Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[Hip]

I am interested in any high quality scientific skepticism you can provide regarding Dr Markov's theory and treatment of ME/CFS, @jaybee00. I like a good skeptical analysis.

By high quality, I mean something that on a scientific level, by analysing the biological mechanisms involved, or the empirical data available, disproves the theory, or disproves the treatment. Good quality scientific skepticism, which opens up in-depth debate, is great. We are all looking for the truth here.

But so far, I have seen no high quality contributions on this thread. Some people have made terse skeptical remarks along the lines of "bullshit". But that really does not mean much, and does not lead to any scientific discussion.

Of course, even without applying any thought whatsoever, skeptics will be right 99% of the time. This is not necessarily because they are clever, it's just because nearly all medical theories are proven wrong in the long term. So anyone who just automatically says "nonsense!" to every new medical that appears is going to be right in 99% of cases.

This means that a skeptical stance, where one says "that will never work" to any new theory, guarantees being right 99% of the time, without having to make any effort, or put any thought into it.

 

[Hipsman]

I am a bit confused now...first you said a streptococcus autovaccine cured your PANDAS, now the suspected culprit bacteria is e.coli and the drug PGL-36 you used is a TSPO ligand... everything is something different and not directly connected from my perspective...
TSPO ligands help by decreasing neuroinflammation in the brain/microglia and don't treat pathogens...but are therfore very interesting and promising for ME/CFS...
What am I missing?

PANDAS stands for Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Streptococcal Infections
So I took autovaccine the made from streptococcus found in my nose/throat swab, but it didn't help my me/cfs. Then later we found E.Coli in my nose/throat swab and made an autovaccine from that witch improved me/cfs. The two different autovaccines treated two different medical conditions.

It is correct that TSPO ligands help by decreasing neuroinflammation in the brain/microglia and don't treat pathogens, and this TSPO ligand just reduced then neurological symptoms of PANDAS to a minimum without touching the pathogen. I suspect it did so by decreasing neuroinflammation in the brain/microglia as you said earlier.

 

[godlovesatrier]

If this was in the UK I'd jump on it, I am not going to touch the DIY stuff, I'll stick with my Famvir trial.

I personally do believe opportunistic strains of bad bacteria like e. coli and strep A do cause issues for a huge chunk of us (prob even staph) and I can see why this treatment might improve that. This only really occured to me over the last few weeks. Also as even a culture swab can turn up nothing (even when you're sick with an infection) - as was true in my case - I think these bacteria can still camp out. Even so when I did the dipslides I generally got unclear results, but it looked like I definitely had one or two strains of bacteria, which is interesting. Most people though had 3 or 4 not just 2.

I also believe one treatment won't cut it, Hipsman is right to plough on with everything not just one thing (imo).

I think we all want to get to a place where we know what things work for ME, simply so we can share it with others. But in my case anyway bacteria have been an issue for the full 6 years, albeit not as chronic as many.

 

[HealingFalcon]

https://thephoenixhasfallen.wordpress.com/

I agree with everything in the article regarding Dr. Markovs statements and have exactly the same thoughts...still, no agrument why one should not try autovaccines for chronic infections ever (there are more promising therapies out there obviously...which are probably a better fit for most and should be prioritised... noone ever denied that).
I personally don't feel like Hip pushes people to try out things. or it might be accidential/ a misinterpretation...
Everyone has to do their own research anyways...also everyone communicates differently and favours different communication styles apparently ... I understand where you are coming from but don't agree with everything.
Also, I believe with our current knowledge and possibilities it is absolutely fair to try autovaccines for chronic infections...

PS: people with a standard mathmatical background are usually far better educated to understand and connect medical research and theories than most people from a medical background

 

[HealingFalcon]

PANDAS stands for Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Streptococcal Infections
So I took autovaccine the made from streptococcus found in my nose/throat swab, but it didn't help my me/cfs. Then later we found E.Coli in my nose/throat swab and made an autovaccine from that witch improved me/cfs. The two different autovaccines treated two different medical conditions.

It is correct that TSPO ligands help by decreasing neuroinflammation in the brain/microglia and don't treat pathogens, and this TSPO ligand just reduced then neurological symptoms of PANDAS to a minimum without touching the pathogen. I suspect it did so by decreasing neuroinflammation in the brain/microglia as you said earlier.

Thanks for clarifying
Where did you get the autovaccine for your nose swap then? This was where my initial question was heading...

 

[Hipsman]

Where did you get the autovaccine for your nose swap then?

Markov's clinic can make autovaccine from bacteria found on any type of bacterial culture test, including nose/throat swab. In every case the process of making autovaccine from bacteria is the same.

 

[dday]

PANDAS stands for Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Streptococcal Infections
So I took autovaccine the made from streptococcus found in my nose/throat swab, but it didn't help my me/cfs. Then later we found E.Coli in my nose/throat swab and made an autovaccine from that witch improved me/cfs. The two different autovaccines treated two different medical conditions.

This is incredible @Hipsman ! I am so happy for you. It's great that in addition to experiencing improvements to your CFS, you also get the bonus of remission from PANDAS. The remission from PANDAS is very interesting from a scientific perspective.

I recently found an ARTICLE by a psychiatrist describing his experience in treating PANDAS symptoms in adult patients. In many of his patients, he found streptococcal overgrowth in their mouth and sinuses and managed to achieve partial to full remissions by removing their tonsils. His experience, combined with existing research on PANDAS, as well as your experience, strongly suggests that PANDAS and perhaps other psychological ailments are maintained by dysbiotic colonization of the nasal and oral cavities.

It would be a great improvement if we could treat PANDAS with autovaccines, rather than with antibiotics or tonsil removal. Tonsil removal is a blunt, invasive approach. Antibiotics unfortunately can cause dysbiosis since they kill broad swathes of bacteria and often do not fully eradicate the bacteria that is the target of treatment.

I also found a PAPER written by a couple of Japanese scientists who appear to be on a similar path as us. They used injectable and mucosal vaccines against the gut bacteria Clostridium ramosum to prevent obesity in mice. Scientists have suspected the possibility of an infectious component to obesity, and this paper seems to confirm that theory. This paper is interesting also because it involves the use of autovaccines to correct dysbiosis, similarly to Dr. Markov, but the approach was developed independently by medical researchers in Japan. I think this paper helps to corroborate the validity of Dr.Markov's approach.

 

[Cipher]

Also, the company in Germany that recently closed offered personalized autovaccines from isolated cultured blood, stool or urine samples...Why shouldn't there be other companies around the world (still open)...?

If you can find one, that would be great. But in my research, I was only able to find veterinary autovaccine services. Apparently autovaccines are used for livestock, but not routinely used on human beings.

Here's a list of custom autovaccine producers that I've found during my research:

Dr. Markov (Ukraine)

Centrum Badań Mikrobiologicznych i Autoszczepionek (Poland)

AeskuLab (Czech republic)

SymbioVaccin GmbH (Germany)
Paused production due to legal reasons

Institute of Virology, Vaccines and Sera "Torlak" (Serbia)

ASAC Pharmaceutical Immunology (Spain)

Inmunotek (Spain)

Probelte Pharma (Spain)

ITAI pharma (Spain)

 

[Hip]

Here's a list of custom autovaccine produces that I've found during my research

Another great piece of global Google-fu by Cipher!

Would you happen you know, Cipher, if any of these autovaccine producers create autovaccines for humans, or are they all just veterinary services?

I was only able to find veterinary autovaccine services when searching, like these:

Ridgeway Biologicals (UK)

 

[Cipher]

Would you happen you know, Cipher, if any of these autovaccine producers create autovaccines for humans, or are they all just veterinary services?

From what I've read they all treat humans.

 

[Hufsamor]

From what I've read they all treat humans.

Will you try?

 

[Cipher]

Will you try?

Unfortunately I have several autoimmune conditions that makes me a bit ambivalent about trying
bacterial vaccines. I'm exploring the possibility of using phage therapy first, and if that doesn't work,
perhaps try bacterial vaccines after getting intestinal helminths in order to dampen my autoimmune tendencies (if that doesn't cure my ME/CFS by itself, that is).

 

[bensmith]

Sorry, but there is no evidence to support any of this “Dr.” Markov treatment for MECFS. It’s unfortunate that this has gone on for 47 pages. This is preying on desperate people.

y’all know how sick/severe i have been.

i lifted weights yesterday(maybe less crazy than you’d think so physically i have been more capable, still improvement). I played dota 2 yesterday(this is crazy, my brain has been broken for 2 years). The day before i went out shopping, havent left the house in 1.5 years. And nothing for fun, only doctor befo.(i did crash after this loo. And cleaned a room, lifting shit.


But the fact i could attempt this is fucking insane. Like i was hungry for life. Not just in constant agony.)

I am fairly certain that it has potential to cure.

as far as i can tell, this dude is the truth.


i think it has jumped me from a 1.25 to a 3.

i got worse on staph vax, but auto vax has shown extreme efficacy. Although i dont expect it to hold, he said you jump, fo down, jump go down. Slowly raising baseline.

@Cipher i had the same concerns, no issues so far(except the staff vax made me feel like shit)

i understand the skepticism, it doesn’t reallt make sense. But life is stranger than fiction.

like i said, could be short term, or not work long term, but i haven’t had anything besides ivermectin help, and i’ve been trying all kinds of shit. This shit works some so far.

 

[Hufsamor]

So happy for you @bensmith , you had a rough path.

Just take it easy, take care, so you don’t crash yourself too hard, spoiling whatever you’ve got here…(I know, easy to say, not so easy to do )

 

[bensmith]

So happy for you @bensmith , you had a rough path.

Just take it easy, take care, so you don’t crash yourself too hard, spoiling whatever you’ve got here…(I know, easy to say, not so easy to do )

Thanks mate, doing my best. Only reason i’m pushing my body is because my disks in spine are off the cliff all of a sudden, so trying to build muscle to hold it together.

Beyond that razor tight rope, i splurged the last couple days(maybe some today as well) but i’m sure i’ll get a rhythm down at some point.

Markov also said the increase was of ability wont last so i want to get my moneye worth.

 

[Hip]

Just came across an interesting drug for recurrent UTIs: methenamine hippurate (Hiprex), which does not work for active infections, but prevents infections from reappearing. I wonder if this might help augment Dr Markov's treatment.

Methenamine hippurate is not an antibiotic, but is able to control chronic recurrent UTIs by virtue of the fact that it is broken down into antibacterial formaldehyde and ammonia in acidic environments such as the urinary tract. This gives it the advantage that it will not affect gut flora like long-term antibiotics do.

A new study on methenamine hippurate found that it had similar efficacy in preventing UTI recurrence as daily long-term antibiotic therapy.

 

[dday]

Just came across an interesting drug for recurrent UTIs: methenamine hippurate (Hiprex), which does not work for active infections, but prevents infections from reappearing. I wonder if this might help augment Dr Markov's treatment.

Methenamine hippurate is not an antibiotic, but is able to control chronic recurrent UTIs by virtue of the fact that it is broken down into antibacterial formaldehyde and ammonia in acidic environments such as the urinary tract. This gives it the advantage that it will not affect gut flora like long-term antibiotics do.

A new study on methenamine hippurate found that it had similar efficacy in preventing UTI recurrence as daily long-term antibiotic therapy.

Is the environment in the kidneys acidic? If so, then it could be a very potent addition to Dr. Markov's protocol.

 

[Hip]

Is the environment in the kidneys acidic? If so, then it could be a very potent addition to Dr. Markov's protocol.

I read here that the pH level in the glomeruli is 6, so seems to be mildly acidic:

The glomerular filtrate of blood is usually acidified by the kidneys from a pH of approximately 7.4 to a pH of about 6 in the urine. Depending on the person's acid-base status, the pH of urine may range from 4.5 to 8.

 

[Hip]

i lifted weights yesterday(maybe less crazy than you’d think so physically i have been more capable, still improvement). I played dota 2 yesterday(this is crazy, my brain has been broken for 2 years). The day before i went out shopping, havent left the house in 1.5 years. And nothing for fun, only doctor befo.(i did crash after this loo. And cleaned a room, lifting shit.


But the fact i could attempt this is fucking insane. Like i was hungry for life. Not just in constant agony.)

Great to see that you are getting substantial improvements in your ME/CFS already, @bensmith.

Since you have only had ME/CFS (long COVID) for a short time, less than 3 years, according to Dr Markov you should reach the cured state after just 6 months. So we would expect your progress to be much faster than mine or @Hipsman's.

Dr Markov finds those who have had ME/CFS for less than 3 years tend to be cured in 6 months, whereas those who have had ME/CFS for longer, like @Hipsman and myself, it takes 2 to 3 years to reach the cured state.

@Hipsman reports feeling better already, and he started the autovaccine treatment in June 2021 I believe. I started towards the end of December 2021, and am not noticing any improvements as yet.

I hope I am not one of the 7% of ME/CFS patients who do not respond to the autovaccine treatment.

 

[kangaSue]

Is the environment in the kidneys acidic? If so, then it could be a very potent addition to Dr. Markov's protocol.

I read here that the pH level in the glomeruli is 6, so seems to be mildly acidic:

Ascorbic acid makes the urine more acidic although that might only be in uninfected urine, but I see it said that taking vitamin C makes Hiprex more effective for UTI's so maybe it doesn't matter what state the urine is in using this combination.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5503439/