Active B12 Protocol Basics

[knackers323]

Hi @Freddd I have been doing methylation for a while now and as far as I know I have had no need for potassium or magnesium yet.

Does this mean I haven't yet got methylation going and need to increase dosages?

Anyone know the answer to this?

 

[Lee Ann]

Hello Freddd

I haven't been here in a while and wanted to know if you could give me an update on your protocol. I really don't have the brain power to go through all the post. thanks so much

 

[ahmo]

Lee Ann, here's a good FAQ format of Freddd's Protocol. http://howirecovered.com/active-b12-therapy-faq/

 

[whodathunkit]

Hello Freddd

I haven't been here in a while and wanted to know if you could give me an update on your protocol. I really don't have the brain power to go through all the post. thanks so much

LeeAnn, I'm new here and fresh on reading a lot of stuff. I can't speak knowledgeably on everything like titrating and what-have-you but I can speak to the currently recommended brands of Freddd's "Deadlock Quartet", some of which haven't been updated on Eric's otherwise excellent "How I recovered" site.

The most effective "deadlock 4" as of right now:

• Enzymatic Therapy methylcobalamin 1mg sublingual
• Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex (adenosylcobalamin) (splt up powder in capsules and use gradually since each cap is 10,000mcg of adb12 and 10mg might be too much all at once)
• Doctor's Best L-carnitine Fumarate (855 mg)
• Solgar Folate (as metafolin) (800mcg)

Hope that helps a little. Just figuring out the current brands recommended was confusing to me, since that info kind of got mixed in with all the other dialogue here.

 

[nomad]

Which B-complex are people using/recommending? I was using Jarrows B-Right but now concerned because it says it contains Folate (from folic acid and QUATREFOLIC (6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid glucosamine salt)

 

[ahmo]

I've been having great results with this Swansons B complex. Because of the relatively high amounts, by Freddd's reckoning, even in this low-dose B comp, I split the capsules, taking 1/2 twice daily. So I'm getting in the range of 12 mg Bs AM and midday. cheers, ahmo https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-activated-b-complex-high-bioavailability-60-veg-caps

 

[nomad]

I've been having great results with this Swansons B complex. Because of the relatively high amounts, by Freddd's reckoning, even in this low-dose B comp, I split the capsules, taking 1/2 twice daily. So I'm getting in the range of 12 mg Bs AM and midday. cheers, ahmo https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-activated-b-complex-high-bioavailability-60-veg-caps

thanks ahmo, that looks v good. Now, I need to find cheaper shipping option to the uk

 

[Sea]

LeeAnn, I'm new here and fresh on reading a lot of stuff. I can't speak knowledgeably on everything like titrating and what-have-you but I can speak to the currently recommended brands of Freddd's "Deadlock Quartet", some of which haven't been updated on Eric's otherwise excellent "How I recovered" site.

The most effective "deadlock 4" as of right now:

• Enzymatic Therapy methylcobalamin 1mg sublingual
• Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex (adenosylcobalamin) (splt up powder in capsules and use gradually since each cap is 10,000mcg of adb12 and 10mg might be too much all at once)
• Doctor's Best L-carnitine Fumarate (855 mg)
• Solgar Folate (as metafolin) (800mcg)

Hope that helps a little. Just figuring out the current brands recommended was confusing to me, since that info kind of got mixed in with all the other dialogue here.

Just an update to your update
Apparently the Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex has had a recent maunufacturing change and is now a tablet rather than a capsule. Some bottles of capsules may still be available but I would expect new orders to be mostly tablets now.

 

[Sea]

thanks ahmo, that looks v good. Now, I need to find cheaper shipping option to the uk

That one does look good and if you're buying multiples the shipping total seems to stay the same which makes it more reasonable.

The one I'm currently using is this one from iherb
http://www.iherb.com/Metabolic-Maintenance-B-Complex-Phosphorylated-100-Capsules/37558

 

[JPV]

Hello Freddd

I haven't been here in a while and wanted to know if you could give me an update on your protocol. I really don't have the brain power to go through all the post. thanks so much

I completely agree. This protocol is scattered over dozens of threads and hundreds of individual posts. It's a complete and utterly incomprehensible mess at this point.

I tried it a couple of years ago and it seemed to work but I ran into some issues. I was hoping to try it again, as it seems that Fred's made several important refinements that I would like to experiment with, but I seriously can't get a handle on it anymore. There are just too many scattered posts to track down, with discussions of the basic supplements, titration, potassium, folates, changing brands of B12, the "Deadlock Quartet" and various other details.

Eric's site does a fairly decent job of pulling it all together but it appears to be a bit out of date.

Seems to me that the best approach might be for Fred to edit the original post, with the updated information, or just start a new thread and keep it updated by editing a single master post, as opposed to having to search for updates that are spread out all over the entire forum.

Perhaps there should be a community effort to pull all the info together in one location.

Sorry Fred, I don't mean to be critical of your methods, and I appreciate all the time you've invested and everything that you are doing for the community, but the protocol has become virtually impossible to grasp at this point... and I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way.

 

[nomad]

Having a wiki would make it very quick and easy to update. I might be able to help in this respect, if I can muster enough energy

 

[whodathunkit]

Just an update to your update
Apparently the Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex has had a recent maunufacturing change and is now a tablet rather than a capsule. Some bottles of capsules may still be available but I would expect new orders to be mostly tablets now.

I saw that on here Tuesday somewhere! Thanks for pointing it out here, sea. I hope the new product is still as good as the capsules.

Interestingly, I just got my order from iherb like last week, and I got capsules. When I get over being sick it might be worth calling Anabol Naturals to find out if they've changed their plans for a complete switch. I like the capsules...the fact that they are a powder, plus they have no taste at all.

 

[aaadrien]

Hello,

I started taking methylcobalamin and methylfolate 20 days ago, and I will start L-carnitine Fumarate and adenosylcobalamin asap.

But I wonder if I'm not deficient in B6 despite the 25mg from the b-complex because I have most of the symptoms related to a deficiency.

Would it be wise to try to supplement with 200mg/day for a short period of time to see the results? Thanks

 

[mgd1972]

Hello Freddd

I haven't been here in a while and wanted to know if you could give me an update on your protocol. I really don't have the brain power to go through all the post. thanks so much

I second this motion! I have been jumping around reading various threads and getting thoroughly confused. I've been trying to follow the protocol for about 2 months, and then ran out of mb12 so after a week of stopping both b12s and cutting back on folate, I'm actually feeling slightly better than I had been (based on @Freddd's symptom list, I'm guessing was a combination of potassium and folate deficiency).

Now that my iherb shipment has arrived, with all of the recommended brands for the deadlock quartet, I plan to essentially start over tomorrow morning. I think I will start with 5 mg mb12 and 5 mg adb12. The main question I have is, how much Methylfolate should I start with? Does it matter whether you take it all at once or spread over the day? And by what amount each day do I titrate up if I feel I need more? Do I increase the folate in proportion to the b12s? I understand I should hold off on the l carnitine for now until I sort these 3 out.

Also, what is a reasonable amount of potassium (citrate) to take at one time, or per day? I seem to remember reading that you can't take too much, am I right? I know Freddd recommends potassium gluconate (?) but I have a few bottles of potassium citrate to get through and it doesn't seem to bother my stomach. I understand potassium should be taken apart from folate, but does it interfere with anything else? I think I read magnesium perhaps?

I'm out of b-complex so any recommendations on what I should look for in terms of minimums (and maximums) for each component? I understand no folic acid, but have seen a lot of confusing stuff about too much of this and that in terms of other b vitamins, which seem to have a lot of different names, adding to my confusion! How essential is the b complex at the beginning? Do I hold off restarting until I get a good b complex? What are some hidden forms of folic acid, by the way, to be avoided?

Many thanks for all your help!! I really have been reading a lot on the forum, although I know my questions are very basic, but so much of it I just don't understand. My brain is quite foggy most days. Thanks again.

 

[mgd1972]

Update to my previous post. And more questions!

How long should I wait between titrating each of the supplements if I don't notice a discernible effect? Is there a cumulative impact I should wait for? Do I titrate the b12 before the folate if I notice no negative symptoms?

Today was my first day restarting the protocol after a week "off" (ran out of b12). I took 5 mg each of adb12 and mb12, 1 hour after one metafolin 800 mcg, all in the morning, and then I took 500 mg potassium citrate both morning and evening, as well as magnesium and fish oil. Need to stock up on zinc and others tomorrow. I had been taking 10 mg of the b12s before, but was having some symptoms on group 2 and 3 so thought I should dial it back.

Felt good yesterday and this morning before restarting. Other than a mild headache (and a nose that seems runnier than usual), that started at about exactly 15 minutes in to dissolving the b12s, not noticing many other effects so far. Wondering if I should increase the folate to deal with the headache or would that be premature? Also not sure how long I stay at this b12 level once I sort out the folate. Is it best to spend a couple of weeks at each increment of the b12s before moving up?

 

[Lee Ann]

thanks everyone for the info

 

[Lee Ann]

Hi,
I've searched for the sublingual enzymatic therapy b12 and not having any luck. all I see is chewable. Can someone tell me where to buy this ? Thanks

 

[ahmo]

@Lee Ann, That's the right one. It reads chewable; we put it between gum and lip.
http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Ther...w=enzymatic therapies B12&rc=275&sr=null&ic=1

 

[whodathunkit]

This information is originally posted in the thread by @Freddd titled “Symptoms By Deadlock Quartet and other nutrients” http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/symptoms-by-deadlock-quartet-and-other-nutrients.27482/ on Jan. 9, 2014.

Again, @Freddd is the author of the information below; I’m just posting it in this sticky thread because IMO it’s important enough not to have it sink to deeper layers of the forum again.

1. SYMPTOMS LIST
   Version 2 - 01/09/2014
   
   In this post this is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.
   
   These symptoms responded almost entirely or entirely to, with basics 5 star MeCbl – methylcobalamin – Methylb12 - Mb12 - Mecobl . Many started improving in hours. Others took 9 months to correct.
   
   morning joint stiffness and pain
   paleness
   acid reflux
   nausea
   daily vomiting
   standing with eyes closed, lose balance
   hands feel gloved with loss of sensitivity - glove anesthesia
   feet feel socked by loss of sensitivity - stocking anesthesia
   glove and stocking anesthesia
   neuropathic bladder
   unable to release bladder, mild to severe
   unable to fully empty the bladder
   fecal incontinence - occasionally to frequently
   diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
   tinnitus - ringing in ears
   always feeling cold
   intolerance to loud sounds
   intolerance to multiple sounds
   sleep disorders
   non restorative sleep
   Night terrors
   Prolonged hypnagogic or hypnopompic states transitioning to/from sleep
   Sleep paralysis
   alteration of touch all over body, normal touch can be unpleasant and painful
   alterations and loss of taste
   taste hallucinations
   smell hallucinations
   sound hallucinations
   visual hallucinations
   alterations and loss of smell
   loss of smell and taste of strawberries specifically
   loss or alteration of smell and taste of potato chips specifically
   roughening and increased raspiness of voice, mb12 can smooth voice in mid word
   blurring of vision - can be sudden onset and sudden return
   Visual impairment can be seen; ophthalmological exam may show bilateral visual loss
   optic atrophy
   centrocecal scotomata
   hypersensitivity/intolerance to bright light
   intolerance to loud sounds
   intolerance to multiple sounds
   burning muscle pain
   diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
   tinnitus - ringing in ears
   sore burning tongue
   This is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.
   
   These symptoms responded strongly first to 5 star MeCbl and then Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.
   
   Bursitis
   stomach not emptying
   frequent vomiting
   acid regurgitation
   dyspepsia
   flatulence
   altered bowel habits
   abdominal pain
   loss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs, dairy, the only b12 containing foods
   nutrient specific anorexia
   intermittent constipation
   intermittent diarrhea
   irritable bowel syndrome
   sores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any part
   anorexia
   Bulimia
   Hypersensitivity to touch
   Hypersensitivity to odors
   Hypersensitivity to tastes
   Hypersensitivity to clothing texture
   Hypersensitivity to body malfunctions, symptoms
   Hypersensitivity to sounds and noises
   Hypersensitivity to light and visual stimuli
   Hypersensitivity to blood sugar changes
   Hypersensitivity to internal metabolic changes
   Hypersensitivity to temperature changes
   burning bladder (no UTI)
   painful urgency (no UTI)
   burning urethra (no UTI)
   Low blood serum level - below 550pg/ml, Japanese Standard
   elevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin)
   elevated LDH
   big fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it completely misinterpreting results of MCV
   platelet dysfunction, low count
   white cell changes, low count
   hyper segmented neutrophils
   headaches
   inflamed epithelial tissues - mucous membranes, skin, GI, vaginal, lungs
   inflamed endothelial tissues - lining of veins and arteries
   mucous becomes thick, jellied and sticky
   asthma
   chronic cough that mimics asthma but isn't
   chronic sinus congestion
   dermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rash
   frequent infected follicles or acne type lesions all over body
   chronic infections, many varieties possible
   Seborrheic dermatitis
   dandruff
   eczema
   dermatitis
   skin on face, hands, feet, turns brown or yellow if anemia occurs
   poor hair condition
   thin nails
   transverse ridges on nails, can happen as healing starts
   mouth sensitive to hot and cold
   sore burning tongue
   beef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normal
   sore mouth, no infection or apparent reason
   teeth sensitive to hot and cold
   canker sores
   
   
   with p5p added
   
   Elevated blood serum Hcy, borderline or higher
   
   
   These symptoms responded relatively partially first to 5 star MeCbl and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.
   
   
   splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
   impaired white blood cell response
   poor resistance to infections
   easy bruising
   pronounced anemia
   macrocytic anemia
   megablastic anemia
   pernicious anemia
   decreased blood clotting
   MCV > 93 first warning,
   MCV > 97 alert
   MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
   MCV > 105 urgently needs treatment, severe problem
   
   Plus Vitamin E
   Child with neural tube defects
   
   mother of child with neural tube defect
   
   These symptoms responded not at all first to 5 star and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.
   
   
   lack of dreaming
   MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
   macrocytic anemia
   metallic taste in mouth
   Widespread body & muscle pain responding to NSAID
   Joint pain responding to NSAIDS
   splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
   
   splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
   impaired white blood cell response
   poor resistance to infections
   easy bruising
   pronounced anemia
   macrocytic anemia
   megablastic anemia
   pernicious anemia
   decreased blood clotting
   MCV > 93 first warning,
   MCV > 97 alert
   MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
   MCV > 105 urgently needs treatment, severe problem
   Plus Vitamin E, Child with neural tube defects
   mother of child with neural tube defect
   
   These symptoms responded not at all first to 5 star and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.
   
   
   lack of dreaming MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis, macrocytic anemia
   metallic taste in mouth
   Widespread body & muscle pain responding to NSAID
   Joint pain responding to NSAIDS
   splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
   Sexual related symptoms, both men and women – These responded with the most response to lesser responses in order to MeCbl, Metafolin (l-methylfolate), AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
   
   reduced libido - loss of sexual desire
   loss of orgasmic intensity
   unsatisfying orgasms
   inability to orgasm
   loss and/or change of genital sensations
   burning genital skin sensation
   unable to feel aroused
   numb genital skin
   low sex hormonesMEN
   In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
   low testosterone men
   In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
   erectile dysfunction men
   In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
   low sperm count
   poor sperm motility
   Poor sperm quality
   no sperm
   WOMEN
   In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
   low testosterone
   low estrogen
   In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
   post partum depression
   post partum psychosis
   In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
   Frequent miscarriage
   In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin
   False positive pap smears, defective cells
   menstrual symptoms
   
   
   Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients:
   Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.
   
   1.Initially – MeCbl
   2.+5 months 400mcg SAM-E
   3.+ 4 months AdoCbl
   4.+ 3 months titrate +50mg zinc
   5.+4 years 400mcg Metafolin
   6.+1 year LCF
   7.+ 1 month TMG 1000mg/day
   8.30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,
   9.+0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg
   10.+ 4 years remove TMG
   11.+6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg
   12.Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.
   
   
   These symptoms are what responded very well to CNS penetrating doses of MeCbl either as 50mg sublingual single 4-5 hour dose or 4 x 7.5mg or 3 x 10mg or for some 2 x 15mg subcutaneous MeCbl injections. Metafolin in some way enhances retention of AdoCbl and MeCbl with excretion visibly decreased. A sublingual dose of 1-2 tablets each hour added for 12 hours appears to generate substantial CNS penetration as well.
   
   
   CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils
   
   
   Elevated CSF Hcy
   Low CSF cobalamin
   limbs feel stiff
   Drowsy
   
   CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl
   dimmed vision - usually not noticed going into it because change can be very slow or present for life
   Clumsiness
   
   CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl - Metafolin
   
   Slow to adapt to night vision
   
   CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – LCF
   
   
   Difficulty in word finding
   
   
   CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils
   
   
   Brainstem or cerebellar signs or even reversible (with mb12) coma may occur
   demyelinated areas on nerves
   Subacute combined degeneration
   axonal degeneration of spinal cord
   unsteadiness of gait
   ataxic gait, particularly in dark
   positive Romberg
   positive Lhermittes
   Loss of motor control over some or all of toes
   Loss of motor control over part or all of feet
   Loss of sense of joint position
   sudden electric like shocks/pains shooting down arms, body, legs shooting down from neck movement
   sudden "ice pick" pain
   decreased reflexes
   brisk reflexes
   Foot Drop
   tripping over toes
   injuring toes catching top of toes on floor
   general feeling of weakness
   Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/04/13 Version 1.1
   Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.
   1.Initially – MeCbl
   2.+5 months 400mcg SAM-E
   3.+ 4 months AdoCbl
   4.+ 3 months titrate +50mg zinc
   5.+4 years 400mcg Metafolin
   6.+1 year LCF
   7.+ 1 month TMG 1000mg/day
   8.30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,
   9.+0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg
   10.+ 4 years remove TMG
   11.+6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg
   12.Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.
   
   These symptoms are what responded very well to L-carnitine fumarate AND AdoCbl for the first two items
   
   L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – Metafolin - MeCbl
   
   
   weight loss involuntary
   muscular atrophy
   exercise does not build muscle
   
   
   L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin – AdoCbl - MeCbl
   
   weight gain, watery fat
   edema
   Congestive heart failure
   
   L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – MeCbl – Metafolin
   
   
   mild to extremely severe fatigue
   continuous extremely severe fatigue
   easy fatigability
   severe abnormal muscle fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to death
   weakness
   muscle pain especially around attachment points to bones
   Eighteen severely tender muscle spots of FMS
   
   
   AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate
   
   
   exercise debilitates for up to a week, making things much worse
   accumulating muscle pains following exertion
   sore muscles throughout body
   lack of muscle recovery after exercise
   High urinary MMA
   
   
   AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin
   
   Elevated CSF MMA
   Elevated uMMA
   Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/05/13, Version 1.1
   Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.
   1.Initially – MeCbl
   2.+5 months 400mcg SAM-E
   3.+ 4 months AdoCbl
   4.+ 3 months titrate +50mg zinc
   5.+4 years 400mcg Metafolin
   6.+1 year LCF
   7.+ 1 month TMG 1000mg/day
   8.30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,
   9.+0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg
   10.+ 4 years remove TMG
   11.+6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg
   12.Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.
   
   
   
   
   MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin
   
   shortness of breath
   oxygen hunger
   heart palpitations
   edema
   congestive heart failure
   
   MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate
   
   extremely sore neck muscles reversing normal curvature of neck
   painfully tight, stiff muscles, especially legs and arms
   frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body
   weak pulse
   
   
   MeCbl - AdoCbl
   
   Confusion
   Disorientation
   Difficulty in word finding
   
   MeCbl - AdoCbl - Metafolin
   
   irritable
   depression
   SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder
   mental slowing
   personality changes
   chronic malaise
   poor concentration
   moodiness
   tiredness
   mood swings
   memory loss
   listlessness
   impaired connection to others
   mentally fuzzy, foggy, brainfog
   dizziness - even unable to walk
   Vertigo
   
   MeCbl – Metafolin – AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate
   
   psychosis, including many of the most florid psychoses seen in literature, megaloblastic madness
   Alzheimer's
   delirium
   dementia
   paranoia
   delusions
   hallucinations - multisensory
   anxiety or tension
   nervousness
   mania
   Widespread pain throughout body
   
   
   A caution, those with anxiety and panic symptoms may respond with extreme moods of increased fear, anxiety, panic, anger rage, homicidal rage and profound depression, usually in repeatable sequences following LCF or ALCAR even at levels of 1mg oral. A micro titration of carnitine would be cautious. While most find the moods intolerable, certain persons have been able to tolerate these (both past) and current, to find they can fade after some months of consumption. A few people may find similar, maybe somewhat lesser, response to MeCbl or more likely AdoCbl. As these are less controllable than LCF which can be micro dosed, they should be considered first.

Last edited: Jan 9, 2014

 

[whodathunkit]

This is the second post by @Freddd in the thread titled “Symptoms By Deadlock Quartet and other nutrients” http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/symptoms-by-deadlock-quartet-and-other-nutrients.27482/

Again, @Freddd is the author of the information below; I’m just posting it in this sticky thread because IMO it’s important enough not to have it sink to deeper layers of the forum again.

THE COMPLETE METHYLATION REVIEW

This is new overview towards which I was working with Rich before his sudden death. There were holes in each of our hypotheses, which we both pointed out to each other and which often came down to “insufficient data” and insufficient understanding. I reviewed some of the raw data from Rich’s study, and reanalyzed it, and we discussed the holes therein, how it fit the symptoms questionnaire patterns and the questions thereby raised. I think we both succeeded in keeping each other more on target. I miss our correspondence and discussion. He knew far more biochemistry and such than I do and was much better at finding explanations for things that repeatedly occurred. I’m a data analyst, not a biochemist. On saying that, I must also point out that Rich was not a systems analyst. He did not adapt well to the changing ideas and like many researchers was defending prior works and ideas.


UNRAVALING THE MYSTERY

Sometimes major scientific misunderstanding or non-understanding acquires great standing and unwarranted belief creating a mystery.

The System is Corrupt

“Gentlemen, get this straight. The police are not here to cause disorder. The police are here to preserve disorder.” Mayor Daley, 1968 Democratic convention police riot.

Deficiency vs. Insufficiency - B12 and folate deficiencies manifest in very dose proportionate ways. There are no sharp cutoffs until one gets to 100% needed dose or zero. In the list of the folate deficiency symptoms under many names, some people might have mood effects before they have IBS, some might never have angular cheilitis, but what does happen is that there are several different groupings of symptoms that tend to appear together. There are approximately 4 or 5 layers of symptoms that appear to come on relatively independent of each other in a progressive manner and dependent upon relative deficiencies of the Deadlock Quartet and 7 or so other critical cofactors and even basic essentials.


So in an extreme folate deficiency body wide inflammation would be present with lots of joint and muscle pain, MCS. Allergies and asthma come in somewhere but it can vary. The greater the insufficiency the more symptoms and the worse the symptoms are. While any of the insufficiencies can cause the same symptoms they cause them in different groupings at different rates and extents. It is necessary to remove all the b12 insufficiency symptoms to expose all the remaining methylfolate insufficiency symptoms. That is how it happens in the titrations. Endless words and time has been wasted disagreeing as to “absolute deficiency” vs “functional deficiency” and what it means, if anything, for therapy. The idea of an absolute deficiency in either of these is ridiculous. MeCbl and AdoCbl have dose proportionality in the 1mcg to 10,000 mcg range or more and L-methylfolate has dose proportionate characteristics from 1 to 32,000mcg at least. As the level of folate/b12 function approaches zero the last symptom in the progression is paralysis of the diaphragm or heart failure followed shortly by death. Everything short of that is a summation of successive insufficiencies starting with 1 symptom and increasing up to several hundred symptoms and signs generally before diaphragm paralysis or heart failure and death.

The old idea of “absolute” deficiency was based on low enough levels of b12 to cause Pernicious Anemia. Then other lesser symptoms then were not really deficiency but rather “functional deficiency” caused by some other lack. This was based on CyCbl or HyCbl only partially helping some dozens out of the hundreds of symptoms the active b12s and folate affect. So the 0.01-1% effectiveness of HyCbl and CyCbl, and the poor or even negative effectiveness of folic acid, has skewed the understanding of cobalamins and folate. That whole idea fought against the natural effectiveness of the active AdoCbl, MeCbl and L-methylfolate as some kind of aberration of “forced” healing as opposed to “normal” healing of HyCbl which turns out to be the starvation survival mode.


Instead it now looks like the “fallback starvation” mode of limited healing of HyCbl and CyCbl versus normal fully effective healing of the active natural b12s somehow has become sacrosanct through 60 years of skewed research. The excellent first rate healing of real b12 became the aberration as the abnormal limited starvation mode became “normal”. This is exactly what has happened with blood test results. The normal of red cell MCV < 93 has been displaced as MCV < 100 or even MCV < 102 has become “normal” as acceptance of starvation mode as normal spreads and becomes “normal”. Many other blood measures are also affected and in those the abnormal has become the new “normal”. At the point that deficiency symptoms have taken over test results to the point of making the abnormal test results become normal, the system has been corrupted. The test results ranges as now defined are set to maintain deficiency and illness as the norm. The tests now serve to maintain disorders.


Many other tests, in fact all the ones that might be affected by methylation and ATP availability, are biased now to support a set of chronic deficiency states that have become the norm by invading our food supply. Our biochemistry evolved over hundreds of millions of years. Somewhere very early on in our evolution bacteria started producing MeCbl and/or AdoCbl. Somewhere along the way they became the normal cobalamins for all animal life on this planet, just as hemoglobin (iron based) became the oxygen carrier system in animals. Nature is a tough master. Anything that can’t make it dies. Given 300,000,000 years we could have evolved to use HyCbl or CyCbl if that is what the whole lineage of micro and macro animals had evolved with it. It would have had full effectiveness if we had so evolved. However we didn’t evolve that way. We didn’t have billions and billions die from inability to use it effectively. We didn’t pay that price. However, we are now paying that price, completely unnecessarily at that. We have a significant portion of our population with untreatable chronic diseases.


WHY DON’T HyCbl AND CyCbl WORK WELL?

So when asked why don’t HyCbl and CyCbl work well it’s because they are not what our biochemistry evolved to use over hundreds of millions of years starting before mammals even existed. We did evolve a starvation mode of survival in which some of the previously used cobalamins that had become unusable throwaway forms after MeCbl breaks down or detoxifies cyanide and reclaim them. As with other work around methods it isn’t very effective and it doesn’t provide enough active cobalamins to do any major healing but it is enough to stay alive during a famine or a bad winter. It does require the presence of some reduced amount of each MeCbl, AdoCbl, l-methylfolate and l-carnitine fumarate to provide the needed biochemistry to fuel the conversion, allowing the body to tread water for a while.


WHY ARE THERE ALL THESE COBALAMIN A, B, C, D, ETC DISEASES?

These are the cataloging of all the ways our bodies didn’t evolve to use HyCbl and CyCbl. These gene variations never got culled out of us by disease and death in a natural environment. Those that had these enzymes might survive starvation better as they can use some trace cobalamins, but not enough difference to cull out those that don’t. General starvation isn’t selective enough. So many people don’t have the enzymes needed to transform trace cobalamins that the body creates from MeCbl for special purposes or post use or breakdown products, to recycle them for a workaround for starvation for a while. Some have even suggested that the lethargy of metabolic shutdown (seasonal CFS) achieved by AdoCbl/MeCbl starvation allowed early humans to survive long winters of semi starvation with very low food requirements substituting for true hibernation or winter sleep.


WHY DOESN’T FOLIC ACID WORK WELL FOR EVERYBODY?

When the same questions are asked about folic acid the same answers arise. If it were food it would be “stale” and spoiled. It’s too oxidized. It is to l-methylfolate as flaxseed oil is to linoleum. We never evolved to use that. It’s no wonder that nobody can convert enough folic acid to fulfill all folate requirements. It’s no wonder 20% can’t convert it at all, 30% can convert limited amounts and about 50% can convert up to about 800mcg daily of folic acid which is not as much as the body needs to heal. We never evolved to use it. 60 years of usage since it’s invention hasn’t killed the billions yet that would allow evolution to adapt to folic acid.


WHY DO SOME PEOPLE FIND FOLINIC ACID UNUSABLE?

Folinic acid is another matter. It is the natural folate of most vegetables. It is a handicap not to be able to use vegetable folate but lots of people can survive on the animal form of folate. It is a handicap to not be able to digest milk as an adult. Adults can do fine without milk and cheese. It is a handicap not to be able to utilize gluten, a protein in some grains. There are lots of alternatives to gluten. Milk as an adult food is a recent arrival on the scene. Grain containing gluten as a dietary mainstay is a more recent arrival on the scene. 10,000 years more or less hasn’t been long enough to for humans to fully genetically adjust. However, some populations have evolved to be able to drink milk as adult. Most people in the world can’t digest milk as adults. I “should” be able to digest milk as “should” my ex-wife. We both come from northern long term dairy drinking white folks. Neither of us can do so. Chances are our children won’t be able to either. I miss it but I sure don’t miss the digestive problems. Fortunately gluten gives me no problem at all. On these variables like adult milk and gluten, 10,000 or 20,000 years or whatever isn’t enough for a population to fully adapt. For vegetable folate, even 400,000,000 years hasn’t been long enough for 100%. However, I can use the natural animal form of folate, L-methylfolate or I wouldn’t be alive to write this as can 100% of people. Vegetable folate is an “also” or a biological workaround. However it is amply effective for the majority of persons. Some tribes evolved on high meat diets for a long time and some did not.



In a normal software system after too many generations of changes it becomes unmaintainable and needs to be reconceptualized and redesigned. A college I went to in the 1960s had brand new physics and chemistry buildings both with standard air pressure, humidity and temperature. The only thing not standardized was local gravity. That standardization has NEVER been done in nutrition with all the active natural forms of the vitamins. What we have standardized on are CyCbl , HyCbl and folic acid. We are reaping the results, with all these rapidly increasing neurological, metabolic, neuro-psyc diseases and generally poor health with lots of symptoms and no treatments that actually work. Even worse is that these symptoms and diseases have become the “norm” as these fake vitamins are in many foods. I eat almost no white flour products, no fortified products, no corn syrup, minimal trans-fats and almost no processed foods. I avoid folic acid and CyCbl like the poisons they are to me. Instead I take the natural forms in sufficient quantity to allow my damaged body to function.


Rich’s number one objection to what I first presented was that IT, whatever IT is, was widely happening and could not because of genetic inability to use HyCbl. He placed a lot of emphasis on the vanishingly small percentage of people that have the lettered cobalamin “diseases”; Cobalamin A, Cobalamin B, Cobalamin C and other such diseases. He was partially correct. The lettered diseases are terribly rare and were only invented (recognized) because of CyCbl and HyCbl. In the absence of these two oxidized inactive cobalamins none of these genetic conditions (“diseases”) would have been found. They were found because infants being given formula with CyCbl had failure to thrive. In fact they were starving to death rapidly because of a lack of the MeCbl, AdoCbl and l-methylfolate found in milk (at first) and basically all foods of animal origin that instead had soy milk with corn syrup and inactive oxidized artificial folic acid and CyCbl or HyCbl vitamins instead of the animal based forms.



Carmen Wheatley’s “Giant Gorilla … Adenosylcobalamin …” (free download, don’t miss it http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carmen_Wheatley/publications/ ) article couldn’t have said it more plainly. It looks like the NATURAL effectiveness of the natural active forms of cobalamin is radically greater than HyCbl and CyCbl (I’ve said 100 to 10,000 times more effective for 9 years) and that the body being able to use HyCbl at all is a starvation workaround. It is the ALTERNATE pathway when starving to death that will barely maintain life but not health. Cobalamin A, B, C, D, E, etc are highly technical deficiency diseases lacking enzymes to convert one form to another, that only become visible when inactive cobalamins are substituted for active ones during man-made starvation of active cobalamins. There is a deadlock here too, as ATP is absolutely needed to power those enzymes. To make the ATP one MUST have some working AdoCbl and l-carnitine fumarate in the mitochondria already and some methylation capacity (MeCbl and l-methylfolate). In other words, those lettered diseases are also the result of the laboratory mistake that said that CyCbl was the real thing. In a “natural” environment they almost don’t exist. The only ones that do exist naturally relate to interconversion between AdoCbl and MeCbl and eating a mix makes that unimportant. Further they, the inactive forms, can only be converted to active forms if one has sufficient of the active forms to make the enzymes and energy for the conversion in the first place.



We never went through the culling that would evolve us to use folic acid, CyCbl and HyCbl because they don’t exist in natural foods. All we ever achieved is a workaround pathway that salvages a minimum amount of usable cobalamins from the otherwise unusable cobalamins when the supply of fresh cobalamins runs out. We are being culled right now. MS, ME, FMS, CFS, Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s, Autism, Supra nuclear Palsy, IBS, Neuropathies, Subacute combined degeneration, reproduction failure, congestive heart failure, endothelial inflammation and failure, early death from a multitude of causes, all part of these manmade mystery diseases. They are the result of systematic starvation of the body of three absolutely needed vitamins with <1% effective oxidized (spoiled) pseudo vitamins substituted. This is the 21st century equivalent of Scurvy, Pellagra and Beriberi all rolled into one. Food when it is oxidized becomes spoiled, stale and rancid, not supporting health. Folic acid, CyCbl and HyCbl are all forms of concentrated food (vitamins ) that are oxidized, spoiled, rancid, stale and not supporting of health. Would you eat linoleum instead of fresh salad oil? It’s just oxidized edible oil. Sure, it keeps better but is it nutritionally the same? How about a nice meal of tanned leather instead whole roast pig? The leather keeps lots longer. But it isn’t the same when it comes to eating.



Our children are suffering tremendously with these manmade diseases. I grew up in the 50s and 60s. I NEVER even heard of or saw a single child with ADD or AHDH or any of these many neurological disorders of children. Yes, we had Osgood Schlatter’s disease and Mono, mumps, scarlet fever, measles and chicken pox, anorexia was very rare and nobody at all had CFS or FMS. I see it all the time in pre-teens and teens now. There were NO children “stimming”. Now it can’t be avoided. You just didn’t see it then. I was in a lot of homes and saw all the children. Autism was extremely rare, not rarely recognized. Parkinson’s was rare. MS was rare. All these neurological diseases were rare. And don’t tell me it was because people died so much younger. Life expectancy at 65 in 1937 before antibiotics was just 3-4 years less than it is today, with lots of smokers at that time. It was life expectancy before age 5 or 10 that changed mostly. Now it is possible that all of us sick folks were the ones that would have died without childhood antibiotics and so we are being culled later. However, it appears more likely that the damage to the immune system that made us sick and needing antibiotics originally was caused by paradoxical folate deficiency to folinic acid which now expanded to include folic acid and CyCbl and/or HyCbl in ALL formulas and fortified cereals etc.



So, chasing down all these cobalamin “diseases” is fruitless, a waste of money and effort since they don’t exist or don’t matter if everybody gets the real vitamins. Rich convinced me that I was barking up the wrong tree theoretically (not pragmatically, 2 different things as I was getting excellent results, I GOT WELL). If these genetic variations are too rare to be making so many people so sick then what is doing so? That answer is complicated.



Rich was correct in calling what he was looking at “partial methylation block”. It is a partial block. Rich was looking at only the lowest level of the blockage, the folate-Cbl level. This is the most visible level of DNA-RNA transactions using MeCbl and l-methylfolate. The body, using the active transport system of transcobalamin has its own triage methods for supplying MeCbl and AdoCbl to various tissues. It can transport a few 10s of mcg per day to various tissues which is far more than the typical 5mcg or so eaten and absorbed. Rich said that using huge doses of MeCbl was “forcing” activity. Along the way he did say that he didn’t think that 1mg of oral or sublingual MeCbl was huge or forcing. However since MeCbl has a rather dose proportionate response range but was unmapped, it was some vague amount like 10mg injections. There were all sorts of wild ideas of how the active b12 protocol “ought” to be applied. So now, Wheatley has identified the “radically” more effective AdoCbl as the natural normal path and the HyCbl path as a barely working workaround for starvation in the control of inflammation.

end part 1