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Active B12 Protocol Basics

Messages
31
@Freddd
Taking methyl-b12 seem to cause paradoxal folate deficency for me. It simply drains the folate. That forces me to take absurd high doses of folate that is not possible to be sustained. How do you get around that? Folate also drains the b12 if I take too low dose methyl-12. The balance seem to be impossible.
How much are you taking of each methyl-b12 and methylfolate? I'm suspecting that I might be experiencing the same thing, right now I'm on 22.5 mg methyl-b12 and 1.5 mg methylfolate as that's the recommended starting doses for Freddd's protocol, concerned that I might be depleting my folate levels this way though as I experience startup symptoms.
 
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Messages
29
I start with 100 mcg b12 and 200 mcg folate. From that I could easily ramp up to 15 mg b12 and 30 mg folate. I have tried just taking 1000 mg b12 and no folate, and within 1 hour I can feel the folate deficency creeping up. If I take folate and no b12 I get folate deficency symptoms too, from methyl trap. The ratio balance seems impossible for me to find. When I find the right ratio I feel completely cured for a couple of hours before donut hole symptoms return. Very frustrating.
 
Messages
31
I start with 100 mcg b12 and 200 mcg folate. From that I could easily ramp up to 15 mg b12 and 30 mg folate. I have tried just taking 1000 mg b12 and no folate, and within 1 hour I can feel the folate deficency creeping up. If I take folate and no b12 I get folate deficency symptoms too, from methyl trap. The ratio balance seems impossible for me to find. When I find the right ratio I feel completely cured for a couple of hours before donut hole symptoms return. Very frustrating.
30 mg folate? That's a huge dose. So you have to take more folate than B12? Because I always see the opposite, that you need to take more B12 to avoid methyl trapping. Do you also take adenosyl b12?
 
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29
If I don’t take more folate than b12 I would’t even get methylation started, the b12 would soak it all up before it even begins. Most multis etc have a 2:1 ratio folate to b12. And I do have the double whammy folate gene mutation. I don’t take adenosyl (I have in the past, it don’t do anything for me).
 
Messages
19
The symptoms discussed here do not sound anything like B12 deficiency to me. The textbook symptoms of B12 deficiency are:
  • extreme tiredness.
  • a lack of energy.
  • pins and needles.
  • a sore and red tongue.
  • mouth ulcers.
  • muscle weakness.
  • problems with your vision.
  • psychological problems, which can range from mild depression or anxiety to confusion and dementia.
Reflux is not among the typical listed symptoms. According to ChatGPT:


The other issue is that many of the listed B12 deficiency symptoms are so broad that they apply to a million other diseases. I went through the path of wishing I had X number of easily treatable conditions, but when my ME/CFS symptoms ultimately didn't respond to those treatments, it took several years to accept it wasn't as simple as B12 or methylation.


A single digit number of people here in my experience have reported being cured or close to cured after various methylation protocols. If you literally lack the capacity of processing B12 in the small intestine due to pernicious anemia or some rare genetic factors, then yes, obviously this is as simple as supplementing B12 and supporting factors like potassium.

In most people who are sick with ME/CFS type symptoms, the issues with our bodies go far beyond lacking a single vitamin or two. Even a functional approach focused on supplements and vitamins is typically trial and error with dozens of different things. Over the years I have found *certain* things that worked for me in terms of supplements, but it was not like reading a textbook, more like trial and error.

The good news is that treatment with B12 is generally safe, so it doesn't do much harm to try it out. In my case supplementing with methylcobalamin resulted in both increased anxiety and fatigue, which didn't go away despite false hope given to me that it would be "temporary".
Hi there,
How long did it take for the increased anxiety and fatigue to settle after stopping supplementing methylcobalamin?
Thank you :)
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,324
Hi there,
How long did it take for the increased anxiety and fatigue to settle after stopping supplementing methylcobalamin?
Thank you :)
About a week or two, which is the same amount of time it takes for me to "recover" from pretty much any worsening induced by a drug or supplement.
 

Methyl90

Senior Member
Messages
280
You have to consider oral absorption for methylfolate which is very poor, if you have the option try sublingual / sublabial as for B12. On 5mg of tablet even if it is held for 2 hours the absorption will not even be 1mg.
 
Messages
13
Since 2007 I had copper insufficiency for 14 years until 6th-7th year of Lithium and suddenly I had 24 hour b12 serum half life after injection as compared with 20-50 minutes, same as research indicated before I took the lithium. I also got to midrange copper quite quickly since then. Also, the potassium has stopped going so low as to give paralyzed gut.

If lithium helps raise and sustain copper levels, could it also do the same for zinc levels as well? Since zinc and copper are pretty much absorbed the same way.

I'm suffering from achlorhydria and all the problems that comes with that. Endoscopy was unremarkable. History of H pylori, not sure if the bacteria permanently destroyed parietal cells that produce the stomach acid or if it's a deeper problem with methylation which is preventing my body from generating enough energy for the mitochondria in my stomach from producing stomach acid. Betaine Hcl allows me to burp a few times but doesn't produce any positive results, my stomach just feels paralyzed and very slow. After eating my lower half of my body drops in temperature, i will go to bed at night cold and wake up the next day with a normal temperature. Hard to describe all of the symptoms to a doctor without sounding like a nut job. Weight loss is pretty consistent.

So basically symptoms of POTS/orthostatic hypotension, Bloating in the stomach, Intestines & migrating motor complex is broken basically. Tried high dose thiamine as some people suggest, B complex, magnesium, potassium, multi-minerals, you name it. Antibiotics did a number on my digestion and nervous system.

Pretty much struggling to get anything done testing wise due to the state of my health, some support from family but not enough to get all of the fancy tests done.
 
Messages
13
If lithium helps raise and sustain copper levels, could it also do the same for zinc levels as well? Since zinc and copper are pretty much absorbed the same way.

I'm suffering from achlorhydria and all the problems that comes with that. Endoscopy was unremarkable. History of H pylori, not sure if the bacteria permanently destroyed parietal cells that produce the stomach acid or if it's a deeper problem with methylation which is preventing my body from generating enough energy for the mitochondria in my stomach from producing stomach acid. Betaine Hcl allows me to burp a few times but doesn't produce any positive results, my stomach just feels paralyzed and very slow. After eating my lower half of my body drops in temperature, i will go to bed at night cold and wake up the next day with a normal temperature. Hard to describe all of the symptoms to a doctor without sounding like a nut job. Weight loss is pretty consistent.

So basically symptoms of POTS/orthostatic hypotension, Bloating in the stomach, Intestines & migrating motor complex is broken basically. Tried high dose thiamine as some people suggest, B complex, magnesium, potassium, multi-minerals, you name it. Antibiotics did a number on my digestion and nervous system.

Pretty much struggling to get anything done testing wise due to the state of my health, some support from family but not enough to get all of the fancy tests done.
I did a bit of digging into lithium, turns out it was used for treating gout and "brain gout". It's known to be used to treat manic depression and bipolar disorder. My father has digestion issues, gout, weird pains and bipolar symptoms (undiagnosed). Wonder if he's also lithium deficient, after reading about lithium a lightbulb went off in my head regarding his symptoms.
 
Messages
31
@Freddd

Could you please chime in here? I'm currently on methylfolate, sublingual methyl/adeno B12, sublingual B2 and magnesium/calcium. I'm slowly improving, but I'm about to add more cofactors to the protocol. Once they arrive, the protocol will look like this:

- 15mg methylfolate
- 6mg methyl/adeno B12 sublingual
- 18mg B2 sublingual
- 5mg lithium orotate (to help folate and B12 get into the cells)
- 2:1 magnesium/calcium
- 30/2mg zinc/copper
- 800mg L-carnitine fumarate

My reasoning for taking B2 and zinc is because tests have shown I'm deficient in both, and I've come to understand both are important cofactors in the methylation cycle. I want to know if it's fine to take all of these together at the same time in the morning? Or do I have to spread them from each other throughout the day?

I'm currently not taking any multivitamin/B-complex because like you and some others here, taking some vitamins like B1 and B2 above doses of 25mg causes me to feel even worse than I already do. Vitamin D supplementation make me feel terrible, but maybe the doses I took were too high. If there are other cofactors I should be adding, please let me know.
 

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,517
Location
Great Lakes
@HurrySaveMe, I wonder from what you wrote on your glutathione thread if you wouldn't do better with a rotation like not taking the supps everyday. ??

You said on that thread, "I have textbook symptoms of B12 and thiamine deficiencies, whenever I take Liposomal Glutathione for a couple of days I start experiencing major improvements...But after some days of these improvements I crash pretty badly, brain fog and fatigue becomes even worse for a while. This happens if I take full dose Liposomal Glutathione every day, but if I take a lower dose of it only occasionally combined with occasional sublingual methyl B12 and other B vitamins I have major improvements temporarily but without the crash afterwards."

I thought that was a very wise observation and something you were possibly going to implement into your supplement schedule and then maybe as your body adapts you could slowly increase the number of days you take it.

That's what I plan to do if I ever try the Thiamine again (even take it just once a week to start) 'cause it would be nice to have major improvements even temporarily once in a while than none at all which is where I am at right now.
 
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Messages
31
I thought that was a very wise observation and something you were possibly going to implement into your supplement schedule and then maybe as your body adapts you could slowly increase the number of days you take it.

I already tried this, but I've found it still induces worse deficiency symptoms. When I take glutathione even for just one day it makes muscles across my body tense up a lot and causes a pressure feeling in arms, legs and head. I do get a temporary significant improvement in brain fog though. Afterwards I'm left with worse deficiency symptoms such as dimmed nerve senses, worse digestive issues, changes to my urine, etc. I'm still dealing with the dimmed senses it's caused me. I just don't experience the hard crash like I would do after taking glutathione for several days in a row, the crash I got from doing that was so bad I was unable to do anything.
 
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Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,517
Location
Great Lakes
I didn't know. From your post it sounded like occasionally was helping you.

I understand though. A lot of us have problems with sulfur/thiols for whatever reason.

My sensitivity was getting better until I tried the Thiamine protocol. Now I'm back to having to avoid certain vegetables in that family or I get a headache.

Glutathione and thiamine are both sulfur/thiols.

Still I wonder if the rotation idea would be a gentle way to work into other vitamin protocols as well.

???
 
Messages
12
If I don’t take more folate than b12 I would’t even get methylation started, the b12 would soak it all up before it even begins. Most multis etc have a 2:1 ratio folate to b12. And I do have the double whammy folate gene mutation. I don’t take adenosyl (I have in the past, it don’t do anything for me).
Other way around. Most methylfolate/B12 combos have more B12 than folate, but the problem is that B12 is not absorbed well orally, so one ends up absorbing more folate than B12 from these combo capsules. I'm not sure where you get the notion in your previous post about how these two vitamins deplete one another, or one deactivates the other, it seems as though you're simply choosing your dosage based on whether or not you "feel methylated", which I don't believe is a good foundation for one's protocol.