Transdermal B12 oils

[Kathevans]

Question for you guys taking the oils - any issues with insomnia and if so how have you resolved?
I wasn't having much of an issue when I was taking sublingual and was ok when I first started on the oils but the last month has been really hard and it feels like its getting worse. I struggle to get to sleep, my restless leg syndrome is much much worse, if I do sleep I wake multiple times in the night and then early in the morning. Getting no more than a few hours each night which isn't conducive to healing so want to crack this!

I took the Adenosyl/Methyl Oil, myself for months, as much as 3 splurps/day and found initial exhilarating results. Even a fair amount of sleep. But over time, this has shifted. The last month has been difficult, increasing insomnia, increasing heart palpitations, increased need for potassium as well as increased folate needs/symptoms, constant IBS and stomach growling. I've spent more nights than I want to count sitting up with my heart fluttering or beating irregularly, unable to ascertain what the heck I needed in the potassium:folate:b-12 triumverate. And note this too: it seems that no matter how much potassium I take during the day, my body needs it at night as well, which results in me constantly getting up to respond by drinking K+, getting up to pee, and more reflux from drinking the K+ and so on, ad nauseum. My potassium needs, which used to be limited to day time, are currently at about 2500-2800. My folate ranges from about 13,000mcg-20,000mcg.

Totally frustrating and exhausting.

I've tried to figure this out, wondering if this was a case of the Adenosyl 'driving the folate and potassium needs--my own early sense--or whether it was a case of the Adenosyl somehow blocking the use of the Methyl, and therefore somehow raising the need for folate and potassium--which Fred seems to intimate on the 'Refeeding' thread.

Very confusing.

I'm still experimenting. But the issues that have definitely gotten worse with the Adenosyl/methyl B12 Oils are my IBS, heart irregularities and my insomnia.

I wish that everything pointed as clearly to mercury issues as it does for @garyfritz, but it just isn't so obvious. I have had one quadrant of amalgams removed at a cost of about $8,000 (Ugh!), but progress has been halted by a death in the family, so I have a divided focus for the time being... Still, Gary, it looks like a positive corrrelation for you, and for that I'm happy, and heartened for my own situation, as well. I'll push a bit harder to move forward on the removal. It's just that that first quadrant, which did include a nightmarish root canal extraction, freaked me out and has blunted my enthusiasm and my courage for moving forward....

A little bit chicken here.

Take note @Athene* ! Getting the truth out there...

 

[garyfritz]

Ugh, don't tell me about nightmarish RC extractions... I've got one coming up in just over a week!

Yes, I think my signals definitely point toward mercury: long-term issues that matched mercury symptoms that greatly worsened when a filling fell out, huge demand for B12 that Greg (who doesn't believe in merc toxicity, at least not from amalgams) could never explain, adverse reaction to accidental ALA exposure, dramatic drop in B12 need when I started Cutler's Core Four, further improvement as I've been removing amalgams, etc.

I'm hoping that "everything will be wunnerful" once I get the last amalgams out and chelate for a while!

 

[sb4]

@Kathevans Have you considered that other b-vits may be at play? I had a very big downward spiral from using folate and b12 last year that I now think was caused by depleting my thiamine. I have recieved significant success from thiamine now (although it has its own problems)...

 

[Kathevans]

@sb4 Yes, I have considered thiamin. IT doesn't seem to be the problem, though I'm always willing to look at it again. NutrEval Test soon...

 

[mrmichaelfreedmen]

Has anyone had allergic type reactions with there hydroxocobalamin? The morning after application

 

[Marc_NL]

Has anyone had allergic type reactions with there hydroxocobalamin? The morning after application

I have no allergic reaction from this oil. If I remember well others talked about it earlier in this thread though.

 

[mrmichaelfreedmen]

I have no allergic reaction from this oil. If I remember well others talked about it earlier in this thread though.

Do you happen to know what page? I've looked and can't find.

 

[garyfritz]

I don't remember anyone showing actual allergic reactions. Some people have seen some red bumps on their skin near where they applied it, and some people had other reactions like "my body started inhaling potassium when the b12 got everything working," but that's all I remember.

 

[mrmichaelfreedmen]

I don't remember anyone showing actual allergic reactions. Some people have seen some red bumps on their skin near where they applied it, and some people had other reactions like "my body started inhaling potassium when the b12 got everything working," but that's all I remember.

@garyfritz Ty

I wake up with partially swollen eye lids.

I apply at night as it helps me sleep, b12 and glycine help maintain the myelin sheath around nerves.

SC or IM b12 injections no problem.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/322041-supplements-that-support-the-myelin-sheath/

I think b12 acts a bit like a general tonic for the nervous system.

 

[garyfritz]

It's not really that B12 is a tonic, but that it's a crucial ingredient for nervous system function (and hundreds of other things). B12 deficiency causes nerve demyelination very similar to MS. And B12 deficiency is rampant, especially in older adults. The RDA and the accepted blood levels are both very low, too low for good health. There is no toxic level of B12 -- you could bathe in the stuff and it wouldn't hurt you. So there is no harm in experimenting with seemingly-insanely-large doses to see if it helps. Until I started treating for mercury toxicity, I was using 5000 **times** the RDA. If I tried to reduce my dose (because the stuff wasn't cheap!), I started suffering within hours. I clearly needed that much.

 

[Eastman]

There is no toxic level of B12 -- you could bathe in the stuff and it wouldn't hurt you. So there is no harm in experimenting with seemingly-insanely-large doses to see if it helps.

I used to think like that but nowadays, I have doubts about the safety of large doses of B12 or folate. Did you see this earlier post?

@Kathevans Have you considered that other b-vits may be at play? I had a very big downward spiral from using folate and b12 last year that I now think was caused by depleting my thiamine. I have recieved significant success from thiamine now (although it has its own problems)...

Similar reports here, here and here.

 

[garyfritz]

It's certainly possible for B12 to start up metabolic processes that have been dysfunctional for a long time, and that might cause a sudden demand for other nutrients. I suspect that's what's happening with a lot of people trying to follow Freddd's protocols. But Google for "B12 toxicity," and you will find everything says there is no toxic level.

 

[Eastman]

... But Google for "B12 toxicity," and you will find everything says there is no toxic level.

That's how I initially concluded that B12 is safe. I've since learned that sometimes, you need to dig very, very deep to find important facts regarding safety and efficacy of treatments.

 

[garyfritz]

Please share what you found in your delving! I assume you don't mean the PR threads you referred to above.

I know that in my personal case, large doses of B12 stopped and controlled a set of problems that had been driving me mad for several years. If I try to reduce the dosage, I quickly regret it. In my personal case I believe my large requirement for B12 is mostly driven by mercury toxicity. Starting a mercury treatment program is the only thing that has reduced my voracious appetite for B12.

 

[Eastman]

If you're looking for formal studies, there was this study that showed that high doses of folic acid, B6 and B12 vitamins resulted in reduced kidney function and an increase in vascular events, conditions that thiamine has been shown to improve. Of course, the inclusion of B6 is a confounding factor here.

Still, thiamine is considered "of most importance in complications of refeeding" among vitamins, according to this paper on refeeding syndrome.

Also, if you look at the symptoms many members report after taking methylation supplements, you will find that they are often symptoms associated with thiamine deficiency, eg tachycardia, fatigue, but are here often attributed to potassium deficiency instead, probably due to Freddd's emphasis on the latter and relative neglect of B1.

Disorders of nutrition: Thiamin

Beriberi (Thiamine Deficiency) Clinical Presentation

How Can Something As Simple As Thiamine Cause So Many Problems?

 

[garyfritz]

Ok, but I don't see how that indicates any level of toxicity or other problems from high-dose B12...

 

[marco_man]

Very appreciative of all the info in this thread. Just had 2 questions that I was hoping to get the answer to:

1. Do the B12 oils need to be refrigerated? I have read that mb12/adB12 deteriorate if not refrigerated or they are exposed to light... not sure if that applies to these oils or not
2. How many times daily should I apply a dose of the oils? I plan to use the mb12/adb12 oil. I found I require around 40mg daily of mB12 and 40mg daily of adB12 both taken sublingually. Would be great to be able to cut this down and use a more efficient method but not sure what the oil equivalent would be

Greatly appreciate any help!

 

[alicec]

Do the B12 oils need to be refrigerated?

No, instructions are store below 30 deg C.

How many times daily should I apply a dose of the oils? I plan to use the mb12/adb12 oil. I found I require around 40mg daily of mB12 and 40mg daily of adB12 both taken sublingually. Would be great to be able to cut this down and use a more efficient method but not sure what the oil equivalent would be

You would need to work out what suits you best. People often apply a largish dose in the morning and top up in the afternoon/evening.

You might be getting at best around 10% absorption from sublinguals.

The oils have about 80% absorption. A single squirt of the methyl/adenosyl oil delivers 1.8 mg adenosyl and 0.7 mg methyl B12 so around three pumps might be roughly equivalent to your sublingual adenosyl dose but less than the methyl dose.

Perceived potency may be very different however.

 

[marco_man]

Thanks very much Alice for your helpful reply

I am looking forward to receiving the oils shortly and giving them a go. Will report back in case the info can help anyone else.

 

[Creachur]

I want to try B12 oil but I believe there are no local suppliers in the UK. Instead I might use a water based solution of B12 and mix it with skin lotion before rubbing it into the skin.

I am particularly interested in taking adenosyl-B12 (from here or here) but I saw an article called "Photodegradation of cobalamins in aqueous solutions and in human blood" say this:

"AdCbl and MeCbl [in aqueous solutions] are converted to OHCbl within seconds during UVA exposure".

That suggests that topically applied adenosyl-B12 or methyl-B12 will get absorbed as hydroxo-B12 which is not what most users would want. On the other hand, ome people here have said they get results which suggest they are absorbing adenosyl-B12 and methyl-B12.

Does anyone have any information about this?