Active B12 Protocol Basics

[whodathunkit]

Third and last "comprehensive" post by @Freddd in the thread titled “Symptoms By Deadlock Quartet and other nutrients” http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...y-deadlock-quartet-and-other-nutrients.27482/

Although not the last post by Freddd in that thread, it's the last one detailing this information that is no a specific reply to another poster.

Again, @Freddd is the author of the information below; I’m just posting it in this sticky thread because IMO it’s important enough not to have it sink to deeper layers of the forum again.

part 2
I have mapped the dose responsiveness of the active cobalamins. Generalized healing comes in 5 layers. Four of them can be “turned on” with 100mcg of mixed AdoCbl-MeCbl absorbed daily. This is basically ¼ of a 1mg sublingual MeCbl and the equivalent of AdoCbl. All it takes to turn on widespread healing in the body is somewhat more than active cobalamins then can be delivered in the active holotranscobalamin system. As soon as there is enough MeCbl/AdoCbl distributed by diffusion healing turns on throughout the body. Some healing takes place starting with the first mcg. The entire layer 1 of healing turns on with 100mcg mixed active cobalamins daily with l-methylfolate. The difference in effectiveness between 10mcg and 100mcg appears to be approximately 100 times. The difference in the body between 100mcg and 10,000mcg is approximately 20%-40% (0.2-0.4 times). The difference in the body between 10,000mcg and 100,000mcg daily is approximately zero. There is no apparent forcing of anything in the body by large amounts of active cobalamins. In 1mg quantity their serum halflife is 30 minutes. The use of that word “forcing” gives the entirely wrong idea creating fear of healing. 100mcg of mixed active cobalamins is certainly possible by eating a large serving of liver, or a seacoast area sized serving of steamed clams or oysters.



My grandfather was kept reasonably healthy for decades by an old German cook whose “nerve tonic” stew slowed down his ALS. He was diagnosed in 1942 and died in 1973 after my grandmother got lung cancer and he was moved to a nursing home. He survived 6 months after the end of the nerve tonic stew. He was served every day a “stew” that was made by extracting all the good stuff from 5 pounds of liver daily and adding meat and veggies. He was being given every day the miracle working “protein mystery factor” which was liver extract and misidentified as CyCbl when actually it was MeCbl, AdoCbl, l-methylfolate and carnitine (the natural form of the deadlock quartet) plus all sorts of other vitamins.



So, the first level of methylation and cell formation is confined to mostly the fastest reproducing cells in the body, epithelial tissues including skin, lungs, GI mouth to anus, vaginal and so forth. 100mcg of MeCbl plus 200mcg of L-methylfolate will turn on methylation approximately 100% of the time if it is not working and if the other cofactors are present in the body, but may not until all other deadlocking items are present. The other 2 items of the 95% deadlock are AdoCbl and L-carnitine fumarate. HyCbl competes for methyl groups. HyCbl requires ATP produced by AdoCbl and l-carnitine fumarate as well as an enzyme and a methyl group supplied by MeCbl, l-methylfolate or SAM-e (produced by MeCbl and l-methylfolate).



It is this dependency of HyCbl on the presence of the products of MeCbl, L-methylfolate, AdoCbl and L-carnitine fumarate that makes it a poor choice. If the deadlock exists HyCbl can’t break the deadlock, ever, and if it does at first, it can exhaust that capacity over time and cause the deadlock to re-establish.



Folic acid and folinic acid suffer from the same deadlocked conditions. Assuming that the person is genetically capable of the conversion (approx 20% of population are not for folic acid) the conversion still requires ATP (AdoCbl + LCF and secondarily MeCbl + L-methylfolate), enzyme and methyl group (MeCbl + L-methylfolate or SAM-e). Even if the amount converted is adequate when healing isn’t in high gear it likely won’t be adequate when all levels kick in.



DEPENDENCIES

So in order for HyCbl and folinic acid to actually work, one has to have enough MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate and LCF to produce the enzymes and ATP and donate the methyl groups in the first place. Further folinic acid (and folic acid) can even block 10-20 times as much l-methylfolate for various suspected and unknown reasons.

In other words:

1. METHYLCOBALAMIN IS DEPENDENT UPON AdoCbl, L-Methylfolate and L-Carnitine Fumarate

2. ADENOSYLCOBALAMIN IS DEPENDENT UPON Mecbl, L-methylfolate and L-Carnitine Fumarate

3. L-METHYLFOLATE IS DEPENDENT UPON MeCbl, AdoCbl and L-Carnitine Fumarate

4. L-CARNTINE FUMARATE IS DEPENDENT UPON MeCbl, AdoCbl and L-methylfolate

5. FOLIC ACID IS DEPENDENT UPON MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-Carnitine Fumarate and L-methylfolate

6. FOLINIC ACID IS DEPENDENT UPON MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-Carnitine Fumarate and L-methylfolate

7. HyCbl IS DEPENDENT UPON MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-Carnitine Fumarate and L-methylfolate

8. CyCbl IS DEPENDENT UPON MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-Carnitine Fumarate and L-methylfolate



Rich hypothesized that the reason that HyCbl and CyCbl were completely ineffective in 20-40% of trials and studies for whatever the study symptoms or signs were was that the necessary cofactors were missing. I pointed out that single item MeCbl was also ineffective in studies in the 20-30% range as a single item, also likely because lack of cofactors. The mystery for Rich and me for the past 4 years or so has been which cofactors? They certainly were not usually things like C, or D, or E or magnesium, though all of those can be a most limiting factor, they are collectively less than 5% causality. It turns out from pragmatic evidence from thousands of us at this and other boards, and a few people here and elsewhere including myself and friends, who worked through it step by excruciating step, that the Deadlock Quartet is the key to it all.



NECESSARY AND SUFFICIENT

The idea of necessary and sufficient is necessary for solving problems logically and effectively. What is the minimum required to allow a system to work? It’s a good test to apply. The current state of health in the USA demonstrates that what we are eating does not fulfill that “necessary and sufficient” for good health criteria. Obesity and chronic ill health run rampant.



· The Deadlock Quartet is necessary and sufficient for good health. All four items are required to be present for any one of them to perform all it’s functions. The lack of any one can prevent methylation startup, ATP startup and general healing.

· CyCbl is not necessary or sufficient for good health.

· HyCbl is not necessary or sufficient for good health.

· Folic acid is not necessary or sufficient for good health

· Folinic acid is not necessary or sufficient for good health.

· No combination of folic acid, folinic acid, CyCbl and HyCbl is necessary or sufficient for good health, even if LCF is included.



To be sufficient they all need the Deadlock Quartet. None of these other items are necessary for the Deadlock quartet and only hinder or cripple it’s sufficiency or at best do nothing at all. The six levels of healing below can be turned on 1 or more at a time. Each level is dependent upon having the correct combination and quantity from the Deadlock Quartet.



1. First level methylation blockage - We have epithelial cell formation at this first to shut down and first to startup level of the blocked methylation. It can come and go in days. MeCbl & L-methylfolate can cause methylation startup in hours generally. These are the first things to appear when paradoxical folate deficiency occurs or for some when HyCbl is consumed and epithelial methylation is shut down (2-3 days), acne type lesions first on scalp and face and spreading to body, angular cheilitis (sores at corner of mouth), IBS (4-5 days) and other symptoms. MeCbl 100mcg absorbed & L-methylfolate 200+mcg will start correcting, and titrate to sufficiency, 100mcg diffusion level, lesser insufficiency of other factors

2. Second level of methylation blockage – Endothelial inflammation and failure, lack of deep tissue healing, deep tissue inflammation. MeCbl & AdoCbl 100mcg absorbed & L-methylfolate 800+mcg will start correcting and titrate to sufficiency, 100mcg diffusion level, greater insufficiency of other factors

3. Third level methylation blockage, METHYL TRAP. This often has sudden hard onset. It occurs for lack of MeCbl in cells so L-methylfolate is expelled from cells. Rich pointed this out when the symptoms and circumstances were described. It starts suddenly, widespread inflammation and pain, severe muscle aches and pain, MCS, asthma, allergies, sudden severe flu like illness with little or no fever. May or may not be accompanied by severe abnormal fatigue. MeCbl & (AdoCbl & LCF - fatigue) 100mcg absorbed & L-methylfolate 800+mcg will start correcting and titrate to sufficiency, 100mcg diffusion level, greater insufficiency of all factors.

4. Severe abnormal fatigue. Muscles don’t repair well. Severe muscle pains of many types. No exercise tolerance. Exercise doesn’t increase muscle or mitochondria increase. Edema, congestive heart failure. MeCbl & AdoCbl 1000mcg absorbed & L-Carnitine Fumarate & L-methylfolate 3200+mcg will start correcting and titrate to sufficiency, 1000mcg diffusion level, greater insufficiency of all factors before treatment.

5. Severe abnormal fatigue. Muscles don’t repair well. Severe muscle pains of many types. No exercise tolerance. Exercise doesn’t increase muscle or mitochondria increase. Muscles atrophy. Everything is breaking down. Edema and congestive heart failure. Only watery fat, if anything, increases. Large weight gains on minimal food. MeCbl & AdoCbl 1000mcg absorbed & L-Carnitine Fumarate & L-methylfolate 3200+mcg (titrated to sufficiency) will start correcting, 1,000mcg daily diffusion level, greater insufficiency of all factors before treatment.

6. CNS functioning and healing may require much larger doses of AdoCbl and MeCbl to penetrate the CSF/CNS by diffusion. MeCbl & AdoCbl 10000mcg absorbed 3 times daily & L-Carnitine Fumarate & L-methylfolate 3200+mcg (titrated to sufficiency) will start correcting, 30,000mcg daily diffusion level needed.



Rich largely ignored AdoCbl. I had been lumping it in with MeCbl for a small specialized role in the mitochondria. We were both wrong. Over time processing the fats for making myelin was added to the understood functions of AdoCbl. However, that did not explain why some people had such a dramatic difference by taking it daily, such as my own daughter. For 8 years I had suggested taking AdoCbl from once a week to once a day. With the publication of Carmen Wheatley’s “Large Gorilla … Adenosylcobalamin …” (free download, don’t miss it http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carmen_Wheatley/publications/ ) I found a reason to take it daily myself and a proposed hypothesis for why there is so much variation in its effect between people. Utilization of B12/folate in the body operates on two major levels. When the necessary nutrients are in the body in sufficient quantity and distribution, generalized healing turns on. When any of these are insufficient, generalized healing turns off and goes into a starvation mode of conserving resources and barely getting by. This starvation mode is what has been researched for the past 60 years. Rich did see the key to getting out of that starvation mode, turn on methylation.



I think that the differences we see in different people is related to how well people convert MeCbl to AdoCbl and that some people don’t appear to convert it at all. The results over the years also show that virtually nobody converts as much MeCbl to AdoCbl as the body actually can use and that there is a great deal of variability across a population. Eating meat, people get a mix of AdoCbl and MeCbl. Most of our bodies appear to be able to handle small scale interconversion making the exact ratio unimportant. However, those who can’t interconvert require both forms every day. In those people the diffusion level of healing of AdoCbl disappears if they don’t have some every day. For people who CAN’T interconvert MeCbl to AdoCbl adequately the HTC2 transport doesn’t deliver AdoCbl for use in controlling inflammation. It HAS to come via diffusion as AdoCbl in the first place. Right here is a reason that 100mcg of AdoCbl/MeCbl in diffusion has such a dramatically greater effectiveness in healing than 10mcg of cobalamin (MeCbl? or stripped of ligand requiring assembly at point of usage?) bound in HTC2. To convert MeCbl or a stripped cobalamin to AdoCbl requires an enzyme and ATP (requiring presence of AdoCbl in mitochondria and l-carnitine fumarate as well, Deadlock Quartet raises its head again). That would explain why these people who require AdoCbl daily require another 2 pharmacodynamic compartments to model this different behavior of AdoCbl in body and CNS, why it models like serum MeCbl

 

[Martial]

Important info from a private message with Fred.

"Hi Todd,

methyl folate can range from 400, to roughly 1600mg a day.. Do you think that low dose of folate would even trigger paradox deficiency? It seems most people that had that were using much higher doses...-Todd

This one you have 100% backwards. A low dose like this almost always triggers donut hole paradoxical folate deficiency. Higher doses relieve it. Low dose methylfolate PFD can cause massive inflammation.

Daily doses of B1 and B2 above 30-50mg a day and B3 above 100mg a day can cause an insatiable need for methylfolate and potassium, so make sure that is ok. Remind me that you are not taking NAC, glutathione or Whey.

If you want to get rid of low folate symptoms and inflammation try 4mg of l-methylfolate or so each 4-6 hours Typically it will start turning around within a few hours and after a day or 3 you should know for sure. Now it is possible you are one of those who needs 30mg a day to make any headway but that is rare without folic acid or folinic acid or large amounts of vegetable folate.

Try 8mg before you go to bed tonight. Metafolin has no side effects different from sugar pills. That is what the Deplin study says at doses up to 30mg/day. Best results are at 15 and 30mg daily. That is what all my experience says. The people who take tiny doses have terrible reactions and think it is because of so much folate instead of so little. They have even worse responses with 200 mcg of folinic and 200mcg of mfolate. Wow do they get hit. That is because of a double whammy paradoxical folate deficiency. Without the folate you are wasting your money and wasting 90% of the b12. You could get equally bad results from 500mcg of b12.

Try it cautiously, 4 mg and then 4rmg in couple of more hours to avoid possible stomach distress or take 8mg and some food and go for it. You could be a new man in 2 days.

After you get rid of all the folate deficiency symptoms, then is the time to adjust other things. Doing it otherwise is bass akwards.

Now this is my opinion and experience. Everybody who takes the small doses has terrible results and a rough time. The people who use the larger doses get healing going. You can always go back but I would bet you won't want to. Do as you wish. It is your game of you bet your life. I would bet on the bigger "go for it" doses.

Fred"

 

[ahmo]

I've just re-read Martial/Todd's post of a comment Freddd made re raising folate levels. slowly and carefully.

I searched for hours to find that definitive a statement a few months ago. In the end, my brainpower could only manage to ask what I knew at the time was a weird and missing-the-point question, about the relationship of folate to B12. I was desperate to understand how to go about increasing my dose. Prior to this, a year ago, I had experiences from both increasing B12 and increasing folate independently. As I recall, in both cases I lost hair and my scalp became covered with small scabby outbreak. At the first, and worst episode, I was sure I was 'detoxxing', because I'd just begun high zinc and other mineral intake. I lost handfuls of hair.

I notice my conversation w/ Freddd, quoted below, was 3 months ago, and I was taking 1.1mg Mfolate. With the instructions Freddd gave, quoted below, I began increasing my dose by 200-300mcg every day or 2. My symptoms narrowed down to a few easily observable ones: a bit of acne, sores at my occiput, scabs on my head, hair loss. I notice now that I can have hair loss in one part of the day, and not in the other. It's that rapid. The same with the other symptoms. Think epithelial. Not long before the conversation I quote below, I'd asked for help re recurrent blood blisters in my mouth. Freddd responded that he'd no experience, but to think epithelial. That was my wake-up call. I was ready to bust through my mental barriers.

I'd been very conservative in following Freddd's protocol because I kept reading Rich VanK's injunctions about it, his concern that the high doses were peculiar to Freddd's genetics. I repeatedly tried all the elements of the SMP, over a few years, long before knowing there was a forum here. It never worked, I no longer expected anything much from B12 or folate. I searched and re-searched over weeks, when my brain and arms were still very much impaired, to work out whether the correct carnitine was ALCAR or fumarate, LCF. I had ALCAR on hand, that certainly didn't do anything. And because I just couldn't find the information, I decided fumarate must be the one I shouldn't take and so went on to another form. When I took my first dose of LCF, Brighten, quicken, enliven, lights-on are the only way to describe it.

So I've continued pushing up based on my symptoms and using self-testing for setting doses. Today I'm at 13.9 mg Mfolate, dividing doses at early AM, midday, bedtime. Inconceivable to me 3 months ago. I'm taking 7.5 mg AdenoB12 , never self-test to go beyond that. MB12 is 15-16mg. I take 500mg L-Carnitine Fumarate, PM/midday.

Cutting my B vits down to very low doses has also been a boon for me. Not only did this stop the insatiable need for potassium, as Freddd said it would, but it eliminated a big sulfur burden for me, freeing up the residual holdings in my 2 formerly-frozen shoulders. I'm now taking what's essentially a 12mg B Complex BID. I would have laughed at the thought that 25 mg B vitamins had any benefit in the days I took high B's to calm my nervous system.

So how am I? I'm calm. For the first time in my life I'm calm. After a lifetime of seeking. Before I got to the B12/folate, there was eliminating gluten and dairy, correcting the minerals, removing sulfur and histamines. Detox of microbes and metals is ongoing. But clearly since the full-on B12 protocol there is no longer any form of insomnia, first time in my life. My head space has never been more clear. My cognition is not what it was, but frankly, I now doubt everything about it in the past. I see now how much tendency I had toward ADHD. Luckily I'm old enough to have eaten well and lived cleanly. I'm not able to "be in the world", but I've come to relish my reclusiveness. My overall resilience is increasing. My nervous system is no longer in over-drive. I'd been taking hypothalamus and adrenal glandulars 2/day for 2-3 years. That's now reduced to 1 each. I've reduced my thryoid rx. I can finally meditate again, which was impossible for 2 or 3 years. I now see how much my entire life was under-pinned by profound B12/folate deficiency.

Re B12, I've found that when I get symptoms from "over-methylation" after increasing folate....euphoria/hyper, weepy eyes...not quite draining, but thicker than tears, the other night I had tremendous itching in the webs between my fingers...I take a 1mg ET MB12 immediately, and the symptom clears, almost immediately. I think this must be where Ben Lynch advises niacin to tone things down. For me B12 does the trick. Generally this dose becomes part of an ongoing increase of B12, but not always

[Note: I just realized my volubility in this post is, in fact, partially a result of post-folate-increase euphoria. ]

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/b-12-the-hidden-story.142/page-145#post-413578
Here's me:

Yes, I know, weird. It's just that in all my reading today I see clear indications re the other DQ three re dosages, but although I came across references to Deplin, and to 7 mg., I found few references to Mfolate dosages.

I've really only got one easily trackable symptom at present, a skin outbreak along my occiput. Actually, my notes show that after I increased folate by 200mcg a couple days ago, they decreased. Fortunately I've been getting very quick symptom relief when I change dosages. This must get to the crux of my lack of understanding: I can increase the folate, either just a bit, or should I be aiming toward a dose between 2 and 7 mg.? Or should I be increasing the folate a little and pushing up the MB12? And then as I increase the B12, adding the folate to keep out of insufficiency? (ie. dosing for symptoms) If I'm looking beyond my immediate symptoms, there's the more significant need to address CNS and overall endurance/stamina. This makes as much sense as I can distill from what I'm stuck on. Thanks lot's. ahmo

Here's what Freddd said at that time.

Increasing MeCbl quantities isn't likely to change the amount of l-methylfolate needed. Adding AdoCbl might increase need somewhat because it opens up other layers of healing. Deplin is Metafolin which is a specific stable form of l-methylfolate You are aiming for the amount that will keep you out of paradoxical folate deficiency/insufficiency. It might be 4mg it might be 30mg. At this point I'm inclined to say that having to go as high as 30 probably indicates a lack of other things. I found that I reached that point fastest by increasing the dose by 50%-100% a day until the symptoms were fully controlled or at least visibly healing, which now goes to my earliest onset symptom, retaining water. After dropping the extra B1, B2 and B3 I appeared to have folate deficiency minimized but after a few months the skin around my fingernails is too ragged. It is appears to be the most mild symptom that takes months to show. So I have increased my dose to 8mg a day, from 4 to try for the next few months and see what heals. Things get slower as you pick off the quick incremental changes.

 

[Martial]

Wow great post @ahmo!

So how long have you been at these correct doses, and are you still sick in anyway?

I know you said you are not "being in this world" but rather enjoy the reclusiveness...

Where do you find such high doses of methyl folate? Is Deplin the only one that provides this dose easily?

I always assumed I was taking at least 10mg a day.. Turns out my pills were at 5,000mcg each serving, so I was taking 10,000mcg not MG! lol Shit, how the hell can anyone get up to 10mg a day without taking in 100's of pills, and spending 100's of dollars.. Unless they use Deplin.

In fact I may just try and get a psych to prescribe me some Deplin and hit those proper numbers easy! I believe there doses are at 7.5 mg, and 15mg..

I still have very severe depression symptoms so won't be too hard to get them to let me try it out

I don't know how the hell others on here were hitting those high numbers of folate with other supplement brands cause now looking at Solgar's it is only 400mcg, 800mcg, and 1,000mcg... I am SO confused now lol... am I getting this all right or does the Deplin brand also use 7,500mcg, and 15,000 mcg doses?

 

[Martial]

Just found this on another forum discussing Deplin

One Deplin® 7.5mg tablet is bioequivalent to taking seventy-five 800 mcg folic acid pills

what the holy hell?!?!

How was anyone hitting even 5mg of folate using solgars brand name metafolin?!

 

[Martial]

Okay, just went through Fred's old posts and he recommended doses in the MCG not MG so this would be at least 10,000 to 30,000 mcg at the highest. Interesting still because Deplin contains still far more folate then even that. Do you think using Deplin doses of folate would cause issues because of trying to hit b12 doses to match it Ahmo? I know the b12 is recommended in doses upward to 30,000mg a day but that is not what is fully absorbed when said in done.

Damn this is all so interesting lol

 

[ahmo]

@Martial, I'm using Life Extensions 1mg caps and some 1mg tabs, don't have the original bottle/brand, that I cut for my lower doses. My next order, I might get a 5mg Mfolate I've seen on iherb. But they dont' work out any cheaper than the same qty of 1mg. There are at least a couple 1000mcg/1mg brands. I searched for Deplin, doesn't seem to be available in Aus. I thought it might be an rx covered by our Medicare, but it's not on the lists at all, as far as I've found. In my recall of searching for info, I think the references are to 7mg, 30mg.

I always assumed I was taking at least 10mg a day.. Turns out my pills were at 5,000mcg each serving, so I was taking 10,000mcg not MG!

You were taking 10mg.

@whodathunkit posted recently something re Mfolate being taken off the market, Merck trying to eliminate them from OTC. Don't know where that's going. I noticed Klinghardt said the same of P5P in the vid I watched which was from about 2011.

I wondered after our last exchg if you might have been the one who initially posted the Klinghardt vid I then suggested to you..Highly possible, I have zero memory.

 

[Martial]

@ahmo, so 1,000mcg IS 1mg of methyl folate? Lol okay things are making more sense again, and this means that Deplin is just 7,500 mcg, and 15,000 mcg respectably. Also just realized through looking into it more and Deplin IS the Merck company drug that is trying to get FDA to ban Methyl folate supplements. I do not know who is trying to pull P5P from the market though.


I just got confused when they mentioned a Deplin doses being equivalent to 75 Folic Acid pills which is not Methyl Folate

 

[whodathunkit]

@ahmo, not me posting the Klinghardt vid but I did post the speculation about maybe Merck was the one behind the screwy FDA wording that could effectively ban folate from supplements without actually outlawing it.

However, I will say that my speculation was just that...speculation. Part of me thinks Merck has to know they'd be stupid to do that because they have so much $$$ to gain from selling to consumers and so much to lose if they "firewall" folate behind prescriptions. I hope to heaven if they have anyone trolling these boards they'll tell the brass at Merck to consider the $$$ and goodwill they'd gain by actually advocating for consumers instead of coming off like money-grubbing tyrants all the time. I'm buying the farm every week in metafolin, myself. I'd rather do that than go through the rigmarole of trying to get an "on label" diagnosis for Deplin, which I probably couldn't get anyway because I don't really consider myself as suffering from depression any more, although I have little episodes. Most doctors would want me to try other anti-depressants first and there's no way I'm EVER going through that again.

 

[whodathunkit]

@ahmo, @Martial: my understanding is that Deplin is made by another company that Merck licenses rights to use metafolin in their brand-name substance. This company makes Deplin but pays Merck for the right to use metafolin.

I'm not entirely sure Merck is behind this push, since they're making money off of it. It could be a variety of organizations behind it, including the AMA (because many people are using these supplements to actually help themselves without *gasp* seeking a doctor's advice!) or folic acid creators/manufacturers seeking to corner the market. Etc. So many forces nowdays not out for the general good it's hard to keep your head on straight when considering who's behind something like this.

If anyone read my posts in the FDA thread and thought I meant that I knew Merck was behind it...I don't. I was just speculating.

If anyone has proof or some authoritative source that says definitely Merck is behind it, I'd love to see that.

 

[ahmo]

@whodathunkit, thanks for these clarifications. I was aiming my comment re vid repost to Martial, but it seems it wasn't him, either.

@Martial, Am I still sick in any way?...Yes, that's what I meant about being-in-the-world. I've adapted to and accepted and frankly, love, my reclusiveness now. However, one of the first things I lost w/ my collapse into ME/CFS was my relationships. I didn't have the breath, stamina, patience, focus...to be able to relate to anyone. Now, I have the breath, a bit more stamina, but consider myself pretty incapable of relating for the most part. My current activities here at pr mark my improvements. I no longer need to communicate in one-line telegraphic responses. I can formulate my thoughts and express them. My vocabulary has increased...yesterday I spontaneously used both voluble and verbose. But the thought of being in a social setting, politely sharing a back-and-forth conversation, fills me not with pleasure, but low-level dread.

There are a number of thoughts I had after my post, might edit later to include a few more gains. Like no more tremulousness or muscle fasiculations; my calves no longer resemble half-filled water balloons. But the point I really wanted to make was Freddd's caution to me when I wrote that I've been increasing my exercise. Don't confuse healing with rehabilitation, he said. Healing happens, and then rehabilitation will take another year. So I apply this to not only my exercise tolerance, but to my feelings re relating. A year from now I might be enmeshed in activities!

 

[whodathunkit]

My vocabulary has increased...yesterday I spontaneously used both voluble and verbose.

Hey, not only do you use those words now-days, you exemplify them!

 

[ahmo]

@whodathunkit

 

[aaadrien]

Thank you very much @Freddd the OP of these great information, @whodathunkit for the great info compilation, thanks also to the other contributors.

I would really appreciate if someone can help me with the following questions :

- Should the amount of MeCbl and methylfolate be balanced? If I take 16mg of methylfolate should I aim for 16mg MeCbl?

- Are there certain mutations where high doses of MeCbl and methylfolate are not advisable?

- After methylation has started should one supplement with potassium even if he is already meeting the RDA with food?

- For how long is folic acid stored in the body?

Thanks very much in advance,
Adrien

 

[Martial]

@aaadrien

Yes always match metyl folate to b12 levels, you could you 10mg of each if that is cheaper for you... Generally if they are in similar ranges it works fine i.e. 20mg folate 15mg of b12, though recently I found better benifit by matching them in more exact dose. Also It might help to take folate 20 minutes after the b12 has finished dissolving.

I don't know of any mutations where these may be not advisable, I know Dr. Yasko has different tests and theories on why things like hydroxy may benefit some more then others... However in Fred's experience and others of his program hydroxy seems useless and is just a down graded quality version of methyl folate that is not as easily processed in the body. Whether someone takes hydroxy b12, or Cyano b12, both of them have to get converted to methyl b12 to be fully utilized by the body this is the issue because many people do not have the proper mechanism to do this, this is also where mutations come into play where processing of folic acid or synthetic b12 is not possible.

Yes, you should. It takes a bit of time for the potassium in foods to be processed, in supplemental potassium the benefits are more immediate. Taking supplemental potassium around the time you take the protocol folate and b12s can really help. I take 1,000mg with the supplements, and add 1,000 more twice a day usually with some meals totaling 3,000mg of supplemental potassium a day. This is also combined with a high potassium, low sodium diet. You never want to take too much potassium though like say 10,000mg of supplemental potassium; this will induce hyperkalemia the other side of hypokalemia except with too much potassium instead of too little. It is rare with foods through diet as you just pee the excess potassium out, however if you go a little too crazy on supplemental potassium then there is potential for that.

Folic Acid is a water soluble vitamin so the half life of it is not very long lived in the body, except for pre stored levels but that usually consists of folate when it is converted.. Whatever is not converted or is in excess will be peed out. I think I read somewhere that excess levels or unused folate is no more then a few hours. 24 at most.

 

[mgd1972]

@aaadrien

Yes always match metyl folate to b12 levels, you could you 10mg of each if that is cheaper for you... Generally if they are in similar ranges it works fine i.e. 20mg folate 15mg of b12, though recently I found better benifit by matching them in more exact dose. Also It might help to take folate 20 minutes after the b12 has finished dissolving.

Do you mean total b12 or just mb12? I'm taking 10 mg adb12 and 5-10 mb12. I have been taking more like 30 mg of folate. Should I cut back? What symptoms would indicate I should go higher or lower?

Also, I thought it was recommended to take the folate before the b12? Does it vary from person to person? Does it matter much?

 

[whodathunkit]

@mgd1972: Freddd says in post #33 of this thread

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...tion-and-mislabeling.22529/page-2#post-429422

that only a small amount of mB12 is needed to "activate" methylfolate. Money quote:

It appears that perhaps 100mcg absorbed daily of MeCbl-AdoCbl is adequate for startup of all levels except CNS in people with low CSF cobalamin levels due to unknown causes, apparently genetic. More active b12 allows for deeper tissue penetration and somewhat faster healing but folate requirements don't appear affected by b12 quantities once that necessary minimum level is reached with it distributed by diffusion directly in the active form (mucosal absorption or injection)

So it seems that once we get our depleted active B12 levels up to more or less normal, we maybe don't need a whole lot unless we want to affect CNS healing. Freddd's theory, anyway.

How much you take (folate or the B12's) probably also depends on what symptoms you have, what start-up symptoms you get that you can tolerate, and what is your ultimate goal of taking these supplements.

For myself, I don't "match" amounts of folate to B12 but try to keep a good supply of both active cobalamins around, as well as a good supply of folate. One thing I'm trying to do is see if large daily doses of mB12 affect my hearing loss in a positive way, otherwise I might not be so hell-bent on taking as much as I do. So far it seems like things might be getting a little louder, but it's probably way too soon to tell.

The other thing I'm doing is trying to see if a lot of folate will positively affect the health of my lady parts. Again, it's pretty soon to tell. But that's what I'm trying to do. Overall I feel much better, so that makes it a little easier to stick with, at least for now.

 

[aaadrien]

Hi Martial,

Thank you very much for all these information.

I will try to match methyl folate and b12 exactly, I took 12mg of b12 yesterday without major problems.

Sure i will continue with the MeCbl/AdoCbl, and take supplemental potassium.

That's great news if folic acid isn't stored for a long time in the body, because I took quite a lot for quite a long time before knowing about its detrimental effects.

 

[Martial]

@mgd1972: Freddd says in post #33 of this thread

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...tion-and-mislabeling.22529/page-2#post-429422

that only a small amount of mB12 is needed to "activate" methylfolate. Money quote:



So it seems that once we get our depleted active B12 levels up to more or less normal, we maybe don't need a whole lot unless we want to affect CNS healing. Freddd's theory, anyway.

How much you take (folate or the B12's) probably also depends on what symptoms you have, what start-up symptoms you get that you can tolerate, and what is your ultimate goal of taking these supplements.

For myself, I don't "match" amounts of folate to B12 but try to keep a good supply of both active cobalamins around, as well as a good supply of folate. One thing I'm trying to do is see if large daily doses of mB12 affect my hearing loss in a positive way, otherwise I might not be so hell-bent on taking as much as I do. So far it seems like things might be getting a little louder, but it's probably way too soon to tell.

The other thing I'm doing is trying to see if a lot of folate will positively affect the health of my lady parts. Again, it's pretty soon to tell. But that's what I'm trying to do. Overall I feel much better, so that makes it a little easier to stick with, at least for now.

Interesting I did not know this before, however I use higher doses to heal my CNS from lyme disease personally thanks for sharing! I guess "matching doses" is not necessary, I could of sworn I read about it from somewhere before though... Either way I guess it would be just taking more then necessary rather then harmful so thats good.. There is no upper known toxicity level of vitamin b12 or folate. I still would say that even if b12 does not need to be high the folate obviously needs to be high enough to prevent paradoxical folate deficiency, having b12 to match the doses helps in terms of not lowering b12 levels as well but this more applies to people with severely deficient b12 levels or prenecious anemia..


In any case I think either way would work as long as a person is SURE to prevent any paradoxical folate deficiency or potassium deficiency then they will do well!

 

[whodathunkit]

@Martial said:

In any case I think either way would work as long as a person is SURE to prevent any paradoxical folate deficiency or potassium deficiency then they will do well!

Yes, totally agree! Sorry if that did not come across in my post. My main point was not to get hung up on "ratios" of B12 : methylfolate, as some of us with OCD tendencies may be wont to do, and focus more on symptoms, because the theory is that as long as you're getting enough B12 to get "started", which is a pretty small amount, methylfolate will work.

Also worth noting is that this 100mcg amount Freddd mentioned does not say anything about how much a person needs to make up for existing deficiencies. That amount initially is possibly (or maybe probably) larger.

Other point being is it's an individual thing so none of us needs to get too hung up on what amounts other people are taking and listen to your bod and let it tell you what to do. If you're really going down a wrong path it will usually let you know, as long as you're listening.