Transdermal B12 oils

[alicec]

"AdCbl and MeCbl [in aqueous solutions] are converted to OHCbl within seconds during UVA exposure".

There's a difference between exposing a cobalamin solution to pure UVA or to sunlight or artificial light, of which UVA is just a component.

Here is a study looking at the effect of sunlight and artificial light on cyanocobalamin solutions. They concluded

Cyanocobalamin loss (950 mug/ml and 95 mug/ml) on exposure to sunlight for 2 hours amounts to 14.7-21.0% and 56.3-81.5% respectively indicating that light intensity is the rate determining factor in the reaction. In artificial light for 2 hours B(12) (950 mug/ml and 95 mug/ml) loses 2.7.19.4% and 1.5-27.7% respectively.

I don't have any studies of the stability of adenosyl or methyl forms on hand but they would be similar.

If the aqueous solutions are refrigerated and opened and applied in low light, you would be getting minimum loss through photodegradation.

 

[Sparrowhawk]

The Aussie gent who makes the oils is supposedly a PhD chemist so I assume he has worked out stability and absorption issues. @garyfritz would have more.

 

[Creachur]

I don't have any studies of the stability of adenosyl or methyl forms on hand but they would be similar.

I wonder if, in fact, adenosyl-B12 is more light sensitive than other forms. This recent study and others like it suggests it might be. They suggest adenosyl-B12 is so sensitive that it might even be acting as a switch to protect a damaged cell from reproducing. (Or something like that, as my understanding of this point is a bit hazy.)

"New light on vitamin B12: The adenosylcobalamin dependent photoreceptor protein CarH" (link to article)

"The coenzyme forms of vitamin B12 – adenosylcobalamin (AdoCbl) and methylcobalamin
(MeCbl) – are extremely unstable to light and were converted to CNCbl by photolysis during the work-up
procedure of their original isolation. This sensitivity to light is considered to be a great nuisance by researchers
because all experiments involving coenzymes must be performed in the dark or under dim red light. However, until recently, the photosensitivity of B12 coenzymes appeared to have no physiological function."

 

[alicec]

I wonder if, in fact, adenosyl-B12 is more light sensitive than other forms.

By similar, I meant of the same order. I believe there are small differences among the cobalamins and the adenosyl form may well be the most photosensitive.

I did a quick google - without spending too much time, found one relevant statement -

The irradiation of AdoCbl aqueous solution (3.2x10-5 M) by a 60 W bulb at a distance of 25 cm causes 26% decomposition of the vitamin within 5 min.

In other words a brief exposure to low light is not going to be a problem.

The paper you quote is simply showing that some bacterial species have taken advantage of the photosensitivity of the Co-C bond in AdoCbl and use it as a co-factor for a photoreceptor.

By the way the quote you show is not quite correct. Yes it is true that the photosensitivity of the cobalamins is a great nuisance in research, but the reason that the active forms were converted to CNCbl during the original isolation was the use of activated charcoal which introduced significant cyanide contamination which readily reactied with the active cobalamins. For a long time it was though that CNCbl was the active cobalamin.

I think you are overly complicating things and looking for problems where they don't exist.

 

[garyfritz]

I asked Greg about this once. If I remember right, he said the oils were dark enough (especially the ado/me and hydroxy) that they are "self-protecting" -- light doesn't penetrate very far into them to do damage. So then I asked what about when I rub it onto my skin? He said it soaks into your intercellular spaces quickly enough that it's not a problem.

Personally I wouldn't apply it in full sunlight. But a bit of light from your bedside lamp or whatever won't hurt anything.

 

[Creachur]

I asked Greg about this once. If I remember right, he said the oils were dark enough (especially the ado/me and hydroxy) that they are "self-protecting" -- light doesn't penetrate very far into them to do damage. So then I asked what about when I rub it onto my skin? He said it soaks into your intercellular spaces quickly enough that it's not a problem.

@garyfritz Thanks for the feedback. I wonder if manufacture is conducted away from UV light. I have to say I am a bit suspicious of a company which talks about its "Miron glass" bottles as allowing light to energise its contents:

The secret of Miron Violet Glass is based on the fact that violet spectral range (720 - 770 Bio herz) permanently activates and energizes the molecular structure, and the healing energies of substances stored in the Miron Violet Glass doesn't "escape".

http://www.epigenetics-international.com/31/Miron_Glass/

On the other hand, I am not entirely persuaded that the best colour to choose for a container to keep out UV light is blue as shown here in this competitive product.

Well, I guess I will just have to order some and just see if it works for me.

 

[alicec]

I have to say I am a bit suspicious of a company which talks about its "Miron glass" bottles as allowing light to energise its contents:

What does this have to do with B12 oils? - which by the way are packed in completely opaque containers.

 

[garyfritz]

Yes, I have no idea where you got the epigenetics-international.com site, but it has nothing to do with the products from b12oils.com that we're talking about.

 

[Athene*]

I want to try B12 oil but I believe there are no local suppliers in the UK. Instead I might use a water based solution of B12 and mix it with skin lotion before rubbing it into the skin.

I am particularly interested in taking adenosyl-B12 (from here or here) but I saw an article called "Photodegradation of cobalamins in aqueous solutions and in human blood" say this:

"AdCbl and MeCbl [in aqueous solutions] are converted to OHCbl within seconds during UVA exposure".

That suggests that topically applied adenosyl-B12 or methyl-B12 will get absorbed as hydroxo-B12 which is not what most users would want. On the other hand, ome people here have said they get results which suggest they are absorbing adenosyl-B12 and methyl-B12.

Does anyone have any information about this?

Only my own experience i.e. when using the oils I was getting symptoms which I got before when my methylcobalamin ampules were accidentally exposed to light.

Currently I very carefully use methylcobalamin by injection only. I use a safe light (darkroom light) to fill the syringes, then I wrap the syringes in foil before injecting (learned this method from @Freddd). I am doing much better on this regime than on the oils. I got very sick using the oils for several months, not realising I was going downhill from low B12.

When I began injecting again I improved within a week and have continued to improve. I use sublingual Adenosylcobalamin only.

I should say I have multiple snps and mutations that affect absorption, transportation and recycling of B12 & folate, and intend to test for Cblc genetic disease. My father died young of same symptoms which progressed to paralysis and death. I was accidentally diagnosed (untreated for decades) with 'pernicious anaemia'. I may need more active B12 than some folk here, though some are in the same boat as I am.

 

[Creachur]

Yes, I have no idea where you got the epigenetics-international.com site, but it has nothing to do with the products from b12oils.com that we're talking about.

@garyfritz @alicec
I guess I haven't been referring specifically to B12 oils. Apologies if my questions have seemed a bit off topic. I figured UV degradation (during either manufacture or application of adenosyB12) would be similar whether dissolved in water or oil.

To be honest, I would very much prefer to try Greg's oil-based adenosylB12 but the costs and delays in getting a delivery to the UK are prohibitive, so I need to find an alternative.

@Athene*
Thanks for mentioning Freddd's precautions about light for B12. I hadn't realised there are quite a few posts from different people about this which I can now read. If you're aware of a significant post which I may overlook then please let me have a link.

 

[Athene*]

@Creachur You'll probably find @Freddd's advice on light sensitivity if you do a search on the site. He mentioned somewhere an 'ortho fast red safe light'. I just use a 'red safe light' and it does fine - the Meb12 looks like clear liquid when I fill the needles. If you see any red or pink during handling you know the light's getting at it.

I have the below thread bookmarked too, see #3 from @whodathunkit on not needing to refrigerate it. She got better on @Freddd's protocol. I don't refrigerate mine but I keep it in a cold place in the house and in summer I put a wrapped ice pack into the plastic box where it's kept along with the syringes & wipes etc. We don't have very hot summers except for a few days here and there - moderate climate here. You may need to refrigerate in summer if you live in a hot climate, but with air conditioning it should be ok.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...o-stop-daily-b12-for-2-wks.41608/#post-671965

As for the Ado, the sublinguals knocked me out for a long time and I had to go very slowly (huge deficiency) and caused massive potassium demand, so it certainly worked for me, very powerfully. It helped rebuild muscle tissue, very obviously, along with LCF.

 

[Kathevans]

As for the Ado, the sublinguals knocked me out for a long time and I had to go very slowly (huge deficiency) and caused massive potassium demand, so it certainly worked for me, very powerfully. It helped rebuild muscle tissue, very obviously, along with LCF.

Indeed. I'm back on the Adenosyl/Methyl Oil and trying to figure if I need to intersperse it with the Methyl as I did today. I'm using 2-3 squirts a day of the oil, about 18mg of Folate/day and have gotten the L-Carnitine up to 1/4 tablet 5x a day. Amazing how exhausted it makes me... But that means better sleep, too. Not ideal, but better! You may recall that I have the muscle wasting and pain caused by exertion that lasts days. I have to be careful what I do/lift, etc.

I'm forgetting how much LCF you're taking now or even--and I have looked but have only seen a comment by @stridor who said he had overdone it--what the recommended dose is. How high do we titrate? I have seen info on the web that says more than 3 grams (I think) can lead to arterosclerosis, though it may be that the study this is based on wasn't that good...

Now it is the LCF that is my most limiting factor, it seems. Maybe. I keep staring at the symptoms list on "Methylation and Healing" and trying to understand what symptom is related to what supplement...and how a particular supplement might only function with enough of another. And so on and so forth. Remember Freddd's post that says Folate is dependent on Methyl B-12; and Adenosyl B-12 is dependent on Folate, and on and on with each of the DLQ?

Ultimately it seems, it's all about how each works in our own body and what we need to support and further the healing properties of each one.

I am certainly Thankful I found this site. The discoveries take patience, but there is a sense of forward movement.

Happy Thanksgiving, all.

 

[Athene*]

Sounds good @Kathevans Glad things are going well. The LCF dose @Freddd uses is 855mg (yielding 500mg). Apparently any more than that seems not to be effective for most people.

I'm having to cut back a bit on the Ado and LCF and a couple of other things temporarily because I've been needing huge amounts of potassium (4,500mg as opposed to previously around 3,000mg) and insomnia. It's been going on since I began vitamin D and calcium and pantetheine.

I got a cortisol test back from the doctor's and it's massively raised. This is from someone who was on hydrocortisone for two years for unexplained adrenal insufficiency up to about a year ago! I weaned off it last year.

I'm glad my adrenals are working again, but I need to calm them down now and the potassium need has gone crazy from it all so I'm slowing things down for a bit with the potassium users I'm taking.

I have a feeling the pantetheine is the main culprit so I'm going to lower the dose or take none. Funnily enough one of your old posts had a very useful link which included really good info from Dr Stasha Gominak on vitamin D and pantetheine so thank you! I like her approach, getting right down to the source of our vitamins, hormones etc - lots of great info on the Bs and how they're made by gut bacteria too...

 

[garyfritz]

That video covers some very interesting info! Thanks for the link, Athene*.

 

[alicec]

lots of great info on the Bs and how they're made by gut bacteria too...

Some interesting ideas, particularly about sleep, but I wouldn't place too much confidence in what she says about gut bacteria.

Her understanding is woefully inadequate. Those 4 species she talks about are really the 4 major phyla of gut bacteria which between them contain many, many hundreds of species. Trying to make meaningful comment about gut bacterial function while focussing on the phylum level is like trying to understand human differences by considering vertebrates.

She doesn't understand what she is talking about.

Also there is plenty of evidence that gut bacteria produce vitamins but virtually none that we, the host, benefit from these vitamins in any meaningful sense. Probably this is simply because our absorptive mechanisms are in the small intestine while the vast bulk of bacteria are much further away in the colon.

There may be some uptake from the colon by mechanisms that we don't understand but there is no evidence that it is significant.

If it were, we wouldn't need to obtain vitamins from our food.

 

[alicec]

but I need to calm them down now and the potassium need has gone crazy from it all so I'm slowing things down for a bit with the potassium users I'm taking.

I have a feeling the pantetheine is the main culprit

I've had a similar experience, in that cortisol has gone from low to high over a couple of years.

I thought I had the potassium problem fixed and had even stopped supplementing it because it was upsetting my gut even in low doses and I felt fine without it. Recently it has reemerged in a different form but very gradually so I didn't even recognise it at first. Interestingly I have been supplementing fairly high doses of pantotheine for some time.

It didn't appear to be problematic but gradually I have run into serious problems and almost ground to a halt. High dose B vitamins in general and not just pantotheine (all of which at least initially were very helpful), as well as messing with thyroid hormone, have finally driven me into collapse. I have stopped all B vitamin supplementation for a while, even B12 and folate which have been so helpful in the past.

Adding potassium back is certainly helping a lot though I don't know yet if that's the only issue.

It's a never ending roller coaster ride.

 

[Kathevans]

It's a never ending roller coaster ride.

Just yesterday I wrote a post that ended with me feeling weary of this methylation merry-go-round. It's not that much fun, this particular amusement park...!

 

[Athene*]

I've had a similar experience, in that cortisol has gone from low to high over a couple of years.

I thought I had the potassium problem fixed and had even stopped supplementing it because it was upsetting my gut even in low doses and I felt fine without it. Recently it has reemerged in a different form but very gradually so I didn't even recognise it at first. Interestingly I have been supplementing fairly high doses of pantotheine for some time.

It didn't appear to be problematic but gradually I have run into serious problems and almost ground to a halt. High dose B vitamins in general and not just pantotheine (all of which at least initially were very helpful), as well as messing with thyroid hormone, have finally driven me into collapse. I have stopped all B vitamin supplementation for a while, even B12 and folate which have been so helpful in the past.

Adding potassium back is certainly helping a lot though I don't know yet if that's the only issue.

I hope things improve for you. It's a never ending roller coaster ride.

It isn't easy. And I've just seen my magnesium test result yesterday and I'm not even in range. At least it explains why the last few weeks have been so bad with insomnia and fatigue. My vitamin D helped me so much at first but now it's depleted my magnesium so I'm cutting back on D and upping magnesium. Since I lowered D a few days ago I finally got 6 hours straight through last night. I thought I would crack up last week - 3 hours sleep over six days. Today I didn't need such massive potassium either. Hoping to get down to my normal of 3K by next week.

I can't really feel too excited about finding out about this magnesium. It's just one more insufficiency after another. I wouldn't mind that so much if it wasn't so difficult and sometimes just by chance that we find which insufficiency it is. It can go on for weeks, or more, before we realise. It can be difficult to get enough tests and to get tested often enough so really it's a huge challenge filling all these wells of insufficiencies.

I do have a better quality of life now than I did before I started supplementing two years ago. I have no pain anymore (except when the D went too high for my magnesium levels) where before I ached all day long. The fatigue is nowhere near as bad. It's the PEM that remains a challenge though I can do things around the house at least and before I couldn't do a thing except lie in bed, in pain all over.

 

[Athene*]

Some interesting ideas, particularly about sleep, but I wouldn't place too much confidence in what she says about gut bacteria.

Her understanding is woefully inadequate. Those 4 species she talks about are really the 4 major phyla of gut bacteria which between them contain many, many hundreds of species. Trying to make meaningful comment about gut bacterial function while focussing on the phylum level is like trying to understand human differences by considering vertebrates.

She doesn't understand what she is talking about.

Also there is plenty of evidence that gut bacteria produce vitamins but virtually none that we, the host, benefit from these vitamins in any meaningful sense. Probably this is simply because our absorptive mechanisms are in the small intestine while the vast bulk of bacteria are much further away in the colon.

There may be some uptake from the colon by mechanisms that we don't understand but there is no evidence that it is significant.

If it were, we wouldn't need to obtain vitamins from our food.

You're correct and she admits to having limited knowledge since she's not a gastroenterologist but at least she's prepared to think outside her remit somewhat without pretending to be an expert. Potentially dangerous to go outside her field but with health issues that are chronic and unresponsive like mine I'm prepared to try anything. I would hope with an acute neurological problem such as brain injury she would put on her neurologist's hat, so to speak and use tried and tested methods.

I came across this article on vitamin D's effect on gut bacteria.

Effects of high doses of vitamin D3 on mucosa‑associated gut microbiome varies between regions of the human gastrointestinal tract

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00394-015-0966-2

This recent study used almost 10,000iu (980 IU/kg bodyweight daily) for the first month followed by 70 IU/kg bodyweight thereafter. The key being to end up with 25(OH)D levels at/above 125nmol/l 50ng/ml which allows cholecalciferol to remain present in tissue in significant amounts and which enable the upregulation of cathelicidin as when and where required to deal with pathogens like H Pylori and keep toxic material out of the bloodstream.

 

[Athene*]

That video covers some very interesting info! Thanks for the link, Athene*.

Glad it was of some use. It helped me to think about my vitamin D again and it turns out that 5K daily was driving me into a magnesium deficient state. Luckily the hospital tested magnesium as part of a standard bone profile. The lab I usually use doesn't test magnesium. I realise it's only serum magnesium, which isn't fully accurate, still I feel it's relevant when it's not even in range. I was taking too much pantetheine for my needs as well. It's all a bit of a challenge right now, hope you're doing well.