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Active B12 Protocol Basics

Idie

Senior Member
Messages
134
Low copper among other things can cause the nail problems. Low cell making makes for easily torn nails. Each of several things has specific symptoms and characteristics that show up on the nails.
thanks Freddd. I just got my copper tests back and I fall mid range. Do you think that is ok?
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,343
Nitrous oxide is one of the things that destroys B12 instantly by permanently oxidizing it. People have gone into dementia in hours.
Couldn't find any evidence that points towards symptoms developing in "hours". Here is a story about a couple that abused nitrous oxide recreationally. It took them eight years to develop serious symptoms from nitrous oxide caused B12 depletion.
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,343
The bottom line is absolutely nothing else had helped *at all*. And I'm very defensive of something that has been working -- because I also believe that losing faith can be deadly or at least disabling. So I can't allow anyone to break my faith without strong evidence that this can't or shouldn't work for whatever reason.
Which is fine, I'm not here to break anyone's faith. Once you found something that works, you should of course keep using it. There is another recently active thread here where few people claimed thiamine (B1) cured them and they are firm believers in this protocol. I presented some skepticism in that thread as well about whether they really had B1 deficiency and people got defensive.

In the end whatever works and is safe to use is worth keeping in your supplement stack. Once a supplement works you don't really need faith so I try to detach any emotions from any supplement I trial, as it creates an emotional bias and placebo risk. If it works - great. If not, it's out of my stack and I move on to the next thing. Over the years, I've found help from certain bizarre supplements that nobody would think of -even kitchen spices - and then again, I found something like vitamin C increases my ME/CFS symptoms. I no longer try to make sense of it. The biochemistry of this disease is too complicated, so it is not practical for me to speculate exactly the mechanisms by which a treatment might help.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Which is fine, I'm not here to break anyone's faith. Once you found something that works, you should of course keep using it. There is another recently active thread here where few people claimed thiamine (B1) cured them and they are firm believers in this protocol. I presented some skepticism in that thread as well about whether they really had B1 deficiency and people got defensive.

In the end whatever works and is safe to use is worth keeping in your supplement stack. Once a supplement works you don't really need faith so I try to detach any emotions from any supplement I trial, as it creates an emotional bias and placebo risk. If it works - great. If not, it's out of my stack and I move on to the next thing. Over the years, I've found help from certain bizarre supplements that nobody would think of -even kitchen spices - and then again, I found something like vitamin C increases my ME/CFS symptoms. I no longer try to make sense of it. The biochemistry of this disease is too complicated, so it is not practical for me to speculate exactly the mechanisms by which a treatment might help.
First I had a 10 minute response to B12, then a one hour response to methylfolate and so on for everything involved all the way out to copper. And that was a secondary problem caused by inadequate lithium making tcr-Li and unable to get copper higher than the rock bottom of the range which wasn't working for me;. The thing that is holding up the cell making is the ONLY one that will respond. The order can be different for each person as while some things are statistics of frequency one doesn't know the proper order until your body tells what it is. So pay attention. Each missing thing has it's own characteristics.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
First I had a 10 minute response to B12, then a one hour response to methylfolate and so on for everything involved all the way ourt to copper. And that was a secondary problem caused by inadequate lithium making tcr-Li and unable to get copper higher than the rock bottom of the range which wasn't working for me
Couldn't find any evidence that points towards symptoms developing in "hours". Here is a story about a couple that abused nitrous oxide recreationally. It took them eight years to develop serious symptoms from nitrous oxide caused B12 depletion.
It depends on how the person uses the N2O. And some people have very little B12 and not in TCR-Li which protects the b12 from things like CO and N2O
 

TinaT

Senior Member
Messages
291
Right. I saw the nitrous oxide over many years article too. But the initial levels matter. The B12 book says that those who are already low are at risk with surgery. As a plant based eater with a very spotty B12 supplement regimen before the surgery and dental procedures, I would have been low.

That being said, I have no idea whether they even used nitrous oxide.

It's a really long story but I might have had covid the December before the worsening (no positive test, but there is good evidence that covid tests really suck in mild cases).

So this may be long covid, to some degree.

However, there are some cases reports of those with long covid improving with B12 and iron -- and I guess maybe a speculation that covid could reduce B12 and / or iron. Or at least people are testing low after having covid.

I think the evidence is clear that many people develop reflux from covid, and some of my other symptoms.

And -- the evidence is also clear that pepsid combined with a low acid, whole food, plant based, and therefore *extremely* restrictive diet over more than a year certainly could cause a B12 deficiency, esp in someone already low.

And it's interesting that you mention B1. I actually think I would have had, and did have, a list of deficiencies. I know for a fact that I was not ingesting even the RDA of several nutrients including vitamin C, magnesium, calcium, and who knows about B vitamins. (Also protein was very low bc gastroparesis meant no more beans and even protein powder was a challenge.) My diet was very bad so I was extremely concerned from the very beginning of this doctor prescribed craziness. Then I only got worse and worse.

So I'm pretty confident that this entire protocol is helping various serious issues. Like Freddd said, these are results that you can often feel within hours -- and remarkable for someone who has tried absolutely everything from many doctors, naturopaths, therapists, medical devices, etc etc over more than a year. I now spend what used to be my workday trying to find answers to get back to full health. I've read a lot and tried a lot. I've spent a lot of money in the process. Nothing has worked before now -- but I started with a list of vitamins, including B12, and more protein, because I was convinced that I was in a refeeding situation (which is dangerous), and my nutritionist actually suggested a multi and B complex, another doctor mentioned vit C.

Unfortunately, for some reason my current regime is causing almost dangerously low BP. I have had relatively minor BP issues over the last year. But only like just for a short time after being sick then I have always promptly returned to my normal, very consistent about 115/70 or so. Lately, every night, my BP is dropping really low (last night 93/60). And it's pretty low even during the day.

My retired scientist friend did a little research and discovered vit C can cause bloating, heartburn, and lower BP. I've been taking 4K per day (suggestion of doctor, intended only temporarily). So I'm stopping that for a while. I also drink mostly alkaline water, which she found could reduce BP. I'm going to cut that back as much as possible. I'm hoping those two things help.

But at least one blog post suggested that B12 can lower BP, and still can't find that Mayo doc who said the same thing. Blog post (random; who knows about legitimacy) suggested an endocrine supplement?? I don't like taking anything much less random questionable supp. But I'm still wondering. I will have to reduce the frequency of my B12 shots if I figure out they are causing this.

I'll try to link below to the blog post. I did order an endocrine supplement from Pure. Ingredients sounded relatively innocuous but I'm not loving that I would need something like this.

I also took 6 mg of methylfolate yesterday and had insomnia after 4 hrs of sleep. Timnitus also spiked after being very quiet lately. So I'm going to have to titrate slower. That seemed like too much for me right now.

Here's one of the long covid / B12 articles:

https://www.cambridgeindependent.co...mbridge-tells-how-simple-treatment-t-9203620/
Here's the blog post about low BP (has anyone ever heard of endocrine supplements?):

http://www.b12d.org/blog/view?id=44
Here is the endocrine supplement (any thoughts?):

https://www.pureformulas.com/endocrine-balance-2-oz-by-dr-morses-cellular-botanicals.html
 
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TinaT

Senior Member
Messages
291
Couldn't find any evidence that points towards symptoms developing in "hours". Here is a story about a couple that abused nitrous oxide recreationally. It took them eight years to develop serious symptoms from nitrous oxide caused B12 depletion.
I think you are misunderstanding that the level of B12 in the person, before the exposure, is what determines how much exposure can be tolerated. I'm attaching pages from the book (there are more; they have an entire chapter on surgery risks with B12).
 

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TinaT

Senior Member
Messages
291
Sorry, I cannot get the link to work. It is the one that is about 51 minutes long.
That's okay. We watched a B12 documentary years ago. It's probably the same one I'm guessing. I remember being really surprised. I'll take a look again though. Thank you for the suggestion.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
You need to take ALL the vitamins titrated to working in the right order otherwise you will have things that work for a day or two and then stop with different symptoms. This includes things like l0-carnitine and TMP for the send part of the formula, and b-complex and minerals
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
I always injected 10 mg mecbl 3x per day for 20 years until I got it working well with lithium making TCR-Li and WOW. Now I have a lot of my B12 in TCR-Li that protects from all sorts of chemical insult. I never had a problem with N2O but have read a lot about it. I spent 30+ years consulting to group health and I got all sorts of "consult of last resort" calls from doctors for certain B12/folate problems including neonates.

Infants have been born of short maternal B12 and lithium) because of maternal fluoride which breaks the TCR-LI since the 1950s and causing all sorts of problems at birth. And usually folic acid and CyanoCBL are worse than useless in this situation.
 
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Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
How did you do this exactly? Was that 350 every hour? Sounds like a really scary night.

I know the idea is to heal faster but my thought is that it seems better to avoid severe potassium deficiencies. I do eat a very high potassium diet as an almost vegan. I have added meat but very little -- the rest is whole food, plant based.

Right now for lunch I'm eating a "banana sandwich." Basically: banana, 1.5 slices ezekial bread, homemade peanut butter, a little honey, and 1.5 c plain soy milk (not fortified). That's almost / about 1500 mgs of potassium. My breakfast was probably high. And my dinner will be high.


At night, if my BP is getting low, I make a banana smoothie with soy milk, banana, and protein powder. That usually seems to help stabilize my BP. I just can't keep eating so close to bedtime bc that is something that can make reflux get worse again. And that doesn't help the constant bloating.

I did read a refeeding case study where they used a high potassium diet (only). But the guy was getting much lower doses of B12 by injection every day (100 mcg), and iron, for 14 days.
I put several hundred of potassium GLYCINE in a pint of water which I drink with vitamins and other minerals while eating. don't do potassium chloride, as it can go against the stomach tissue and concentrate making an acid and do damage. Time release pellets all separated however is fine, Be careful what you use.
 
Messages
31
Is the original post from 2011 still the current protocol or have you changed it since? I want to give it a shot, many of my current symptoms mirror yours such as neuropathy and loss of sensation. A lot of my issues started when I took Liposomal Glutathione in 2021, but I was also dealing with other issues that I tried taking the glutathione for so I'm still not sure what the exact cause is.

I've experimented since, and found out that taking glutathione supplements improve my brain fog a lot temporarily for a few days, but causes a hard crash afterwards and I'm left even worse for a while. Taking sublingual B12 from Vimergy specifically does stuff to me, I tried it for a few days together with 400 mcg Metafolin and had some noticable improvements in my cognitive function, loss of sensation, circadian rythm as well as improvements with my stomach symptoms as my gut seems to have become borderline paralyzed ever since this started. I was also taking high dose thiamine at the same time so at first I thought it was maybe the thiamine causing the improvements, but now I'm on thiamine without the Vimergy B12 and I'm not really seeing the same improvements anymore. Right now I'm trying a cheaper brand of sublingual B12 but it doesn't seem to have as much of an effect on me, Vimergy is clearly more potent but it's more expensive. The Vimergy did also cause some side effects alongside the improvements such as head pressure, red dots on my palm, and yellow mark on the skin of my thigh, I don't understand why but maybe I was overdoing it with the dose.

Could you weigh in on what you think?
 
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Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
My experience with glutathione uis that it causes a catastrophic B12 d3efice4ncy in a day or two. It went from slightly visible in urine to strong red with the glutathione for a day and get rid of all the non protected B12. It was a disaster waiting to happen, very quickly.

I tried about 10 brands to find one or two brands that worked , or maybe absorbed, best
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
You mean glutathione or B12? If so, which B12 brand is it?
Glutathione causes massive "CATESTROPHIC" B12 DEFICIENCY in a day or two. It is dangerous. As I have decent B12 system now after 7 years of lithium making TCR-Li I have a very well working B12 system with a 24 hour half-life estimated. instead of the 20-50 minutes after an injection without a working lithium-B12 system. I can't tell the difference between MeCbl brands any more and haven't been able to for many year now. And some of the things may be specific to certain people by chance of what is the cause.
 

TinaT

Senior Member
Messages
291
You mean glutathione or B12? If so, which B12 brand is it?
I like injections from a compound pharmacy. I don't know about the amount absorbed but I can clearly feel a very positive improvement from injecting 1 mg daily. I'm also trying several brands that include dibencozide from iherb and Amazon -- one day per week. I have only tried a quarter pill so far and that gave me a strong flushing type feeling (weird bc no niacin was involved). Maybe that's the wrong word. But the somewhat intense reaction only lasted for a few minutes. Otherwise, I didn't notice much of any effect. Obviously the dosing may be the issue there
 

Idie

Senior Member
Messages
134
You mean glutathione or B12? If so, which B12 brand is it?
NOW has a 10,000 mcg (10mg) sublingual. I have used that and it has been effective for me. The other brand is Nature’s Way B12 Infusion Methylcobalamin. I have only found that at iherb. It is 1,000 mcg or 1 mg sublingual.
 

TinaT

Senior Member
Messages
291
@Freddd I've read several sources saying that B12 injections can cause heart failure. One even said that heart failure is a common side effect. That's hard to believe. But do you know why that would be? And any water retention seems concerning -- doesn't that have to be something pretty bad like heart or liver failure? I definitely am getting paranoid esp since my blood pressure keeps dropping with the shots (at which time, I feel very weak and tired). I did read another source that said folate deficiency can cause low BP. I'm just nervous about continuing shots without a full cardiac workup (which obviously would delay shots and I really don't want to do). I guess for whatever reason, sublingual doesn't have the same risks. I really can't figure out why injections would have more risks. Have you heard of heart failure risk with injections? And do you think I should try switching to sublingual for a while? And do you still believe in leaving tab in mouth for 90-120 min?
 
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