Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[Hufsamor]

And in that case it would be more easy to change the instructions if needed

 

[BrightCandle]

If I put the instructions online, anonymous people might use them to become a remote patient of the clinic, but not actually take the time to inform everyone of their progress, so we lose useful data.

I think ultimately its better to encourage such feedback on the protocol but not require it. Even silent patients testing this for themselves may actually be useful at least from the clinics point of view they can anonymise the data and publish.

 

[Hip]

I think ultimately its better to encourage such feedback on the protocol but not require it. Even silent patients testing this for themselves may actually be useful at least from the clinics point of view they can anonymise the data and publish.

You may be right, I am still debating it myself. My thoughts are that if there were lots of ME/CFS patients signing up for the autovaccine treatment, then it would not matter so much if a percentage did not report on their progress, as long as a good percentage did.

But if it is only a handful of patients who venture for Dr Markov's treatment, then we would want to get progress reports from as many of those as we can. They would not have to post online, as some people don't like being online; but they could just report their progress to me via a PM, and then I could relay that information online, in an anonymous way. That was my thought.

Of course if some people do wish to provide any details at all, that's fine by me, but I least this way I would have the opportunity of asking them.

Sadly, none of the 4000+ ME/CFS patients that Dr Markov has treated with autovaccines over the last decade or so posted any information online about their progress, either positive reports of success, or negative reports of failure. If they had, then Dr Markov's treatment might have been world famous by now.

There are 17 million ME/CFS patients out there all in abject misery; if there is a solution for these millions, we would want to expedite its rollout.

 

[Rim1]

I think your idea is OK. We need people to report their progress.

 

[Judee]

still using...resveratrol

I haven't finished reading down the thread so I'm not sure if anyone addressed this but resveratrol is antimicrobial. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30825504/

"Resveratrol displays antimicrobial activity against a surprisingly wide range of bacterial, viral and fungal species."

Of course the study says, "...little is known about its efficacy in vivo."

...but still it is used a lot in the Lyme community/Buhner group with some success.

Sorry to sound like I’m 100, but what is discord?

I'm glad you asked that. I didn't know either.

 

[bensmith]

I stopped for testing, started again now that it’s done. I did see it was listed as a possible. Thanks!

 

[Cipher]

Hi everyone!

In addition to autovaccines, there are a lot of commercially available bacterial vaccines out there that perhaps can be used in conjunction with Dr. Markov's autovaccines to improve efficiency, or even as a substitute. I’ve done some research and found ~40 different bacterial vaccines that I’ve compiled into a spreadsheet that I’ve attached to this thread.

 

[Rim1]

One thing I still can't give an explanation are the values of the Toxicon test table.

Values of ≤20 are considered normal and >20 are found in CFS. So a healthy person may have 19 or 20 for a given toxin and a CFS person may have let's say 22 or 23 (if I remember well, Hipsmans values were slightly over 20 as well). How can that little change make such a huge difference (from healthy to cfs)?

Shouldn't normal values be next to 0 and every presence of these toxins in the bloodstream (even below 20) should cause problems?
@Hip Have you ever wondered this and found an explanation?

 

[Hip]

Values of ≤20 are considered normal and >20 are found in CFS. So a healthy person may have 19 or 20 for a given toxin and a CFS person may have let's say 22 or 23 (if I remember well, Hipsmans values were slightly over 20 as well). How can that little change make such a huge difference (from healthy to cfs)?

Yes, I don't really understand the toxicology study that Dr Markov performed on 818 ME/CFS patients (this the the "CBIS Toxicological Diagnosis Report 8" paper that Dr Oleg Markov gave me a free copy).

In the first post of this thread, you can see a table entitled "Cytolytic Activity of Toxic Proteomes", which comes from Report 8, and details the level of bacterial toxin proteins found in ME/CFS patients.

As you say, the normal levels of toxins are ≤20, and the levels found in ME/CFS patients are around 40 or so. Thus ME/CFS patients have about double the level of bacterial toxins in their blood, compared to healthy people, and this does not seem much of a difference.

Yet Report 8 indicates that most ME/CFS patients have "severe toxemia". See this quote from Report 8:

The implications / Conclusions: summarizing the results of the study of the general characteristics of the intoxication syndrome in patients with nephrodisbacteriosis and CBIS, the following should be noted. In the prevailing majority of patients (in 664/818 or 81.17%) there has been detected severe toxemia, in 140/818 (17.11%) – toxemia of moderate severity and only in 14 (1.71%) - of mild severity.

But I don't see how this severe toxemia shows itself in the table.

I am planning to contact the professor in the Ukraine who devised the Toxicon test, Prof Sheiman Boris Semenovich, to ask him about his test. His email is not available online, only a postal address and telephone, so I will need to post a letter to him. @Hipsman has kindly offered to translate the letter to Ukrainian.

I'd like to find out how this test works. Judging by the measured parameter, the cytolytic activity of bacterial toxins, I imagine that the blood plasma of patients is added to a cell line in vitro, and then the degree of cell death caused by the toxins is observed.

 

[Rim1]

@Hip
Yes I think it is a brilliant idea to contact this lab and even better the creater of the test, to understand the difference between healthy and pathogenic. And eventually, maybe if it is possible to do this test in remote. I would consider to do that.

 

[5vforest]

Sadly, none of the 4000+ ME/CFS patients that Dr Markov has treated with autovaccines over the last decade or so posted any information online about their progress, either positive reports of success, or negative reports of failure. If they had, then Dr Markov's treatment might have been world famous by now.

what if this is because he has not actually cured anyone?

 

[Hip]

what if this is because he has not actually cured anyone?

What about negative reports of failure?

 

[Hipsman]

OK, guys, so I'm feeling substantially better every day since I did the 4th injection a few days ago, the improvement accumulates more and more every day I think. My brain fog slowly fades away, if things will continue this way I might be recovered in a month lol!!! I'm doing Markov's Ecoprimavac vaccine + they added my E.Coli strain to it.

 

[bensmith]

Congrats hipsman!!!!!!!!!

 

[Hip]

For those people who have tried incubating their urinary bacteria on dipslides at room temperature, as well as incubating at the higher 37°C temperatures of the egg hatcher device:

can you please detail your experiences with both methods of incubation.

Did you find that your bacteria grew better or faster in the egg hatcher at 37°C, compared to room temperature? Or did you find that both temperatures produced good results?

Is there anyone here who found that they could grow bacteria with the egg hatcher, but could not grow at room temp?

The reason for asking is because I trying to figure out whether an egg hatcher is really necessary, or whether incubation at room temp is fine.

 

[Hip]

I continue to be more tired than usual at the moment, while I am taking my autovaccine produced by the Markov Clinic (which was manufactured from the Enterococcus, Klebsiella, and Pseudomonas bacteria found in my urine). I have nearly finished the required course of 10 autovaccine injections.

Then there is a 4 week break before my next course of vaccination. The next vaccine I have to take is Dr Markov's polyvalent urological vaccine, which is a broad-spectrum vaccine targeting many urinary pathogens ("polyvalent" means having multiple functions or facets).

 

[BrightCandle]

Did you find that your bacteria grew better or faster in the egg hatcher at 37°C, compared to room temperature? Or did you find that both temperatures produced good results?

I Sous Vided mine to 38C and it produced more growth more reliably. Both the samples I used this on produced multiple sites of bacteria on the dipslide growth and were easily seen at the 24 hour point. Some of the ones I did at room temperature took 48 hours to show a result and none showed the same significant growth although they did show it. The problem I face evidence wise is that the bulk of the ones I did were at room temperature so it could be a fluke I saw differences but its what I saw. Room temperature was sufficient, warm bath was better based on the samples I did.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I'm glad you asked that. I didn't know either.

I had to ask, too, on another thread.

Discord is an internet community of ME patients, sharing info on the same things we do here, but apparently with less restrictive posting rules than on this thread, if I understood correctly. Which is up for grabs ....

EDIT .... for typos and disclaimer ...

 

[godlovesatrier]

Hello,

Here's my gfr, not as dramatic as yourself hip or bright - thing is I don't know if my kidneys were simply taxed because of all the green tea I was taking and that's why it went down to 70 and then back up to 90 since I reduced my egcg intake? Could literally be anything.

That second dot is August. Last dot is Jan 17th 2022. Jun 3rd was the day before my second az jab, but I felt terrific that day ironically and was likely taking 200mg egcg 2 or 3 times a day, along with the oat bran and ala, all things I don't take now or take in vastly reduced doses.

Even so thought I'd post in case people are interested. I had no idea what healthy was - glad 93 is considered very healthy.

 

[Learner1]

Hello,

Here's my gfr, not as dramatic as yourself hip or bright - thing is I don't know if my kidneys were simply taxed because of all the green tea I was taking and that's why it went down to 70 and then back up to 90 since I reduced my egcg intake? Could literally be anything.

View attachment 46942
That second dot is August. Last dot is Jan 17th 2022. Jun 3rd was the day before my second az jab, but I felt terrific that day ironically and was likely taking 200mg egcg 2 or 3 times a day, along with the oat bran and ala, all things I don't take now or take in vastly reduced doses.

Even so thought I'd post in case people are interested. I had no idea what healthy was - glad 93 is considered very healthy.

I've never seen anyone's eGFR over 200 as your lab indicates. Most patients are between 70 and 130, though most I've seen are under 100. 93 looks great. It can dip lower if one is detoxing, like down to 50, but it will bounce back up when the stressor is removed.