty consistent for serum halflife they were not modeled well as there were a lot of complications and wrong assumptions.

    So I take apart studies and build models. The models have to reflect how the results actually occur in people, not according to somebody's wish list hypothesis.

    If you can show me the data from multiple studies I can build a better model than from one study. A good model has to be able to accommodate all data, not just the 95%. So I build it based on the 5% and the 95% are always accommodated. They just don't use all the variations built in. So in the medication model (Oxycontin for example) I include gut transit time, liver damage, kidney damage and all the other quantifiable things causing variations outside the 95%.
    ahmo likes this.
  14. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    The faecal mercury does seem like a common sense no-brainer - a good result. I was not specifically looking for Mercury and the brain when i conducted the research. I noted it mentally on 'better safe than sorry' basis since I had marked lowering of symptoms on amalgam removal. I hate to think what kind of symptoms you had.

    My particular area of research is the interaction between the Electron Transport Chain and B-Vitamin metabolism and their onward effect on Hormone Production.

    When I next review the material (I have several thousand papers to work through a second time), will post any pubmed links if I see anything that may interest you. I will also review your post with interest at later time (it's 10pm here).
  15. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Its short for "The Electron Transport Chain" it where ATP (energy) is generated in the body.
  16. Gloria H

    Gloria H

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    @ Leopardtail
    ETC is an acronym for ?
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi leopardtail,


    I noted it mentally on 'better safe than sorry' basis since I had marked lowering of symptoms on amalgam removal

    I'm usually a belt and suspenders type myself, but not fearful. I had just about all the symptoms one might expect with everything breaking down except anxiety. You are fortunate that you had a such a good result from amalgam removal.

    Do you by any chance have mass spec and NMR access?

    It was most informative to do a saturation reading of papers on B12. It made obvious so many assumptions that became sanctified by the Nobel Prize and repetition that had no foundation in fact and actually contradicted what happens. It helped define the extent of the mythology about B12 and folate that developed around CyCbl and folic acid. This mythology was why over 100 practitioners were unable to diagnose b12 and folate deficiency in me over decades. I was far more likely to be kicked out of a practice for having "too many symptoms to be believable".

    I never met a doctor willing to sit still for a recitation of 200 symptoms. Most lose attention around 10 to 15.
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014
  18. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    LOL,
    Yes that sounds all too familiar re symptoms, I am lucky if I can get my Doc to listen to three. I know I had to spend a vast amount of time writing down grouping and structuring my symptoms (32 pages worth). People with serious and complex illnesses need a different kind of 'GP service'.

    Sadly no I have access to neither (mass spec). I am going after a round of research funding at the moment (and preparing an earlier paper for publishing).

    The most obvious flaw in B12 testing is how they do it (Cyanide binding) which obscures (potentially) flaws in metabolism.

    I have come to the conclusion that health services need specialist doctors dealing in Metabolic Medicine, medics in general are near clueless about this stuff. The number of ways Methylation can be messed up for example is enough to make a beginners head spin and most Biochemistry texts miss out vast amounts of really basic biochemistry.

    With ME and these related diseases you can't really be fearful can you? You would never get well without a willingness to experiment - more risk limitation than risk elimination. I have a particular need for caution due to ME interacting with type I diabetes.
  19. Gloria H

    Gloria H

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    In rereading, I think I got the ETC acronym figured out to be Electron Transport Chain. Someone correct that if I'm wrong.
  20. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Spot on Gloria, it's a quick and dirty way of referring to the Electron Transport Chain which is where electrical energy is generated then stored in the form of ATP. ATP (for those new to ME) is a bit the smallest re-charged battery possible.
    Gloria H likes this.

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