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Symptoms By Deadlock Quartet and other nutrients

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    SYMPTOMS LIST
    Version 2 - 01/09/2014


    In this post this is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in
    In this post this is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.

    These symptoms responded almost entirely or entirely to, with basics 5 star MeCbl – methylcobalamin – Methylb12 - Mb12 - Mecobl . Many started improving in hours. Others took 9 months to correct.

    morning joint stiffness and pain
    paleness
    acid reflux
    nausea
    daily vomiting
    standing with eyes closed, lose balance
    hands feel gloved with loss of sensitivity - glove anesthesia
    feet feel socked by loss of sensitivity - stocking anesthesia
    glove and stocking anesthesia
    neuropathic bladder
    unable to release bladder, mild to severe
    unable to fully empty the bladder
    fecal incontinence - occasionally to frequently
    diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
    tinnitus - ringing in ears
    always feeling cold
    intolerance to loud sounds
    intolerance to multiple sounds
    sleep disorders
    non restorative sleep
    Night terrors
    Prolonged hypnagogic or hypnopompic states transitioning to/from sleep
    Sleep paralysis
    alteration of touch all over body, normal touch can be unpleasant and painful
    alterations and loss of taste
    taste hallucinations
    smell hallucinations
    sound hallucinations
    visual hallucinations
    alterations and loss of smell
    loss of smell and taste of strawberries specifically
    loss or alteration of smell and taste of potato chips specifically
    roughening and increased raspiness of voice, mb12 can smooth voice in mid word
    blurring of vision - can be sudden onset and sudden return
    Visual impairment can be seen; ophthalmological exam may show bilateral visual loss
    optic atrophy
    centrocecal scotomata
    hypersensitivity/intolerance to bright light
    intolerance to loud sounds
    intolerance to multiple sounds
    burning muscle pain
    diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
    tinnitus - ringing in ears
    sore burning tongue
    This is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.

    These symptoms responded strongly first to 5 star MeCbl and then Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.

    Bursitis
    stomach not emptying
    frequent vomiting
    acid regurgitation
    dyspepsia
    flatulence
    altered bowel habits
    abdominal pain
    loss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs, dairy, the only b12 containing foods
    nutrient specific anorexia
    intermittent constipation
    intermittent diarrhea
    irritable bowel syndrome
    sores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any part
    anorexia
    Bulimia
    Hypersensitivity to touch
    Hypersensitivity to odors
    Hypersensitivity to tastes
    Hypersensitivity to clothing texture
    Hypersensitivity to body malfunctions, symptoms
    Hypersensitivity to sounds and noises
    Hypersensitivity to light and visual stimuli
    Hypersensitivity to blood sugar changes
    Hypersensitivity to internal metabolic changes
    Hypersensitivity to temperature changes
    burning bladder (no UTI)
    painful urgency (no UTI)
    burning urethra (no UTI)
    Low blood serum level - below 550pg/ml, Japanese Standard
    elevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin)
    elevated LDH
    big fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it completely misinterpreting results of MCV
    platelet dysfunction, low count
    white cell changes, low count
    hyper segmented neutrophils
    headaches
    inflamed epithelial tissues - mucous membranes, skin, GI, vaginal, lungs
    inflamed endothelial tissues - lining of veins and arteries
    mucous becomes thick, jellied and sticky
    asthma
    chronic cough that mimics asthma but isn't
    chronic sinus congestion
    dermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rash
    frequent infected follicles or acne type lesions all over body
    chronic infections, many varieties possible
    Seborrheic dermatitis
    dandruff
    eczema
    dermatitis
    skin on face, hands, feet, turns brown or yellow if anemia occurs
    poor hair condition
    thin nails
    transverse ridges on nails, can happen as healing starts
    mouth sensitive to hot and cold
    sore burning tongue
    beef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normal
    sore mouth, no infection or apparent reason
    teeth sensitive to hot and cold
    canker sores


    with p5p added

    Elevated blood serum Hcy, borderline or higher


    These symptoms responded relatively partially first to 5 star MeCbl and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.


    splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
    impaired white blood cell response
    poor resistance to infections
    easy bruising
    pronounced anemia
    macrocytic anemia
    megablastic anemia
    pernicious anemia
    decreased blood clotting
    MCV > 93 first warning,
    MCV > 97 alert
    MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
    MCV > 105 urgently needs treatment, severe problem

    Plus Vitamin E
    Child with neural tube defects

    mother of child with neural tube defect

    These symptoms responded not at all first to 5 star and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.


    lack of dreaming
    MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
    macrocytic anemia
    metallic taste in mouth
    Widespread body & muscle pain responding to NSAID
    Joint pain responding to NSAIDS
    splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis

    splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
    impaired white blood cell response
    poor resistance to infections
    easy bruising
    pronounced anemia
    macrocytic anemia
    megablastic anemia
    pernicious anemia
    decreased blood clotting
    MCV > 93 first warning,
    MCV > 97 alert
    MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
    MCV > 105 urgently needs treatment, severe problem
    Plus Vitamin E, Child with neural tube defects
    mother of child with neural tube defect

    These symptoms responded not at all first to 5 star and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.


    lack of dreaming MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis, macrocytic anemia
    metallic taste in mouth
    Widespread body & muscle pain responding to NSAID
    Joint pain responding to NSAIDS
    splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
    Sexual related symptoms, both men and women – These responded with the most response to lesser responses in order to MeCbl, Metafolin (l-methylfolate), AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate

    reduced libido - loss of sexual desire
    loss of orgasmic intensity
    unsatisfying orgasms
    inability to orgasm
    loss and/or change of genital sensations
    burning genital skin sensation
    unable to feel aroused
    numb genital skin
    low sex hormones

    MEN
    In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl

    low testosterone men
    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
    erectile dysfunction men
    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
    low sperm count
    poor sperm motility
    Poor sperm quality
    no sperm


    WOMEN
    In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl

    low testosterone
    low estrogen
    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
    post partum depression
    post partum psychosis
    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
    Frequent miscarriage
    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin
    False positive pap smears, defective cells
    menstrual symptoms


    Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients:
    Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

    1.Initially – MeCbl
    2.+5 months 400mcg SAM-E
    3.+ 4 months AdoCbl
    4.+ 3 months titrate +50mg zinc
    5.+4 years 400mcg Metafolin
    6.+1 year LCF
    7.+ 1 month TMG 1000mg/day
    8.30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,
    9.+0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg
    10.+ 4 years remove TMG
    11.+6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg
    12.Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.


    These symptoms are what responded very well to CNS penetrating doses of MeCbl either as 50mg sublingual single 4-5 hour dose or 4 x 7.5mg or 3 x 10mg or for some 2 x 15mg subcutaneous MeCbl injections. Metafolin in some way enhances retention of AdoCbl and MeCbl with excretion visibly decreased. A sublingual dose of 1-2 tablets each hour added for 12 hours appears to generate substantial CNS penetration as well.


    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils


    Elevated CSF Hcy
    Low CSF cobalamin
    limbs feel stiff
    Drowsy

    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl
    dimmed vision - usually not noticed going into it because change can be very slow or present for life
    Clumsiness

    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl - Metafolin

    Slow to adapt to night vision

    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – LCF


    Difficulty in word finding


    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils


    Brainstem or cerebellar signs or even reversible (with mb12) coma may occur
    demyelinated areas on nerves
    Subacute combined degeneration
    axonal degeneration of spinal cord
    unsteadiness of gait
    ataxic gait, particularly in dark
    positive Romberg
    positive Lhermittes
    Loss of motor control over some or all of toes
    Loss of motor control over part or all of feet
    Loss of sense of joint position
    sudden electric like shocks/pains shooting down arms, body, legs shooting down from neck movement
    sudden "ice pick" pain
    decreased reflexes
    brisk reflexes
    Foot Drop
    tripping over toes
    injuring toes catching top of toes on floor
    general feeling of weakness
    Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/04/13 Version 1.1
    Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.
    1.Initially – MeCbl
    2.+5 months 400mcg SAM-E
    3.+ 4 months AdoCbl
    4.+ 3 months titrate +50mg zinc
    5.+4 years 400mcg Metafolin
    6.+1 year LCF
    7.+ 1 month TMG 1000mg/day
    8.30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,
    9.+0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg
    10.+ 4 years remove TMG
    11.+6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg
    12.Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.

    These symptoms are what responded very well to L-carnitine fumarate AND AdoCbl for the first two items

    L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – Metafolin - MeCbl


    weight loss involuntary
    muscular atrophy
    exercise does not build muscle


    L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin – AdoCbl - MeCbl

    weight gain, watery fat
    edema
    Congestive heart failure

    L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – MeCbl – Metafolin


    mild to extremely severe fatigue
    continuous extremely severe fatigue
    easy fatigability
    severe abnormal muscle fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to death
    weakness
    muscle pain especially around attachment points to bones
    Eighteen severely tender muscle spots of FMS


    AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate


    exercise debilitates for up to a week, making things much worse
    accumulating muscle pains following exertion
    sore muscles throughout body
    lack of muscle recovery after exercise
    High urinary MMA


    AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

    Elevated CSF MMA
    Elevated uMMA
    Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/05/13, Version 1.1
    Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.
    1.Initially – MeCbl
    2.+5 months 400mcg SAM-E
    3.+ 4 months AdoCbl
    4.+ 3 months titrate +50mg zinc
    5.+4 years 400mcg Metafolin
    6.+1 year LCF
    7.+ 1 month TMG 1000mg/day
    8.30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,
    9.+0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg
    10.+ 4 years remove TMG
    11.+6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg
    12.Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.




    MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

    shortness of breath
    oxygen hunger
    heart palpitations
    edema
    congestive heart failure

    MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

    extremely sore neck muscles reversing normal curvature of neck
    painfully tight, stiff muscles, especially legs and arms
    frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body
    weak pulse


    MeCbl - AdoCbl

    Confusion
    Disorientation
    Difficulty in word finding

    MeCbl - AdoCbl - Metafolin

    irritable
    depression
    SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder
    mental slowing
    personality changes
    chronic malaise
    poor concentration
    moodiness
    tiredness
    mood swings
    memory loss
    listlessness
    impaired connection to others
    mentally fuzzy, foggy, brainfog
    dizziness - even unable to walk
    Vertigo

    MeCbl – Metafolin – AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

    psychosis, including many of the most florid psychoses seen in literature, megaloblastic madness
    Alzheimer's
    delirium
    dementia
    paranoia
    delusions
    hallucinations - multisensory
    anxiety or tension
    nervousness
    mania
    Widespread pain throughout body


    A caution, those with anxiety and panic symptoms may respond with extreme moods of increased fear, anxiety, panic, anger rage, homicidal rage and profound depression, usually in repeatable sequences following LCF or ALCAR even at levels of 1mg oral. A micro titration of carnitine would be cautious. While most find the moods intolerable, certain persons have been able to tolerate these (both past) and current, to find they can fade after some months of consumption. A few people may find similar, maybe somewhat lesser, response to MeCbl or more likely AdoCbl. As these are less controllable than LCF which can be micro dosed, they should be considered first.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
    whodathunkit likes this.
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    THE COMPLETE METHYLATION REVIEW

    This is new overview towards which I was working with Rich before his sudden death. There were holes in each of our hypotheses, which we both pointed out to each other and which often came down to “insufficient data” and insufficient understanding. I reviewed some of the raw data from Rich’s study, and reanalyzed it, and we discussed the holes therein, how it fit the symptoms questionnaire patterns and the questions thereby raised. I think we both succeeded in keeping each other more on target. I miss our correspondence and discussion. He knew far more biochemistry and such than I do and was much better at finding explanations for things that repeatedly occurred. I’m a data analyst, not a biochemist. On saying that, I must also point out that Rich was not a systems analyst. He did not adapt well to the changing ideas and like many researchers was defending prior works and ideas.


    UNRAVALING THE MYSTERY

    Sometimes major scientific misunderstanding or non-understanding acquires great standing and unwarranted belief creating a mystery.

    The System is Corrupt

    “Gentlemen, get this straight. The police are not here to cause disorder. The police are here to preserve disorder.” Mayor Daley, 1968 Democratic convention police riot.

    Deficiency vs. Insufficiency - B12 and folate deficiencies manifest in very dose proportionate ways. There are no sharp cutoffs until one gets to 100% needed dose or zero. In the list of the folate deficiency symptoms under many names, some people might have mood effects before they have IBS, some might never have angular cheilitis, but what does happen is that there are several different groupings of symptoms that tend to appear together. There are approximately 4 or 5 layers of symptoms that appear to come on relatively independent of each other in a progressive manner and dependent upon relative deficiencies of the Deadlock Quartet and 7 or so other critical cofactors and even basic essentials.


    So in an extreme folate deficiency body wide inflammation would be present with lots of joint and muscle pain, MCS. Allergies and asthma come in somewhere but it can vary. The greater the insufficiency the more symptoms and the worse the symptoms are. While any of the insufficiencies can cause the same symptoms they cause them in different groupings at different rates and extents. It is necessary to remove all the b12 insufficiency symptoms to expose all the remaining methylfolate insufficiency symptoms. That is how it happens in the titrations. Endless words and time has been wasted disagreeing as to “absolute deficiency” vs “functional deficiency” and what it means, if anything, for therapy. The idea of an absolute deficiency in either of these is ridiculous. MeCbl and AdoCbl have dose proportionality in the 1mcg to 10,000 mcg range or more and L-methylfolate has dose proportionate characteristics from 1 to 32,000mcg at least. As the level of folate/b12 function approaches zero the last symptom in the progression is paralysis of the diaphragm or heart failure followed shortly by death. Everything short of that is a summation of successive insufficiencies starting with 1 symptom and increasing up to several hundred symptoms and signs generally before diaphragm paralysis or heart failure and death.

    The old idea of “absolute” deficiency was based on low enough levels of b12 to cause Pernicious Anemia. Then other lesser symptoms then were not really deficiency but rather “functional deficiency” caused by some other lack. This was based on CyCbl or HyCbl only partially helping some dozens out of the hundreds of symptoms the active b12s and folate affect. So the 0.01-1% effectiveness of HyCbl and CyCbl, and the poor or even negative effectiveness of folic acid, has skewed the understanding of cobalamins and folate. That whole idea fought against the natural effectiveness of the active AdoCbl, MeCbl and L-methylfolate as some kind of aberration of “forced” healing as opposed to “normal” healing of HyCbl which turns out to be the starvation survival mode.


    Instead it now looks like the “fallback starvation” mode of limited healing of HyCbl and CyCbl versus normal fully effective healing of the active natural b12s somehow has become sacrosanct through 60 years of skewed research. The excellent first rate healing of real b12 became the aberration as the abnormal limited starvation mode became “normal”. This is exactly what has happened with blood test results. The normal of red cell MCV < 93 has been displaced as MCV < 100 or even MCV < 102 has become “normal” as acceptance of starvation mode as normal spreads and becomes “normal”. Many other blood measures are also affected and in those the abnormal has become the new “normal”. At the point that deficiency symptoms have taken over test results to the point of making the abnormal test results become normal, the system has been corrupted. The test results ranges as now defined are set to maintain deficiency and illness as the norm. The tests now serve to maintain disorders.


    Many other tests, in fact all the ones that might be affected by methylation and ATP availability, are biased now to support a set of chronic deficiency states that have become the norm by invading our food supply. Our biochemistry evolved over hundreds of millions of years. Somewhere very early on in our evolution bacteria started producing MeCbl and/or AdoCbl. Somewhere along the way they became the normal cobalamins for all animal life on this planet, just as hemoglobin (iron based) became the oxygen carrier system in animals. Nature is a tough master. Anything that can’t make it dies. Given 300,000,000 years we could have evolved to use HyCbl or CyCbl if that is what the whole lineage of micro and macro animals had evolved with it. It would have had full effectiveness if we had so evolved. However we didn’t evolve that way. We didn’t have billions and billions die from inability to use it effectively. We didn’t pay that price. However, we are now paying that price, completely unnecessarily at that. We have a significant portion of our population with untreatable chronic diseases.


    WHY DON’T HyCbl AND CyCbl WORK WELL?

    So when asked why don’t HyCbl and CyCbl work well it’s because they are not what our biochemistry evolved to use over hundreds of millions of years starting before mammals even existed. We did evolve a starvation mode of survival in which some of the previously used cobalamins that had become unusable throwaway forms after MeCbl breaks down or detoxifies cyanide and reclaim them. As with other work around methods it isn’t very effective and it doesn’t provide enough active cobalamins to do any major healing but it is enough to stay alive during a famine or a bad winter. It does require the presence of some reduced amount of each MeCbl, AdoCbl, l-methylfolate and l-carnitine fumarate to provide the needed biochemistry to fuel the conversion, allowing the body to tread water for a while.


    WHY ARE THERE ALL THESE COBALAMIN A, B, C, D, ETC DISEASES?

    These are the cataloging of all the ways our bodies didn’t evolve to use HyCbl and CyCbl. These gene variations never got culled out of us by disease and death in a natural environment. Those that had these enzymes might survive starvation better as they can use some trace cobalamins, but not enough difference to cull out those that don’t. General starvation isn’t selective enough. So many people don’t have the enzymes needed to transform trace cobalamins that the body creates from MeCbl for special purposes or post use or breakdown products, to recycle them for a workaround for starvation for a while. Some have even suggested that the lethargy of metabolic shutdown (seasonal CFS) achieved by AdoCbl/MeCbl starvation allowed early humans to survive long winters of semi starvation with very low food requirements substituting for true hibernation or winter sleep.


    WHY DOESN’T FOLIC ACID WORK WELL FOR EVERYBODY?

    When the same questions are asked about folic acid the same answers arise. If it were food it would be “stale” and spoiled. It’s too oxidized. It is to l-methylfolate as flaxseed oil is to linoleum. We never evolved to use that. It’s no wonder that nobody can convert enough folic acid to fulfill all folate requirements. It’s no wonder 20% can’t convert it at all, 30% can convert limited amounts and about 50% can convert up to about 800mcg daily of folic acid which is not as much as the body needs to heal. We never evolved to use it. 60 years of usage since it’s invention hasn’t killed the billions yet that would allow evolution to adapt to folic acid.


    WHY DO SOME PEOPLE FIND FOLINIC ACID UNUSABLE?

    Folinic acid is another matter. It is the natural folate of most vegetables. It is a handicap not to be able to use vegetable folate but lots of people can survive on the animal form of folate. It is a handicap to not be able to digest milk as an adult. Adults can do fine without milk and cheese. It is a handicap not to be able to utilize gluten, a protein in some grains. There are lots of alternatives to gluten. Milk as an adult food is a recent arrival on the scene. Grain containing gluten as a dietary mainstay is a more recent arrival on the scene. 10,000 years more or less hasn’t been long enough to for humans to fully genetically adjust. However, some populations have evolved to be able to drink milk as adult. Most people in the world can’t digest milk as adults. I “should” be able to digest milk as “should” my ex-wife. We both come from northern long term dairy drinking white folks. Neither of us can do so. Chances are our children won’t be able to either. I miss it but I sure don’t miss the digestive problems. Fortunately gluten gives me no problem at all. On these variables like adult milk and gluten, 10,000 or 20,000 years or whatever isn’t enough for a population to fully adapt. For vegetable folate, even 400,000,000 years hasn’t been long enough for 100%. However, I can use the natural animal form of folate, L-methylfolate or I wouldn’t be alive to write this as can 100% of people. Vegetable folate is an “also” or a biological workaround. However it is amply effective for the majority of persons. Some tribes evolved on high meat diets for a long time and some did not.



    In a normal software system after too many generations of changes it becomes unmaintainable and needs to be reconceptualized and redesigned. A college I went to in the 1960s had brand new physics and chemistry buildings both with standard air pressure, humidity and temperature. The only thing not standardized was local gravity. That standardization has NEVER been done in nutrition with all the active natural forms of the vitamins. What we have standardized on are CyCbl , HyCbl and folic acid. We are reaping the results, with all these rapidly increasing neurological, metabolic, neuro-psyc diseases and generally poor health with lots of symptoms and no treatments that actually work. Even worse is that these symptoms and diseases have become the “norm” as these fake vitamins are in many foods. I eat almost no white flour products, no fortified products, no corn syrup, minimal trans-fats and almost no processed foods. I avoid folic acid and CyCbl like the poisons they are to me. Instead I take the natural forms in sufficient quantity to allow my damaged body to function.



    Rich’s number one objection to what I first presented was that IT, whatever IT is, was widely happening and could not because of genetic inability to use HyCbl. He placed a lot of emphasis on the vanishingly small percentage of people that have the lettered cobalamin “diseases”; Cobalamin A, Cobalamin B, Cobalamin C and other such diseases. He was partially correct. The lettered diseases are terribly rare and were only invented (recognized) because of CyCbl and HyCbl. In the absence of these two oxidized inactive cobalamins none of these genetic conditions (“diseases”) would have been found. They were found because infants being given formula with CyCbl had failure to thrive. In fact they were starving to death rapidly because of a lack of the MeCbl, AdoCbl and l-methylfolate found in milk (at first) and basically all foods of animal origin that instead had soy milk with corn syrup and inactive oxidized artificial folic acid and CyCbl or HyCbl vitamins instead of the animal based forms.



    Carmen Wheatley’s “Giant Gorilla … Adenosylcobalamin …” (free download, don’t miss it http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carmen_Wheatley/publications/ ) article couldn’t have said it more plainly. It looks like the NATURAL effectiveness of the natural active forms of cobalamin is radically greater than HyCbl and CyCbl (I’ve said 100 to 10,000 times more effective for 9 years) and that the body being able to use HyCbl at all is a starvation workaround. It is the ALTERNATE pathway when starving to death that will barely maintain life but not health. Cobalamin A, B, C, D, E, etc are highly technical deficiency diseases lacking enzymes to convert one form to another, that only become visible when inactive cobalamins are substituted for active ones during man-made starvation of active cobalamins. There is a deadlock here too, as ATP is absolutely needed to power those enzymes. To make the ATP one MUST have some working AdoCbl and l-carnitine fumarate in the mitochondria already and some methylation capacity (MeCbl and l-methylfolate). In other words, those lettered diseases are also the result of the laboratory mistake that said that CyCbl was the real thing. In a “natural” environment they almost don’t exist. The only ones that do exist naturally relate to interconversion between AdoCbl and MeCbl and eating a mix makes that unimportant. Further they, the inactive forms, can only be converted to active forms if one has sufficient of the active forms to make the enzymes and energy for the conversion in the first place.



    We never went through the culling that would evolve us to use folic acid, CyCbl and HyCbl because they don’t exist in natural foods. All we ever achieved is a workaround pathway that salvages a minimum amount of usable cobalamins from the otherwise unusable cobalamins when the supply of fresh cobalamins runs out. We are being culled right now. MS, ME, FMS, CFS, Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s, Autism, Supra nuclear Palsy, IBS, Neuropathies, Subacute combined degeneration, reproduction failure, congestive heart failure, endothelial inflammation and failure, early death from a multitude of causes, all part of these manmade mystery diseases. They are the result of systematic starvation of the body of three absolutely needed vitamins with <1% effective oxidized (spoiled) pseudo vitamins substituted. This is the 21st century equivalent of Scurvy, Pellagra and Beriberi all rolled into one. Food when it is oxidized becomes spoiled, stale and rancid, not supporting health. Folic acid, CyCbl and HyCbl are all forms of concentrated food (vitamins ) that are oxidized, spoiled, rancid, stale and not supporting of health. Would you eat linoleum instead of fresh salad oil? It’s just oxidized edible oil. Sure, it keeps better but is it nutritionally the same? How about a nice meal of tanned leather instead whole roast pig? The leather keeps lots longer. But it isn’t the same when it comes to eating.



    Our children are suffering tremendously with these manmade diseases. I grew up in the 50s and 60s. I NEVER even heard of or saw a single child with ADD or AHDH or any of these many neurological disorders of children. Yes, we had Osgood Schlatter’s disease and Mono, mumps, scarlet fever, measles and chicken pox, anorexia was very rare and nobody at all had CFS or FMS. I see it all the time in pre-teens and teens now. There were NO children “stimming”. Now it can’t be avoided. You just didn’t see it then. I was in a lot of homes and saw all the children. Autism was extremely rare, not rarely recognized. Parkinson’s was rare. MS was rare. All these neurological diseases were rare. And don’t tell me it was because people died so much younger. Life expectancy at 65 in 1937 before antibiotics was just 3-4 years less than it is today, with lots of smokers at that time. It was life expectancy before age 5 or 10 that changed mostly. Now it is possible that all of us sick folks were the ones that would have died without childhood antibiotics and so we are being culled later. However, it appears more likely that the damage to the immune system that made us sick and needing antibiotics originally was caused by paradoxical folate deficiency to folinic acid which now expanded to include folic acid and CyCbl and/or HyCbl in ALL formulas and fortified cereals etc.



    So, chasing down all these cobalamin “diseases” is fruitless, a waste of money and effort since they don’t exist or don’t matter if everybody gets the real vitamins. Rich convinced me that I was barking up the wrong tree theoretically (not pragmatically, 2 different things as I was getting excellent results, I GOT WELL). If these genetic variations are too rare to be making so many people so sick then what is doing so? That answer is complicated.



    Rich was correct in calling what he was looking at “partial methylation block”. It is a partial block. Rich was looking at only the lowest level of the blockage, the folate-Cbl level. This is the most visible level of DNA-RNA transactions using MeCbl and l-methylfolate. The body, using the active transport system of transcobalamin has its own triage methods for supplying MeCbl and AdoCbl to various tissues. It can transport a few 10s of mcg per day to various tissues which is far more than the typical 5mcg or so eaten and absorbed. Rich said that using huge doses of MeCbl was “forcing” activity. Along the way he did say that he didn’t think that 1mg of oral or sublingual MeCbl was huge or forcing. However since MeCbl has a rather dose proportionate response range but was unmapped, it was some vague amount like 10mg injections. There were all sorts of wild ideas of how the active b12 protocol “ought” to be applied. So now, Wheatley has identified the “radically” more effective AdoCbl as the natural normal path and the HyCbl path as a barely working workaround for starvation in the control of inflammation.

    end part 1
    whodathunkit likes this.
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    part 2

    I have mapped the dose responsiveness of the active cobalamins. Generalized healing comes in 5 layers. Four of them can be “turned on” with 100mcg of mixed AdoCbl-MeCbl absorbed daily. This is basically ¼ of a 1mg sublingual MeCbl and the equivalent of AdoCbl. All it takes to turn on widespread healing in the body is somewhat more than active cobalamins then can be delivered in the active holotranscobalamin system. As soon as there is enough MeCbl/AdoCbl distributed by diffusion healing turns on throughout the body. Some healing takes place starting with the first mcg. The entire layer 1 of healing turns on with 100mcg mixed active cobalamins daily with l-methylfolate. The difference in effectiveness between 10mcg and 100mcg appears to be approximately 100 times. The difference in the body between 100mcg and 10,000mcg is approximately 20%-40% (0.2-0.4 times). The difference in the body between 10,000mcg and 100,000mcg daily is approximately zero. There is no apparent forcing of anything in the body by large amounts of active cobalamins. In 1mg quantity their serum halflife is 30 minutes. The use of that word “forcing” gives the entirely wrong idea creating fear of healing. 100mcg of mixed active cobalamins is certainly possible by eating a large serving of liver, or a seacoast area sized serving of steamed clams or oysters.



    My grandfather was kept reasonably healthy for decades by an old German cook whose “nerve tonic” stew slowed down his ALS. He was diagnosed in 1942 and died in 1973 after my grandmother got lung cancer and he was moved to a nursing home. He survived 6 months after the end of the nerve tonic stew. He was served every day a “stew” that was made by extracting all the good stuff from 5 pounds of liver daily and adding meat and veggies. He was being given every day the miracle working “protein mystery factor” which was liver extract and misidentified as CyCbl when actually it was MeCbl, AdoCbl, l-methylfolate and carnitine (the natural form of the deadlock quartet) plus all sorts of other vitamins.



    So, the first level of methylation and cell formation is confined to mostly the fastest reproducing cells in the body, epithelial tissues including skin, lungs, GI mouth to anus, vaginal and so forth. 100mcg of MeCbl plus 200mcg of L-methylfolate will turn on methylation approximately 100% of the time if it is not working and if the other cofactors are present in the body, but may not until all other deadlocking items are present. The other 2 items of the 95% deadlock are AdoCbl and L-carnitine fumarate. HyCbl competes for methyl groups. HyCbl requires ATP produced by AdoCbl and l-carnitine fumarate as well as an enzyme and a methyl group supplied by MeCbl, l-methylfolate or SAM-e (produced by MeCbl and l-methylfolate).



    It is this dependency of HyCbl on the presence of the products of MeCbl, L-methylfolate, AdoCbl and L-carnitine fumarate that makes it a poor choice. If the deadlock exists HyCbl can’t break the deadlock, ever, and if it does at first, it can exhaust that capacity over time and cause the deadlock to re-establish.



    Folic acid and folinic acid suffer from the same deadlocked conditions. Assuming that the person is genetically capable of the conversion (approx 20% of population are not for folic acid) the conversion still requires ATP (AdoCbl + LCF and secondarily MeCbl + L-methylfolate), enzyme and methyl group (MeCbl + L-methylfolate or SAM-e). Even if the amount converted is adequate when healing isn’t in high gear it likely won’t be adequate when all levels kick in.



    DEPENDENCIES

    So in order for HyCbl and folinic acid to actually work, one has to have enough MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate and LCF to produce the enzymes and ATP and donate the methyl groups in the first place. Further folinic acid (and folic acid) can even block 10-20 times as much l-methylfolate for various suspected and unknown reasons.

    In other words:

    1. METHYLCOBALAMIN IS DEPENDENT UPON AdoCbl, L-Methylfolate and L-Carnitine Fumarate

    2. ADENOSYLCOBALAMIN IS DEPENDENT UPON Mecbl, L-methylfolate and L-Carnitine Fumarate

    3. L-METHYLFOLATE IS DEPENDENT UPON MeCbl, AdoCbl and L-Carnitine Fumarate

    4. L-CARNTINE FUMARATE IS DEPENDENT UPON MeCbl, AdoCbl and L-methylfolate

    5. FOLIC ACID IS DEPENDENT UPON MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-Carnitine Fumarate and L-methylfolate

    6. FOLINIC ACID IS DEPENDENT UPON MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-Carnitine Fumarate and L-methylfolate

    7. HyCbl IS DEPENDENT UPON MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-Carnitine Fumarate and L-methylfolate

    8. CyCbl IS DEPENDENT UPON MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-Carnitine Fumarate and L-methylfolate



    Rich hypothesized that the reason that HyCbl and CyCbl were completely ineffective in 20-40% of trials and studies for whatever the study symptoms or signs were was that the necessary cofactors were missing. I pointed out that single item MeCbl was also ineffective in studies in the 20-30% range as a single item, also likely because lack of cofactors. The mystery for Rich and me for the past 4 years or so has been which cofactors? They certainly were not usually things like C, or D, or E or magnesium, though all of those can be a most limiting factor, they are collectively less than 5% causality. It turns out from pragmatic evidence from thousands of us at this and other boards, and a few people here and elsewhere including myself and friends, who worked through it step by excruciating step, that the Deadlock Quartet is the key to it all.



    NECESSARY AND SUFFICIENT

    The idea of necessary and sufficient is necessary for solving problems logically and effectively. What is the minimum required to allow a system to work? It’s a good test to apply. The current state of health in the USA demonstrates that what we are eating does not fulfill that “necessary and sufficient” for good health criteria. Obesity and chronic ill health run rampant.



    · The Deadlock Quartet is necessary and sufficient for good health. All four items are required to be present for any one of them to perform all it’s functions. The lack of any one can prevent methylation startup, ATP startup and general healing.

    · CyCbl is not necessary or sufficient for good health.

    · HyCbl is not necessary or sufficient for good health.

    · Folic acid is not necessary or sufficient for good health

    · Folinic acid is not necessary or sufficient for good health.

    · No combination of folic acid, folinic acid, CyCbl and HyCbl is necessary or sufficient for good health, even if LCF is included.



    To be sufficient they all need the Deadlock Quartet. None of these other items are necessary for the Deadlock quartet and only hinder or cripple it’s sufficiency or at best do nothing at all. The six levels of healing below can be turned on 1 or more at a time. Each level is dependent upon having the correct combination and quantity from the Deadlock Quartet.



    1. First level methylation blockage - We have epithelial cell formation at this first to shut down and first to startup level of the blocked methylation. It can come and go in days. MeCbl & L-methylfolate can cause methylation startup in hours generally. These are the first things to appear when paradoxical folate deficiency occurs or for some when HyCbl is consumed and epithelial methylation is shut down (2-3 days), acne type lesions first on scalp and face and spreading to body, angular cheilitis (sores at corner of mouth), IBS (4-5 days) and other symptoms. MeCbl 100mcg absorbed & L-methylfolate 200+mcg will start correcting, and titrate to sufficiency, 100mcg diffusion level, lesser insufficiency of other factors

    2. Second level of methylation blockage – Endothelial inflammation and failure, lack of deep tissue healing, deep tissue inflammation. MeCbl & AdoCbl 100mcg absorbed & L-methylfolate 800+mcg will start correcting and titrate to sufficiency, 100mcg diffusion level, greater insufficiency of other factors

    3. Third level methylation blockage, METHYL TRAP. This often has sudden hard onset. It occurs for lack of MeCbl in cells so L-methylfolate is expelled from cells. Rich pointed this out when the symptoms and circumstances were described. It starts suddenly, widespread inflammation and pain, severe muscle aches and pain, MCS, asthma, allergies, sudden severe flu like illness with little or no fever. May or may not be accompanied by severe abnormal fatigue. MeCbl & (AdoCbl & LCF - fatigue) 100mcg absorbed & L-methylfolate 800+mcg will start correcting and titrate to sufficiency, 100mcg diffusion level, greater insufficiency of all factors.

    4. Severe abnormal fatigue. Muscles don’t repair well. Severe muscle pains of many types. No exercise tolerance. Exercise doesn’t increase muscle or mitochondria increase. Edema, congestive heart failure. MeCbl & AdoCbl 1000mcg absorbed & L-Carnitine Fumarate & L-methylfolate 3200+mcg will start correcting and titrate to sufficiency, 1000mcg diffusion level, greater insufficiency of all factors before treatment.

    5. Severe abnormal fatigue. Muscles don’t repair well. Severe muscle pains of many types. No exercise tolerance. Exercise doesn’t increase muscle or mitochondria increase. Muscles atrophy. Everything is breaking down. Edema and congestive heart failure. Only watery fat, if anything, increases. Large weight gains on minimal food. MeCbl & AdoCbl 1000mcg absorbed & L-Carnitine Fumarate & L-methylfolate 3200+mcg (titrated to sufficiency) will start correcting, 1,000mcg daily diffusion level, greater insufficiency of all factors before treatment.

    6. CNS functioning and healing may require much larger doses of AdoCbl and MeCbl to penetrate the CSF/CNS by diffusion. MeCbl & AdoCbl 10000mcg absorbed 3 times daily & L-Carnitine Fumarate & L-methylfolate 3200+mcg (titrated to sufficiency) will start correcting, 30,000mcg daily diffusion level needed.



    Rich largely ignored AdoCbl. I had been lumping it in with MeCbl for a small specialized role in the mitochondria. We were both wrong. Over time processing the fats for making myelin was added to the understood functions of AdoCbl. However, that did not explain why some people had such a dramatic difference by taking it daily, such as my own daughter. For 8 years I had suggested taking AdoCbl from once a week to once a day. With the publication of Carmen Wheatley’s “Large Gorilla … Adenosylcobalamin …” (free download, don’t miss it http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carmen_Wheatley/publications/ ) I found a reason to take it daily myself and a proposed hypothesis for why there is so much variation in its effect between people. Utilization of B12/folate in the body operates on two major levels. When the necessary nutrients are in the body in sufficient quantity and distribution, generalized healing turns on. When any of these are insufficient, generalized healing turns off and goes into a starvation mode of conserving resources and barely getting by. This starvation mode is what has been researched for the past 60 years. Rich did see the key to getting out of that starvation mode, turn on methylation.



    I think that the differences we see in different people is related to how well people convert MeCbl to AdoCbl and that some people don’t appear to convert it at all. The results over the years also show that virtually nobody converts as much MeCbl to AdoCbl as the body actually can use and that there is a great deal of variability across a population. Eating meat, people get a mix of AdoCbl and MeCbl. Most of our bodies appear to be able to handle small scale interconversion making the exact ratio unimportant. However, those who can’t interconvert require both forms every day. In those people the diffusion level of healing of AdoCbl disappears if they don’t have some every day. For people who CAN’T interconvert MeCbl to AdoCbl adequately the HTC2 transport doesn’t deliver AdoCbl for use in controlling inflammation. It HAS to come via diffusion as AdoCbl in the first place. Right here is a reason that 100mcg of AdoCbl/MeCbl in diffusion has such a dramatically greater effectiveness in healing than 10mcg of cobalamin (MeCbl? or stripped of ligand requiring assembly at point of usage?) bound in HTC2. To convert MeCbl or a stripped cobalamin to AdoCbl requires an enzyme and ATP (requiring presence of AdoCbl in mitochondria and l-carnitine fumarate as well, Deadlock Quartet raises its head again). That would explain why these people who require AdoCbl daily require another 2 pharmacodynamic compartments to model this different behavior of AdoCbl in body and CNS, why it models like serum MeCbl
    whodathunkit, Hanna, ahmo and 4 others like this.
  4. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Are hycbl and cycbl added to foods?

    Like what?
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Vitamin enriched cereals like Special K, raisin bran, baby cereals, baby formula, adult formula (Ensure), vitamin drinks (energy drinks), Instant Breakfast, enriched breads, nutritional yeast, protein bars, all sorts of things. Some things that would be candy has vitamins added so that it has a nutrient ratio that disguises that it is candy. There is al lot hidden in our foods. Once study I read said that beef liver b12 content has fallen 95% in 50 years because of the cattle feed having CyCbl and/or folic acid. I don't know if HyCbl is stable enough to add to foods. It might be used in the UK and places that officially use HyCbl but I don't know.
  6. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    So we are becoming deficient in B12 because of the cycbl and maybe hycbl being added to our foods.

    If this hadn't have happened or I'd people always ate whole, real foods we wouldn't be seeing these diseases develop?

    Have I got this correct?
    Asklipia likes this.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Knackers,

    It is probably even more the folic acid that is casing many of the problems. There is this massive experiment being done on us, feeding us pseudo vitamins for decades, and for decades more and more people are becoming sick with the mystery diseases that the real active vitamins can often relieve or better yet prevent.
  8. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Ok so again if we ate paleo style, meat and veggies we would avoid the added incorrect form of folate?
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Here is the thing, once the damage is done it takes a lot more to fix it. I happen to be sensitive to vegetable folate as to folic acid and have been sick with it since early childhood,. That appears to be where a lot of the natural incidence comes from. 60 years ago there about 1 kid in a hundred like me at the school instead of a bunch in every class. However, there was more than one problem for me.
    1. Paradoxical folate deficiency from vegetable folate
    2. Low CerebralSpinalFluid-CNS cobalamin level, appears genetic causes unknown, common to CSF, FMS, Parkinson's, MS, ALS, Autism, Alzheimer's, Supra Nuclear Palsy and no doubt some others.
    3. Digesting various carnitine forms in meat all become amino acids and the body has to be able to synthesize each of the needed varieties. When we take LCF without food it is absorbed as is and effective rather than digested and requiring reassembly.
    Any one of these and a few more will cause illness by activating the deadlock, blocking methylation and/or ATP eventually. The above are just the ones I clearly had. I couldn't screen my parents genetics. I would have passed on a mother with paradoxical folate deficiency symptoms (colon cancer) and a maternal grandfather with B12/folate deficiencies and MS. My kids all have the 4 way deficiencies I do.


    No diet possible can prevent or correct these. The amount of MeCbl I have to have daily to prevent further damage to my brain and cord and maybe a little slow improvement is the amount contained in to 254 pounds of liver each day injected or otherwise absorbed to penetrate my CSF-CNS enough to heal it a little and keep it from, getting worse.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
  10. rogerThat

    rogerThat

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    Fredd : thanks for this wonderful effort. i definitely see progress. i however have run into an issue which i will like to see if you can help with. I added all the basics, started with mthylcobalamin, L-folate all to good results. however as soon as i added adocbl, i immediately started having dizziness specifically the vertigo kind, i have never had that before. i thought it could be low K, so i added potassium but to no help. I then backed off and readded it after some time to same results so its definitely adocbl. has anyone seen this? any fixes? its kinda strange that startup would add a new symptom. i can live with it but i just dont want to make sure i am not worsening it.
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi RogerThat,

    I have a few questions. So let's say you are just standing there and shut your eyes. Does it get worse? What happens when you stand on 1 foot? What happens when you shut your eyes while on one foot? How is your gait? Does it change in the dark (eyes closed, have somebody watching you)? All this without touching an item. The repeat while merely touching something with a hand. Specifically vertigo you say. Constant? How quickly does it wear off? Are you taking omega3 oils? Are you taking zinc and how much? How are the muscles in your feet? Are they strong enough to be able to balance? Are you able to know where your foot and/or leg is located, what it's angle is and so on. Do you trip over your toes or bump into things with your feet? Does it come and go with each dose?

    Vertigo when with other CFS/FMS/ME symptoms and affected by the Deadlock Quartet, is virtually always neurological damage as far as I've experienced. However, it can be in any number of places from feet to inner ears as opposed to an inner ear infection or something like that.

    When these supplements are started many symptoms intensify because nerves start working a little better right away. A damaged nerve that starts working a little gives "false" information that competes with "good" information. What conflicting information does to interpretation is anybody's guess. AdoCbl doesn't cause nerve damage but it can be involved in activating damaged nerves and is essential for remyelination of damaged areas so I wouldn't think that it would cause damage. It's lack does. The remyelination causes sudden changes. My experience of coming back from numb is that first there are intense painful jolts or other effects, depending upon the nerve which changes over time to. Then that fades to intense pain or painful tingles or other manifestations depending upon the nerve's function. The wrong signal tends to diminish towards a more mild experience, then to hypersensitivity and then towards normal. A "hole" in the myelin doesn't fill in all at once. Rather it acts like it gradually fills in from the edges. I woke up one morning in methyltrap and ATP crash. I couldn't even walk the vertigo was so intense. It took a few weeks for it to fade a bit as the nerves got worse. Finally it stopped as the nerve stopped any signals (hypothesis). Later when I started healing, I experienced several kinds of dizziness and vertigo that changed over the months until it was all but gone. They came back in reverse order of onset. The onset took 20-30 years with thousands of small changes. The healing happened in a year and 20-30 years of changes happened in one year backwards.

    So I don't see how it could be causing damage but rather it appears to be an artifact of the healing process when you take the "missing" item that strongly affects those nerves. More details can allow more specific hypothesizing.
    sueami likes this.
  12. rogerThat

    rogerThat

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    dude.. thanks a bunch...vertigo is pretty faint. and goes away shortly. only happens when i get up/lay down (changing postures essentially) balance is super fine for me. my only concern was that it started after adocbl. i take 30 mg zinc.... 1 gm fish oil. it starts 3-4 hours after adocbl dose. i also felt a bit of eye pressure the first time which lasted days. i take pure b complex plus. i am mthlcbl and l-mthf. clearly i either a need a lot of adocbl from the way i have reacted or i am missing something. my specific concern was that whether adocbl is suppressing endogenous adocbl production which basically means everytime i supplement,my endogenous levels go down and hence i see more and more symptoms(very unlikely). I have seen a lot of progress with ur protocol and there is no waY i am stopping it. just looking to optimize.
  13. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    @Freddd
    I hope that you are a fast typer. I can't imagine how long it must have taken to write all of this. You 're right. The history books will not be kind when they recount the collapse of health coinciding with the introduction of Industrialized Food and all the crazy additives.
    I overdid the carnitine fumerate and am back to 500 mg in the morning. It seems to me that I was more prone to PEF and my mood darkened. I am feeling better now.
    I hope that the brain-fog and other cognitive issues resolve in the months to come. Thanks for this - I have sent this link on to others.
  14. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Freddd, I don't know why I hadn't seen this post until today. Thank you very much. I tried getting access to The Very Large Gorilla, but, as I found when you initially posted the link, it asks for a university or other connection in order to register and see the paper. It's probably enough for me to read your references to it, but have you found some other way to be able to see it? Thx, ahmo
  15. Sea

    Sea Senior Member

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  16. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Sea, you bewdy! thanks so much.:thumbsup:

    ...wow, massive doc.I probably won't make it past Freddd's synopsis.
    Sea likes this.
  17. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    That article is just nasty. Other than AdB12 has an antinflammatory role is there any other take aways?
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Stridor,

    You mean full of extreme explicit biochemical language by "nasty" I assume. This is the third major role for AdoCbl. The first is mitochondria at the heart of ATP production and the second is processing fatty acids for myelin generation for healing nerves. Those are not in this paper. An important understanding is that with zinc it a complete fix for the inflammation and NO with no nasty leftovers like HyCbl leaves behind. She did the "scarlet pimpernel" papers before this and a whole lot of others, on HyCbl before this one and is an oncologist. I can't wait to see the next one.
  19. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    @Freddd
    I'm glad that you're smart enough to read things like this! It is over my head. I am topped up on adB12 and taken a couple of mg a day (with Zn) for the anti-inflammatory properties and have been doing that for a while now. Am I on the right track or should I be taking more? Or, is it anybody's guess given our current understanding?
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Stridor,

    A lot of it is very over my head too. A person needs MeCbl and methylfolate and everything else too. The inter reactions are very complicated.

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