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Folates from vegetables

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Journeyman, Oct 25, 2013.

  1. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Thank you all for providing such interesting information.
    This all goes to validate my Fake Folate Poisoning ideas.
    Apart from the amount of folates ingested, it is important I think to consider what is happening when we ingest them.
    In Asia, where as you correctly remind us, a lot of folate-rich vegetables are consumed, they are not consumed alone.
    In a typical salad you will also find enormous amounts of glycine, which will not only offset the eventual problems due to too high folates in the meal, but will also provide a way to make use of this high folate intake to further nourish and repair.

    I had a long time ago given a recipe for pig's ears as an anti glutamate immediate relief.
    Since this did not make me popular, here is another solution, more convenient (?), more palatable (?) for the easily disgusted cooks:
    Small anti-excitotoxicity cakes:
    - Take a pig's foot (trotter), raw, if possible cut in half or quarters (too difficult to do this yourself).
    - Put in a pan with 1,5 liters water (find a pan deep enough and small enough so that amount of water covers approximately the foot).
    - Add a couple of carrots, one onion into which you stick 4 cloves, salt, some fresh parsley if you have any.
    - Boil gently for one and a half hour, not more. NO PRESSURE COOKER. Longer cooking, pressure cooker, microwaving at any stage will turn this into a death brew of glutamate.
    - Let this cool down until it is still warm.
    - Take out the cloves from the onion and throw them away.
    - Fish out the bones, remove ALL the fleshy parts which you will keep and throw away the bones.
    - All the vegetables and flesh and broth go into the liquidizer.
    - When they are liquidized, add 5 cloves of garlic peeled (it has to be raw and fresh), and if you want an Asian taste, a couple of small fresh chillis (or more....) and a big bunch of fresh coriander leaves. Check for salt.
    - BZZ.........
    - Now, before this cools down too much and sets, you pour the result into your small silicon cake molds :
    for example : http://www.amazon.com/NY-Cake-Silic...1_22?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1383552482&sr=1-22
    - Into the fridge for a couple of hours until they set. Then you take them out of the molds and put into a closed box in your fridge (garlic smell!!!);
    - Whenever you eat any salad or before you eat in general, or if you feel peckish for them (a sure sign that you need them), enjoy a bite!

    I do not give an expiry date for this, because it all depends on how clean your kitchen is and your hands, anyway they will be gone long before the expiry date.

    Bon appétit!
    Asklipia
    Beware of
    :devil: FFP :devil:

    EDIT : Instead of putting the chillies and garlic in the blender, it is nice to put a small piece of each in every small mold before you pour the mixture into them. They are trapped inside the cakes and it gives a very nice explosive feel when you bite on them!
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  2. Journeyman

    Journeyman

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    Thanks for pinning this down further Nandixon - I recall you made some good progress in your earlier activity in these forums re: MTHFS gene collation... I also remember coming across a post by DBKita which I can't find at present re: how folates from vegetables are not processed in the liver, but rather in the intestines. I believe reference was made to monoglutamate forms of folic acid but are teh diglutamate forms also processed in this way (through the stomach) and is it when the liver is implicated that the genetic mutations are more likely to become problematic?
  3. nandixon

    nandixon Senior Member

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    @Journeyman
    The folates in the vegetables would have originally been mostly poly-glutamated. The mixture of folate mono- and di-glutamates analyzed in the paper were the result of the method (chicken pancreas) the researchers used to hydrolyze the poly-glutamates into smaller fragments for the analysis. (Chicken pancreas apparently yields mostly di-glutamates.) I'm not sure about your other question.
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2013
  4. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Last edited: Nov 4, 2013
  5. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    @Violeta
    This is pig's feet gelatin! And it tastes very nice.
    Of course, there are many ways to enjoy this :
    - For the rich: If you make foie gras, you cover the livers in their terrine with such a mixture (filtered and with nothing blended in, except for a glass of port and a pinch of sugar) : Shazam!!!! MeCb + AdCb + Methylfolate + Glycine!!!!!!!!
    - For the poor : after one hour of the previous recipe (small cakes), add a lb of minced pork (not too dry, preferably from the chest). It will cook for half an hour. Then blend only the meat + flesh from the foot + 5 big cloves of garlic + the broth + salt and pepper.
    Then you can make small cakes, or pour in a terrine to slice it later on. This is your very own Garlic Sausage without anything you should not be eating in it :devil::devil::devil:.

    I wish every one a very happy day.
    Asklipia
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2013
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  6. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Do you think taking methylfolate actually removes the methyl block or does it just bypass it and provide much needed folate? If it removes the block, then would it logically follow that the more you take the better you feel?

    Fake folates poisoning, is it actually liver congestion? The folic/folinic acid building up in the liver?

    @Asklipia, where do you live? Most people here in the states no longer make food like that.
  7. yukito

    yukito

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    In fact the purpose was to show that methylfolate is a main folate vitamer in vegetables.Vegetables are not all folinic acid,or a sort of less oxidized folic acid,as I read over and over on the forum. And so we can stop theorizing from a misconception,and producing wrong assumptions,that make us lose time and energy.
    If you want a vegetable almost without non mthfr folates you can eat potatoes:).
  8. yukito

    yukito

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    It matters to let know people consuming some vegetables,that they are ingesting methylfolate almost everyday.So not something we should be afraid to try(methylfolate).But something that should be added to the equation,cause ingested even whitout supplementation.
    Also as methylfolate is present in high amounts compared to other folate vitamers in vegetables, not only asian vegetables.The next step would be to look for vegetables containing almost exclusively methylfolate.

    According to these sources some candidates exist:

    p8 A lot of especies of this vegetable exist,probably with variable folate amounts and vitamers
    http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/37634/PDF

    p237 list
    http://books.google.be/books?id=mcwdkygB0FQC&pg=PA237&lpg=PA237&dq=vegetables 5-methyl-thf&source=bl&ots=3mDwjQbj9p&sig=w-qWyCUTRW84pBuwTDTSbK5azJ4&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=BChzUqafD6rD0QWN44CICg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2013
    Wayne, Crux, Helen and 2 others like this.
  9. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @yukito, so if methylfolate is a main folate in vegetables, but at the same time eating these vegetables has shown to cause seemingly folate deficiency, would it logical to theorize that maybe these vegetables also contain a plant chemical that is causing the seemingly folate deficiency. I am thinking about sulfurophane, mainly becuase it's known to cause similar symptoms in another subset of people who also get the symptoms from B1. The other subset of people are not looking at their issues from the viewpoint of methylation, although maybe they should. And at the same time, maybe it would help those of us looking that the issue from the viewpoint of methylation could get some help from the other viewpoint. If you know what I meano_O?
  10. Journeyman

    Journeyman

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    Lately I've been taking a lot of time to understand folate metabolism as it relates to the various different types of folate that you can obtain from vegetables, supplements, and meat. Thanks to Nandixon in particular for helping me in recent days where my ability to learn anything new has been completely fogged by excessive Methylfolate intake and the absence of my stalwart: SAM-E.

    Anyway, I came across this little gem whilst searching for vegetables with the highest folinic acid content: http://www.pnas.org/content/94/7/3290.full.pdf
    Check out the second paragraph on page 5 starting 'A common polymorphism...' which goes on to explain an unusual benefit conferred by the MTHFR mutation (yes apparently its not all bad news) I had to re-read it a couple times before it sunk in: I thought they made a typo when they said 'It is likely that this mutation increases N5,N10 methylenetetrahydrofolate at the expense of N5-methyltetrahydrofolate,resulting in decreased DNA uracil levels and increased serum homocysteine. So to test my understanding: am I correct in saying that with reduced conversion of 5,10 Methylene-THF to 5-MTHF as a result of the MTHFR mutation, the Methylene THF hangs about longer in the body and so exerts those flow on benefits in pushing the cycle towards DNA synthesis and thus lower uracil levels.

    Ps - if, like me you are wondering what Uracil's are please see Caledonia's post here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/new-methylation-videos-by-ben-lynch.26416/ and watch about 25 mins into that latest Ben Lynch video... How good is his material in helping learn about these cycles!
    Asklipia likes this.
  11. yukito

    yukito

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    Yes I agree,but am not sure of the substance blocking, disturbing folate metabolism.
    Don't know for sulphurophane, I have identified the mineral content of veggies as being a major source of disturbance ON ME,there is surely more remaining to identify.here were discussed other guesses:

    <a href="Study'>http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ients-plus-biomarker.21745/page-7#post-345606">Study: Folinic acid beneficial to 81% of CFS patients...plus biomarker?</a>

    But we could begin Validating or Invalidating the " non-5mthfr folates in veggies blocks methylfolate, theory"
    People with non-5mthfr folates intolerance(folic,folinic acid,maybe even other folate vitamers)AND methylfolate tolerance, could try to restrict their veggies ingestion to those containing lots of methylfolate and only tiny amounts of other folate vitamers.
    Three possible results:
    1.A reduced need for methylfolate supplementation,or even no more need(let's dream)) THEORY PARTIALLY VALIDATED
    2.A maintained need for methylfolate,despite eating almost exclusively methylfolate vitamer and no more other folates=THEORY PARTIALLY INVALIDATED,okay there is people not supporting folic or folinic acid,BUT there is something else disturbing the folate metabolism.
    3. SOMETHING ELSE
    From the results, we could move forward to more accurate assumptions.

    PS:Okay I did it:) ,Have tried to reply a few times earlier but strange things prevented me,weird:cautious:.
    Asklipia likes this.
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi yukito,

    The question then can come down to does folinic acid also affect somebody the same way? Then the blocking agent appears to be the plant versions of and relations to folinic acid. Those folks should also be affected by folic acid too. Why add an additional hypothetical cause if not needed. It's easy to test if folic acid also causes the same problem and folinic acid as well. It's essential to know that if you are going to solve your problems, either way.
  13. yukito

    yukito

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    I tried it, if I ingest a small amount it makes me feel relaxed ,If I keep ingesting more It makes me sleep.
    I will report if it makes other differences, for the moment I'm using it to help me to sleep.
    I prepared it with a pig's foot,ear and tail.For this time, I added nothing more to the preparation.
    Should I put the cartilaginous part of the ear in the liquidizer or should I throw it?
    Are the vegetables important things for this preparation?
    Having prepared it very hygienically ,do you think it is reasonable to let it one week in the fridge?

    Thanks,
    Asklipia likes this.
  14. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: anti-excitatory!!!!
    Why throw it? It is nice and crunchy.
    No, they are there to provide a "classic" taste. Also changing the vegetables allows for never getting tired of eating the same recipe again and again. For example a third one is fresh garlic + a bunch of chervil.
    Two weeks in the fridge is perfectly fine!!! When you make it, put it into a terrine with a lid to protect it.
    Enjoy!
    :)
    Asklipia
    :devil: FFP :devil:

    EDIT : This is very tasty and makes you feel good and you actually feel your body mending. DO NOT EXAGGERATE!!!!!! This may trigger all kinds of sudden repairs at the same time, accompanied by boils, greasy hair etc... Easy and regular! When you have finished a batch, wait for a week before making a new one. Do NOT increase portions too much!
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013
    yukito likes this.
  15. yukito

    yukito

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    I have no serious problem with folic or folinic acid but green veggies are not good for me in the present.
    Food is a powerful thing because full of powerful substances.
    We can't reduce all the interactions between food ingested and our physical shape, or more precisily in this case between veggies
    and people interacting hardly with it,to a few substances, in this case precisely folic,folinic and maybe similars.
    Remember Ascorbate(dbkita's contribution) and potassium(your finding) even if not as critical, who knows if these are the only ones.

    You are pretty satisfied with this abridgement cause it works wonderful for you and some others.
    Meaning these are the main good answers FOR YOU AND THESE OTHERS.
    But as this abridgement doesn't work for everybody here, I think it isn't a bad idea to be humble
    and begin to question the ACCURACY of certain assumptions.

    So if ingesting folic and folinic acid you don't see any new bad sign different of methylfolate or you see different bad reactions
    that those caused by ingested veggies.
    Ingesting other foods poor in folates make you feel like being suffering of folate intolerance or make you feel bad.
    Can we still think about the folic and folinic as being the ONLY CULPRIT?
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013
    Asklipia and Valentijn like this.
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Yukito,

    It is important to know whether it is the plant folates or other things, or even both. The only way to know right now is to do the trials to determine what affects you in xxxx way. Also, that there are different ways to interfere, from competing at absorption, blocking at absorption, blocking after absorption, combining with in some way. Lots of ways for all sorts of thongs to interfere. It's important to find what that is for each of us.
  17. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    OK, you have convinced me to copy the recipe. I don't know when I will get time to cook it. Are the cloves that go in the onion spice cloves, not garlic cloves?
  18. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Spice cloves
    Little Bluestem likes this.
  19. yukito

    yukito

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    do YOU put the cartilaginous part of the ear into the mixer with the rest or do you eat it apart?
    Are the pieces of pork with a lot of connective tissue good alternatives?something complementary?
    or have these parts(ear,foot,tail) some special properties?
    Thank you very much for the recipe:):thumbsup: it is now,a very reliable way to help me to sleep and even to help me to feel better when I urgently need it.
    Asklipia likes this.
  20. yukito

    yukito

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    It seems good advice It's what I am doing since a few months,with little but real results
    I know you are still looking for five stars mb12 ,I find the calf brain and bone marrow very effective.
    The brain contains 75µg/250 g but it's like if I were taking 400µg E.T mb12 underthe upper lip.
    Gondwanaland and Asklipia like this.

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