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Folic acid in bread 'could be a health timebomb'

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by caledonia, Dec 14, 2013.

  1. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-490820/Folic-acid-bread-health-timebomb.html

    I think this article from the UK is remarkable. At least the Brits seem to be somewhat learning from the giant US science experiment on it's population for the past 20 years. They're questioning adding folic acid to bread, but it's already in cereals and pasta.

    In the US, it's in bread, cereals, pasta, etc., basically everywhere.

    They don't mention this specifically in the article, but folic acid is bad for people with MTHFR mutations. That's us folks. So in addition to whatever measures you've been taking to improve methylation, you should also avoid fortified grain products. Just read the label to see if folic acid has been added.
    ahmo, Wayne, SickOfSickness and 3 others like this.
  2. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    About the only breakfast cereal I can eat is wholegrain oatmeal.
  3. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    A paper published in the British Journal of Nutrition found folic acid is broken down by the liver, whereas natural folates are broken down in the stomach.
    Scientists claim a liver flooded with folic acid may end up releasing it undigested into the blood.
    Excess levels of folic acid in the blood have been linked to bowel and breast cancer, and could accelerate brain decline in some elderly people.


    :devil: FFP :devil:
    Fake Folate Poisoning
    Be well!
    Asklipia

    They pretend adding it to food is something eventually considered for the future.
    In truth, it has been added to food starting at the end of the 18th century.
  4. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    "liver flooded with folic acid"
    No wonder that when I used to do liver flushes, for about two years I would find MSG in the "stones" when testing them.
    After a couple of years, I could not find any more MSG in the stones though.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Asklipia,

    The identification/invention of folic acid received the Nobel Prize in 1941.
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I eat virtually no white flour products. I don't eat vitamin fortified anything. I don't eat corn syrup products. I eat no milk (products), cheese or whey. I don't eat transfats. For months now I have enjoyed no folate insufficiency symptoms of which I am aware. I read labels. I don't eat many things at potlucks. I eat very few pre-prepared foods. It takes a lot of work to heal from ME/CFS/FMS (21st Century Mystery Disease).
    SickOfSickness likes this.
  7. beaker

    beaker CFS/ME 1986

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    gee. I have been taking folic acid sups to complement my b12 for anemia. I guess I should stop ?
    have not had 23and me tests. thinking of doing it before it disappears all together.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Beaker,

    Say hello to Dr. Honeydew for me. Folic acid can block 10x as much methylfolate in some people causing a paradoxical folate deficiency. It may even be a foundational problem for most of us.
    Wayne and SickOfSickness like this.
  9. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd,
    Yes you are right, BUT :
    There are anterior types of Fake Folates.
    Fake Folates were introduced to a wide public around 1750, with the popularization of "the Steam Digester", an invention of Denis Papin (around 1670 I believe). It was thought at the time to be a good way to feed the masses cheaply. The government used it on jail inmates. In Paris, a lot of people died or got very sick and he moved over to London with his machine.
    http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Denis_Papin.html I leave you to search for more information about his life if you are interested. In a nutshell, he was known for his part in inventing the steam machine but he was also very interested in the preservation of food.

    This pressure cooker extracted glutamates and people were addicted. It was immediately introduced to the kitchens of the King of England (around 1680). Because of the pressure inside the machine glutamine was turned into dangerous glutamates, and instead of a nourishing broth, it produced a soup that was lethal for those whose body could not adapt to this sudden overwhelming surge in folates. Does this ring a bell?
    The others adapted with their epigenetic tools.

    Because the Steam Digester could produce cheap meals soon christened "portable soup", they were an ideal tool for the Navy (at the time, the durability of embarked food was a limit to maritime exploration - hence most probably Papin's interest for the preservation of apples in a vacuum, which he invented too). In fact during all of the 18th century, lots of coastal villages in England and in France made their revenue from boiling meat and bones to transform them into hard slabs of "Portable Soup", using Papin's machine.

    You can find many references to this "portable soup", and to the presence on British ships of Papin's machine, and on occasion discussions about the more palatable "portable soup" served on French ships in the very informative books of Patrick O'Brian :
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubrey–Maturin_series

    Of course, the popularity of the portable soup went on increasing, because of the addictive effect of the glutamates. It is even mentioned in the "Swiss Family Robinsons" by Johann Wyss (1812). The Swiss family cannot dream of living without it!!! It must have been quite popular at the time, even with people living in a land-locked area like Switzerland.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Swiss_Family_Robinson

    By that time, a lot of the drawbacks has started to appear. Of course some people just died off, but a lot of the others suffered from guess what? Folate Deficiency! Scurvy seemed to affect more and more sailors. Some thought it was due to the longer weeks at sea, but it did not seem to affect people like Eskimos who had no vegetables or fruit to speak of. In a way that explosion of scurvy I think is related to the many cases of what we do not recognize as scurvy but is part of the symptoms of Folate Deficiency.
    On the boats too a new problem emerged : more and more sailors were affected by a strange problem in the hands. A French doctor, Dupuytren, described the phenomenon, new to that period of time and devised an operation for it (1831). It was thought to affect those pulling on rope, but everybody was wondering why it had not happened in the past, because from time immemorial sailors had been pulling on ropes.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupuytren's_contracture
    You will of course notice that this is one of the numerous fibrosis problems induced by Folate Deficiency.

    At the same time, on land, there were more and more cases of rickets. Lack of vitamin D!!! The sailors were not affected, despite their diet which might or might not have included more portable soup than average.
    Fake folates induce problems with vitamin D through the calcium distribution.
    Everywhere more and more people became sick with tuberculosis. Sailors did not get that in the lungs, but they got it in the gut.
    We know now that Folate Deficiency induces a lowering of Th1 immunity, which protects against the mycobacterium of TB.

    Hoping to protect the troops, Army doctors started a supplementation with malt.
    By the beginning of the 20th century, malt was given to strengthen the working class (a growing amount of poor babies (and even wealthy ones if the parents were glutamate addicts) were born with spina bifida).
    A deliberate attempt was being made to remedy the Folate Deficiency by introducing another type of folates.
    The British Pharmaceutical Codex of 1907 explains how to make malt extract.
    (EDIT : Some people must have been noticing all was not perfect because during the First World War (when Fake Folates were distributed to all on the field and in factories) and afterwards, there were riots in France about the food being poisoned and a KNORR factory was burnt down.)

    All this Folate Deficiency of course entailed a vitamin D deficiency too, and malt was mixed with cod liver oil to help. In "The House at Poo Corner" (1928) there is a mention of such a mixture.

    Folic acid was next (as you say 1941).

    Now we are using methylfolate.

    Adding Fake Folates to food with increasingly bad consequences is not new.
    I believe this is the cause of most of our problems.
    The adaptation of our epigenetic disposition to this has led us to where we are. We are sick, but the others are dead.
    Any food which has been enriched is pure poison for us.
    This means even the raw rice we buy IF it has been coated with a hydrogenated oil for easier conservation.

    Sorry, I have to leave, cooking to be done!
    Best wishes to all,
    Asklipia
    Beware of
    :devil:FFP:devil:
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013
    Sidereal, Wayne, stridor and 3 others like this.
  10. melihtas

    melihtas

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    ME/CFS is much more commen in developed countries + Folic acid in wheat flour is mandatory in developed countries = ???
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Asklipia,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scurvy
    Scurvy is a disease resulting from a deficiency of vitamin C, which is required for the synthesis of collagen in humans. The chemical name for vitamin C, ascorbic acid, is derived from the Latin name of scurvy, scorbutus, which also provides the adjective scorbutic ("of, characterized by or having to do with scurvy"). Scurvy often presents itself initially as symptoms of malaise and lethargy, followed by formation of spots on the skin, spongy gums, and bleeding from the mucous membranes. Spots are most abundant on the thighs and legs, and a person with the ailment looks pale, feels depressed, and is partially immobilized. As scurvy advances, there can be open, suppurating wounds, loss of teeth, jaundice, fever, neuropathy and death.

    Some thought it was due to the longer weeks at sea, but it did not seem to affect people like Eskimos who had no vegetables or fruit to speak of. In a way that explosion of scurvy I think is related to the many cases of what we do not recognize as scurvy but is part of the symptoms of Folate Deficiency.


    Fresh meat from animals which make their own vitamin C (which most animals do) contains enough vitamin C to prevent scurvy, and even partly treat it. This caused confusion in the early history of scurvy, since the disease was only seen in people eating long-preserved diets or canned goods, but not in people eating any sort of fresh diet, including arctic diets primarily based upon meat. In some cases (notably in French soldiers eating fresh horse meat), it was discovered that meat alone, even partly cooked meat, could alleviate scurvy. In other cases, a meat-only diet could cause scurvy.[13] Some of these observations that scurvy was associated only with preserved foods prompted explorers to blame scurvy upon some type of tainting or poison which pervaded tinned foods.

    Scurvy has nothing at all to do with folate deficiency. Vitamin C exists in raw meat. Cooking it, especially at high temperatures like a pressure cooker, destroys vitamin C. The Eskimos eat the meat and blubber raw and therefor with their vitamin C intact. Humans are one of the only animals that can't make their own vitamin C. Boiling veggies washes the folate out and damages it. The sailors had multiple nutritional deficiencies.

    I don't know about the rest but folate deficiency causing scurvy is complete NONSENSE. The only reference to folate with scurvy is that low folate causes the macrocytic anemia often found with scurvy. Vitamin C deficiency is the cause of scurvy. A scorbic acid is the "anti scurvy" (ascorbic) factor. Folate Deficiency has nothing at all to do with it. Both folate deficiency and b12 deficiencies can and do cause macrocytic anemia and tissue breakdown, but differently from scurvy.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Melihtas,

    My hypothesis is that ME/CFS/FMS is a manmade deficiency disease caused by folic acid, a poor excuse for a folate and Cyanocobalamin/Hydroxycobalamin the 1% effective (as compared to MeCbl and AdoCbl) cobalamins. If a person is low on folate they will become low on b12 because of the interrelationship. These pseudo vitamins cause blindness in doctors. They "know that folate and b12 deficiencies are "taken care of" so the remaining 200-300 symptoms of b12/folate deficiency are now mystery disease because they "can't possibly be folate and b12 deficiencies as that is already taken care of".
    Wayne likes this.
  13. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd,
    Well, what a nice way to put it.:)
    I am not at all sure that we know all we should know about the ways our bodies work, the reasons behind the supposed reasons for our ailments, the effects of vitamins, the indirect consequences of some deficiencies etc.
    It seems to me there is quite a lot left to discover and a lot of established science to reconsider.
    Otherwise, in this perfect world of established science, there would be no excuse to be sick!

    I do not recall either defining your theories as "complete NONSENSE".
    Never mind, I bless you all the same :
    Be well!
    Asklipia
    :devil:FFP:devil:
    Wayne and leela like this.
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    If folate deficiency causes scurvy everything else is wrong. A lot of people have subclinical scurvy according to some of the dental experts I worked with for years. I spent 30 years consulting with and designing software for group benefit plans including dental insurance. And they, the dentists would prescribe a little Vitamin C and the subclinical scurvy signs would go away. I worked with millions of members of dental insurance plans over the years. Clinical cases of scurvy are unheard of in the USA these days. A person has to practice hard core partial starvation. In the N=1000 symptoms study I conducted the most limiting factor for 95% of people with the CSF/FMS/ME symptoms were the deadlock quartet. Not one person reported bleeding gums. However, a lot of people respond with immune system improvements with Vit C. The other 5% has some other limiting factor, one of about 6 or 8 items. Vit C hasn't been the most limiting factor for cell formation for anybody I have heard of yet and none in the questionnaire study But the cause of scurvy is very well established and demonstrated by millions of people and was discovered separately in several sea going countries. You are free to call anything you want nonsense. I have called very few things nonsense. Folate deficiency causes tissue breakdown but not scurvy. Scurvy causes tissue breakdown too but differently. If one is going to go counter to established science there ought to be plenty of poor science and research with lots of poor assumptions, logic and lots of empty spots and so on. If you are takliking 1 in a billion people, who knows. But that would hardly be said to "causing scurvy". Provide the logic. Provide the evidence. The raw meat eating Eskimos are not an example of survival without C. It is just too misleading for the other 999,999,999 of the billion or whatever to leave it at "folate deficiency causes scurvy.

    I can agree that artificial or natural oxidized non-active folates are dangerous to many people and causes deficiency diseases. Many of us here are evidence of that. However, CFS/FMS/ME doesn't have the symptoms of scurvy and Vitamin C doesn't correct these symptoms. It only makes sense if scurvy and ME/CFS/FMS are one and the same. And I don't believe that for even a microsecond. Vitamin C deficiency might be able to be an induced deficiency during healing. It is a vitamin. Be in good health.
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2013
  15. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Asklipia, very interesting link w/ Dupuytrens. I'd had 2 needle procedures on my Dupuytrens in the 2 years prior to my descent into ME/CFS. There was still residual stiffness in my hands. 2 weeks into the GAPS diet (no gluten, dairy, other starches) my hands released. It actually was a bit sooner than that, but I could not believe what I was seeing/experiencing. It would be a year later that I got onto Mfolate and the B12 protocol. I think this tendency to fibrosis is also part of the pyroluria syndrome. Certainly pyroluria explained my recurrent connective tissue issues. cheers, ahmo
    Asklipia likes this.
  16. PennyIA

    PennyIA Senior Member

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    I don't think ME/CFS only happens where there is folic acid fortification and only absent where it doesn't apply. But, I've had a theory for a long time that some of the gluten intolerance experienced by many people (non-celiacs) might actually be undiagnosed methylation defects (they are really quite common) and probably a reaction to folic acid and not the gluten. And, just to be wary - if a product says it's fortified, then it probably will state if it's folic acid. However, I've found quite a few bakery products that list flour as an ingredient and when pushed, found out it was fortified and did contain folic acid (pre going gluten-free). Even refined, white rice in the US has folic acid added... it's all over the place.
    Snowdrop and Asklipia like this.
  17. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    I don't know about the absolute truth value of anything anywhere but communicating in this way is completely UNNECESSARY.
    Gloria H, zzz, Wayne and 1 other person like this.
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Penny,


    "]I don't think ME/CFS only happens where there is folic acid fortification and only absent where it doesn't apply.

    Neither do I. However it appears to increase the frequency and severity. The folic acid is all over the place from baby formula to vitamin drinks and all white flour products in the USA. I grew up in the 50s. What has become the norm in neurological problems for kids and adults has increased dramatically. Instead of those who have a sensitivity to veggie folates like me, but could more or less get along with ill health, everything got much worse. The research finding that fewer than half the people have the antibodies expected for pernicious anemia, shows there has to be another cause. With the effects of induced folate deficiencies on immune system and all the rest, there is a highly probably answer. Some very large percentage of people here have problems with folic acid. It's a 4 way deadlock, so anywhere the cycle is interrupted breaks it. Poor absorption of nutrients is all it takes to trigger problems. Missing nutrients, extra stressors, all of these cause problems art the weakest points. The folic acid adds another weak link, and easy place to break.

    If it were as simple as folic acid "always" causing a problem it would have been noticed long ago. It was noticed long ago, in the 60s. But it was published in peer review papers and buried. It was a suspicion then. It wasn't affecting 1/3 of the population.

    Another study published yesterday shows that multivitamins don't help and may make things worse. They virtually all contain folic acid and CyCbl. Folic acid and CyCbl/HyCbl can all "break" methylation. With l-methylfolate and MeCbl, assuming that the ATP portion is working, and that is threatened too by lack of AdoCbl and l-methylfolate, there is generally not a partial methylation block. When you cut off both legs on which methylation stands of course there is a problem.
  19. PennyIA

    PennyIA Senior Member

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    I totally agree that Folic Acid supplementation is a FAR WORSE thing to have happened (to me and my family at minimum)... and absolutely has caused issues with the methylation processes with tons of us that can't toleration due to MTHFR and other defects in the methylation process.

    The problem is that we can't prove that 100% of the people with ME/CFS have methylation issues.

    Now, if we can prove that methylation issues are a subset of ME/CFS and get their own diagnosis... I'd bet that you could practically draw a map from the frequency of the health issues AND people with those genes - and display where supplementation has occurred. And I think that as it became more and more the 'norm' and as our diets ran towards more and more pre-processed foods - that quite a few of us who are ill and right now connect our symptoms to ME/CFS might actually find that it truly is related to the Folic Acid and methylation pathway.

    I know I've seen folks say that they were tested for MTHFR and don't have it - yet have ME/CFS. Of course, if they only tested for the two most common genes, it's highly likely that they can have defects elsewhere in the pathways.

    I've also known people with MTHFR genetics who aren't ill and have a worse diet than I do. So, now the question becomes - what helpful middle 'piece' is missing? Is it virus? Is it toxins? Are there subgroups for each of those?

    I just know that I don't remember getting a virus when I first started to get really ill. But then again, I've had mild symptoms that I blamed on dozens of other reasons throughout my life. Could I have gotten a mild virus and has been sitting around causing issues all this time? Possibly. Could it be tied to the time I messed around with a broken mercury thermometer as a child? Maybe. Mold - yep, got exposed to that as well.

    But when I got REALLY ill? Was after I was physically stressed (had suffered a massive bilateral pulmonary embolism) and had been put on Folic Acid, B12, and B6 (of course, the wrong forms of it)... and in less than three months, I was barely able to walk. So, for me? I see the tie in.
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Penny,

    100% of ME, CFS and FMS, and SACD, and MS and Parkinson's and MCS and IBS and poly neuropathy and another hundred diagnoses of parts of the symptoms are deficiency symptoms of the deadlock quartet. Once toxins start accumulating and other damage is done, such as congestive heart failure in me, who knows exactly how and why it all ties together but it does. I spent 35 years figuring this out. It is complicated. Nobody has ever done research on the deadlock quartet as a group hence they never get out of the 4 way deadlock and have no idea at all. They all break down to the 4 b12 deficiencies, folate deficiency and LCF deficiency (the unexpected). Or to state it a different way, partial methylation block, methyltrap and partial ATP block cause hundreds of 1st order breakdowns and many more 2nd, 3rd and 4th level breakdowns that do all sorts of damage. The longer they continue the more damage and the more independent looking the damage is.
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
    leela likes this.

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