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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Leela, I know about interminable searches!:confused:
     
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @howirecovered, I've only just looked at your FAQ page. WELL DONE!!! Great lay-out and selection. I'll be using it for myself and sending others there. cheers, ahmo
     
    howirecovered likes this.
  3. SanDiego#1

    SanDiego#1 SanDiego#1

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    Where is the FAQ page???

    San Diego #1
     
  4. SanDiego#1

    SanDiego#1 SanDiego#1

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    What is Freddd's Methalation Protocal??
     
  5. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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  6. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Here's another short version I just discovered today:


    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/b-12-the-hidden-story.142/page-141#post-390845
     
    leela likes this.
  7. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @howirecovered
    Oh my goodness, I can't believe how organized your FAQ page is! It's just what I need! I actually can't believe someone could be able to do that. Thank you so much.
     
    howirecovered and SanDiego#1 like this.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I would like to let everybody know that Country Life is old news from before the problems with folic acid became known. At this point I would suggest Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex and use a portion of the capsule, 1/10 to 1/2, between lower lip and gum for 1-2 hours, as with the MeCbl.
     
  9. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    OK Freddd, maybe you can answer the questions I've been searching for all day. Which happily brought me to howirecovered's FAQ page.

    How much Mfolate do you now consider should be a "reasonable" goal. I know it's totally individual. But in all my searching today I just can't get a handle on it. I can't really find a dose beyond 800mcg listed in your more recent suggestions. I'm currently on 1100mcg.

    I also found a recent suggestion of using a 1:1 dose of adB12 : MB12. Is that accurate? Daily, rather than dosing 1-2/week of AdB12?

    And finally, is Mfolate ok @ bedtime? I'm at a point now to try to get the coverage/half-life better managed. And a possibly odd question, is the folate really mostly a means of being able to increase the B's? I ask that because the real dosage increases as far as I can see today, have to do w/ the B12, not folate. cheers, ahmo
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ahmo,

    How much Mfolate do you now consider should be a "reasonable" goal. I know it's totally individual. But in all my searching today I just can't get a handle on it. I can't really find a dose beyond 800mcg listed in your more recent suggestions. I'm currently on 1100mcg.

    That is a reasonable starting dose. Since it is by titration, not "goal" one is doing it by reduction of deficiency symptoms or improvement in healing.. It really depends on whether the person has significant blocking by folinic acid, folic acid or veggie folates or takes too much b1, b2 and/or b3. Anywhere from 1600mcg to 30mg might be what is needed. In the Deplin studies in regards to depression the most effective doses were 15mg and 30mg. The 7.5 mg wasn't enough for most. I have listed it several times at something like this.

    1. Donut hole paradoxical folate deficiency or insufficiency, up to 2000-6000mcg
    2. Folic Acid blockade - 8,000- 12,000mcg
    3. Folic acid, folinic acid and veggie folates blockade, 16,0000-30,000mcg
    And all the above might be increased or decreased by adjusting B1, B2 and B3. Too much of one or more increases the need for methylfolate and potassium and can decrease healing.

    I also found a recent suggestion of using a 1:1 dose of adB12 : MB12. Is that accurate? Daily, rather than dosing 1-2/week of AdB12?

    Daily rather than weekly dosing seems to be better for inflammation and maybe neurological healing. The answers are not clear except that some people do a lot better with more AdoCbl more often and some find less makes no difference. There is no clear cut answer at all. Try both, see what works better. It might also depend upon how much inflammation one has. Zinc is an important cofactor for that.


    And finally, is Mfolate ok @ bedtime? I'm at a point now to try to get the coverage/half-life better managed. And a possibly odd question, is the folate really mostly a means of being able to increase the B's? I ask that because the real dosage increases as far as I can see today, have to do w/ the B12, not folate.

    Several doses of methylfolate work better than one dose for most people. With MeCbl and AdoCbl in the body, and l-carnitine, by the time equilibrium is reached and the folate deficiency symptoms are on the mend no single dose makes any noticeable difference.

    And a possibly odd question, is the folate really mostly a means of being able to increase the B's? I ask that because the real dosage increases as far as I can see today, have to do w/ the B12, not folate. cheers

    I don't understand. Please explain. Folate dose is completely independent of MeCbl or AdoCbl dose once one has enough to turn on healing.
     
    howirecovered likes this.
  11. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Yes, I know, weird. It's just that in all my reading today I see clear indications re the other DQ three re dosages, but although I came across references to Deplin, and to 7 mg., I found few references to Mfolate dosages.

    I've really only got one easily trackable symptom at present, a skin outbreak along my occiput. Actually, my notes show that after I increased folate by 200mcg a couple days ago, they decreased. Fortunately I've been getting very quick symptom relief when I change dosages. This must get to the crux of my lack of understanding: I can increase the folate, either just a bit, or should I be aiming toward a dose between 2 and 7 mg.? Or should I be increasing the folate a little and pushing up the MB12? And then as I increase the B12, adding the folate to keep out of insufficiency? (ie. dosing for symptoms) If I'm looking beyond my immediate symptoms, there's the more significant need to address CNS and overall endurance/stamina. This makes as much sense as I can distill from what I'm stuck on. Thanks lot's. ahmo:rolleyes:
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ahmo,

    Increasing MeCbl quantities isn't likely to change the amount of l-methylfolate needed. Adding AdoCbl might increase need somewhat because it opens up other layers of healing. Deplin is Metafolin which is a specific stable form of l-methylfolate You are aiming for the amount that will keep you out of paradoxical folate deficiency/insufficiency. It might be 4mg it might be 30mg. At this point I'm inclined to say that having to go as high as 30 probably indicates a lack of other things. I found that I reached that point fastest by increasing the dose by 50%-100% a day until the symptoms were fully controlled or at least visibly healing, which now goes to my earliest onset symptom, retaining water. After dropping the extra B1, B2 and B3 I appeared to have folate deficiency minimized but after a few months the skin around my fingernails is too ragged. It is appears to be the most mild symptom that takes months to show. So I have increased my dose to 8mg a day, from 4 to try for the next few months and see what heals. Things get slower as you pick off the quick incremental changes.
     
  13. SanDiego#1

    SanDiego#1 SanDiego#1

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    SOME VERY GOOD POSTS HERE.I HAVE HAD CFS/MS SINCE 89. INF DISEASE DR. PUT ME ON IMMUNE GLOBULIN. IM WEEK LY AND ON CYANCOBOLOMINE AT THE SAME TIME. WITHIN A 3 WEEK PERIOD I WAS IMPROVED WHEN BEFORE I HAD TO QUIT WORK AFTER PESTICIDE POISENING AND MONO .. I REALIZE THIS WAS A LONG TIME AGO-HOWEVER, HE KNEW MORE OF WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG THANANY OF THE DR NOW. MOST OF THEM NOW JUST WANT TO PROVE THEY ARE RIGHT.

    I COULD NEVER TAKE CHEALATION. WOUUND UP IN EMERGENCY ROOM. THS DR HAD WARNED ME NOT TO TRY IT. HAVE SEEN MANY CFIDS DR. AND HAVE HAD TO FIGURE A LOT OUT ON MY OWN. I AM SEEING AN ENVIRONMENTAL DR. THAT IS PRESCRIBING HYDORXY B-12 INJECTION SUB Q 1 CC. 3 CC 2 TIMES WEEKLY-COMPOUNDED WITH NO PRES.

    I AM ON GLUTEN FREE DIET AND ALSO HAVE BEEN ON A CPAP MACHINE-WHICH I ASK FOR MYSELF-NO DR MENTIONED IT WHEN I WAS HAVING PALPITATIONS AND DIZZINESS. ENERGY IS WAY UP AFTER MACHINE USE. AS I QUIT BREATHING 30 TIME DURING THE NIGHT SO SLEEP QUALITY WAS BAD AM TAKING PURE ENCAPSULATION FOLATE 1600 MG EVERY DAY ALSO OMEGA 3 -2 CAPS A DAY AND COQ 10 2 DAILY.THE B-12 FOR ME HAS TO BE IN SHOTS . YOU LOSE IT METOBOLIZING WHEN YOU DO IT ORAL EVEN IF IT IS SUB LINGUAL..

    ALSO ON MOTHER EARTH "THE GIFT FOR MINERAL AND VITAMIN MIXED IN WATER 1-2 TIMES DAILY AS IT ALSO DOES A SLOW CHEALATION. I HAD TO START ON 1/2 TSP IN THE BEGIINING OF THE GIFT. NOW AM UP TO 2 TABLESPOON. TOOK ME 6 MONTHS TO DO THIS. ALSO VSL#3 PROBIOTIC 3 TIMES A DAY.. AND SCHIFF DAILY PROBIOTIC, PLUS SCHIFF LACTOSE INTOLERANT PROBIOTIC. YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE PROBIOTIC FOR ANYTHING TO WORK. I HAD NO STOOL STUDIES THIS PAST GO AROUND.
    HEART PALPITATIONS HAVE ALMOST STOPPED SINCE I AM ON CPAP MACHINE.

    I CANNOT REC THIS HIGHLY ENOUGH. HOWEVER YOU NEED TO FIND A GOOD SLEEP SPECIALIST TO DIAGNOSE YOU. THE FIRST ONE I WENT TO WAS NOT THOROUGH AND THE PRESSURE WAS TOO HIGH.
    ONLY DRUG I AM ON IS A 5 MG VALIUM AND MAGNESIUM CAPSULE TO GO TO SLEEP AT NIGHT.

    STILL PRINTING OFF ALL THE GREAT INFO HERE TO SEE IF I NEED TO TWEAK ANYTHING.

    AGAIN-GREAT INFO. PLEASE KEEP IN MIND -YOU CAN SOLVE ALOT OF YOUR PROBLEMS YOURSELF.
    STRESSWISE- I HAVE FOUND I JUST HAVE TO WALK AWAY FROM SOME THINGS. IT TAKES PRACTICE.
    DIET AND PROBIOTICS PLUS THE B-12 HAVE WORKED FOR ME BEST WITH MY SLEEP MACHINE..MY B-12 INJ HAVE TO BE WITHOUT PRESERVATIVES.

    SAN DIEGO #1
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2013
  14. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    Fred, would you say it's reasonable to aim for a quantity of folate at which startup reactions disappear? I've been tentatively aiming for 4 mg of folate and I realize that's arbitrary. I'm at 3 mg now and every 200 mcg increase is a battle for two or three days.

    I don't have an easy yardstick for my healing so I've been operating under the assumption that I'll be getting enough folate when I don't react to increases anymore whether that's 5 mg or 10...
     
  15. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    I remember hearing Rich say a while back that in the trial of his simplified protocol, the vast majority of non-responders (if not the totality? memory is sluggish) were those who also had Lyme. I wonder if going after borrelia first is a good strategy? Rather a conundrum, as trying to detox from bacterial die-off without sufficient detox pathways can be challenging. Doable, but challenging.
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Howirecovered,

    I don't have an easy yardstick for my healing so I've been operating under the assumption that I'll be getting enough folate when I don't react to increases anymore whether that's 5 mg or 10

    And this is AFTER you have titrated until all insufficiency symptoms are gone.?


    startup reactions disappear

    Some thongs that startup are the feeling of active healing more or less, you wantg to keep those going. Induced deficiency symptoms you want to correct. Two entirely different things,



    I can' really answer your questions as asked. They don't make sense to me.


    . I'm at 3 mg now and every 200 mcg increase is a battle for two or three days.

    What kind of battle? What symptoms?
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Leela,

    Rich and I discussed this study privately and he sent me a more complete data set. I reanalyzed it on a different basis. When I divided the symptoms out by nutrients, as on the lists in in the Levels of Methylation and Healing post, the response rates of the symptoms were banded by nutrient. It was interesting. As Rich and I discussed more than half the symptoms were not ones we would have included over others that were left out but that was done to be able to include some folks already under treatment with data collection. The results were interesting and suggestive but really a second study with improvements would have been very helpful. Unfortunately he did not have all the individual responses for detection of patterns across people rather than averaged data. That would have allowed a reanalysis with Lyme in mind.
     
  18. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    Thanks, Freddd, good to know. This would be a really great thing to study, as so many people have both chronic Lyme and ME,
    and optimal treatment order is a perpetual guessing game.
     
  19. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    And this is AFTER you have titrated until all insufficiency symptoms are gone?

    yes, but hypothetically speaking, because I still have CFS and a dozen symptoms which include brain fog (severe before meals), susceptibility to anxiety, exercise intolerance, intolerance to noise, sleep problems, cold hands and feet, muscle tightness, edema, light sensitivity and dim vision.

    after starting your protocol around nine months ago, my constant hunger went away, my sleep improved somewhat - I seem to need a little less and wake feeling more refreshed. I have more energy and have become more active.

    but, whatever healing is happening, is moving slow enough that I don't feel that I can measure it or tie it directly to increases in methylation supplements.

    What kind of battle? What symptoms?

    It somewhat difficult to describe. When I increase folate, I have a lot of different symptoms which come and go during the day and night. Minost of the time I have more energy than usual, and lots of the time I feel tired and wired. I have headaches that come and go. I feel warmer than usual in the evening. At times I feel overwhelmed, that my body physically and mentally is not up to all the tasks that face me during the day. As if I were trying to carry on with all my normal activities while having a mild flu. The first night, after increasing, I have a little difficulty falling asleep and then usually wake up after 1 hour and 47 minutes exactly, when normally I might sleep for 3 1/2 to 5 hours. I always go back to sleep easily, but the next day I'm not feeling rested.

    All this fades away after three or four days.

    So trying to make my question more understandable: since my healing is happening slowly and I can't tie it directly to my increases in folate, am i right to keep going as long as the startup symptoms keep happening and fading away?
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  20. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    @Freddd, would you mind giving me your opinion of what is going on with me as posted earlier -

    was wondering if my blood tests tell me anything about what could be going on regarding me trying to get my Krebs Cycle going and also better methylation.

    Serum Ferritin 40 range (5-204) (don't take any iron supps)
    Serum Vitamin B12 1213 ng/l range(189-883 ng/l)
    Serum Folate >20 range 4.80-19.00 ug/L

    Since mid September this year I have been using on average 3000 mcg Transdermal B12 which I believe is cynacobalamin to very good effect energy-wise. It made a massive difference to my energy and ability to exercise very quickly. I now do between 5000 - 6000 steps everyday according to my Fitbit.

    have run into trouble whenever I have added any extra methylb12 in the form of aggression, hyperactive and insomnia plus migraines. I am ok if I add any ADNB12 in a liquid form (Metabolics) but I don't notice much effect in the liquid form of HydroxyB12 if I haven't taken any TD spray.

    I hadn't used any B12 for 3 days prior to my blood test.

    There is 112 mcg MB12 and 112 AdnB12 in my multi which I take daily as well as 250 mcg calcium folinate and 250 mcg methylfolate.

    I cannot tolerate any extra methylfolate because of the same symptoms mentioned above. The migraines I get make me feel suicidal if I take methylfolate, or MB12 they become permanent until days after stopping it.

    A Metabolic Analysis Profile this year showed I had a high need for folate and also a medium need for B12.

    Thanks for any help. Forgot to say I do eat vegetables each day and also a lot of peanuts which contain natural folate but I am going to try very hard to change to other nuts from today because I do think I might well be addicted to them as I also have a lot of snacks of just peanut butter which I now crave.

    Dr Amy Yasko says that in some people extra folate can turn into glutamate which is a neuro toxin and I am sure I am one of those people.

    Pam[/quote]
     

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