THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING

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It was precisely the lack of MB12, just one mg slowed my heart rate and allowed me to sleep. Unfortunately the next day was a disaster as I completely slowed down the whole system. The same thing happened with too much AdenoB12 it caused me a strong Edema and I realized them that I was on methyltrap and I needed methylfolate again ... at the moment I set it at 7.5mg 2
times a day each time after 10mg of MB12.
Adenob12 always causes strong methyltrap for me too, when taken 3 days in a row. Once a week, doesn't cause methyltrap. With your doses of methylfolate and mb12, you would most definitely need supplemental potassium I guess. How much potassium are you taking if any?
 
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Yep, I break it into 2 doses of 10mg, started with smaller doses.
But I vary it now & skip doses here and there since reading how Fred did that to encourage more Li receptors. Same with b12.
Do bear in mind I may need more lithium than you due to genetics or environment- I just mentioned in another comment re heavily fluoridated water in this country.

Having said that, the Li doses I took for last 3.5 years really got the copper working and that in turn enabled me to tolerate B-right doses of b1 b2 & b3, which destroyed me before! And since that happened I'm really seeing huge improvements.

And I can at last tolerate vitamin D3.
Also just in recent weeks I have lost all the horrible water retention in tummy & legs that stubbornly remained throughout the 6 years on the protocol. It used to look so wrong and unhealthy on a slight frame. I have a normal shape again (and no sock marks!).
My dark hair growing back with the lithium & copper intake was a real surprise after 25 or so years of white. It's one if the more trivial happenings of my ongoing recovery but it gives me a fantastic psychological boost: a daily visual confirmation I'm on the right road.

I'm always worried about advising others re doses of anything though.
We're all so different. It's so hard to know isn't it? And as Fred always reminds people it's combinations of supplements and in the necessary order.
Just to read about your health improvements especially dark hair after 25years kind of gives me a psychological boost🙂 happy for you!

And have you ever tried the b12oils from Australia? Many people on this forum consider the oils a great alternative to shots and extremely more powerful than sublinguals. This Australian person has his own protocol which some people have success with. But I'm going to stick with Fred's protocol and just use the oil in place of sublinguals and see what difference it is going to make(yet to order, just thinking about it). Since you had problem with shots, maybe you can try them too. But if you are already doing great on sublinguals now that your TCR-li is built up, you may just continue with sublinguals and save some money.
 

Methyl90

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Adenob12 always causes strong methyltrap for me too, when taken 3 days in a row. Once a week, doesn't cause methyltrap. With your doses of methylfolate and mb12, you would most definitely need supplemental potassium I guess. How much potassium are you taking if any?
They say serum levels don't matter ... I've always had 4.3 in the last year. Intracellular levels of potassium in the urine are probably more accurate or there are two other tests that now elude me but rarer. I have never had spasms or cramps since I started methylation ... not even constipation or paralyzed ileus. I mistakenly attributed the air hunger to the decrease in potassium instead it is the decrease of MB12. In my case, migraines accompanied by severe exhaustion are a primary sign of low potassium content ... I only accused it once. Potassium is only from foods now.


Allow me to edit and update the post.

As for Adeno I took 10mg for 3 days and like you I had the very potent metiltrap.

Today I restarted the titration of methylfolate 7.5mg POST 10mg of MB12 in single dose ... wow my mind cleared and the group 3 refeeding symptoms disappeared.

I ask you all if you have encountered any skeletal anomalies in your life ... Has Fred ever talked about one side of the body being more developed than the other? I'm talking about both bones and muscles.
I have only read about the rotation of the neck reversing the normal curvature after years of deficiency ... and this on me is evident in addition to the predominant left side of the body.

When my health permits, I work with a chiropractor on alignment and a massage therapist.

I hope that by starting methylation on a regular basis and without START AND STOP I can fix these things too.

And when does the healing begin with the muscles starting to grow as we know it's time to move on to avoid a subsequent methylation block? A subject sees that in the morning he takes B12 and methylfolate has big signs of healing and maybe he settles down taking that dose every morning and realizes that he is slowing down ... This is to say it is always better to continue with the doses several times a day without increasing the mg? Or if you stable go on the rise?

Thank you all.

@reallyconfused @Athene* @Freddd
 
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Athene*

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Which of you has one side of the body more developed than the other?
I had more muscle wasting on left side especially around left hip. It's slowly improving, especially over last few months.
Before I started the protocol I had agonising sciatic nerve pain from just below that area and shooting down my leg into my foot. It was one of the first nerve pains to heal but the muscle building has taken longer.
Strangely my husband also had visible muscle wasting on left upper arm compared with right upper arm. He got 'frozen shoulder' on that side too and lost mobility there. GP gave him saline injections & physio which didn't help (and cost a fortune!).
All completely fixed after a few months of daily MeCbl.
My repair is taking a lot longer but getting there.
 

Athene*

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Just to read about your health improvements especially dark hair after 25years kind of gives me a psychological boost🙂 happy for you!

And have you ever tried the b12oils from Australia? Many people on this forum consider the oils a great alternative to shots and extremely more powerful than sublinguals. This Australian person has his own protocol which some people have success with. But I'm going to stick with Fred's protocol and just use the oil in place of sublinguals and see what difference it is going to make(yet to order, just thinking about it). Since you had problem with shots, maybe you can try them too. But if you are already doing great on sublinguals now that your TCR-li is built up, you may just continue with sublinguals and save some money.
Unfortunately I had a bad experience with the b12 oil. I didn't realise at the time but I went into severe methyltrap for several months while using it. I needed the huge dose injections to keep the blood level up. The oils didn't get the level up where I needed it.
Having said that, the oil could possibly work for somebody who has enough lithium to use/ recycle it. I don't want to risk it again though. I also got some hydroxycobalamin symptoms (scalp & face acne) from it. Again, HCbl might be OK for some but at the time I could only use MeCbl. I'm not sure I'll ever try Hcbl even if I am lithium replete.

Greg's recommendations for supplements didn't help me. He's a helpful person and did his best for me, but in my case it got me nowhere. It may work for others who were perhaps less disabled by b12 deficiency i.e. not deficient for decades (eg misdiagnosed for decades as I was).
For example he has specific recommendations for selenium and molybdenum: selenite as far as I remember and molybdate.
I got much worse using those. For some reason my gut absorbs selenomethionine very well, but selenite hardly at all.

I improved and got atp working again within 2 days of switching back to selenomethionine.
Same happened with molybdate vs chelated molybdenum.

Again, in my case, there have been severe longterm nutritional deficiencies for many decades and who knows what that does to nutrient pathways. For me, Fred's basic brands of those minerals worked perfectly well.
 
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Unfortunately I had a bad experience with the b12 oil. I didn't realise at the time but I went into severe methyltrap for several months while using it. I needed the huge dose injections to keep the blood level up. The oils didn't get the level up where I needed it.
Having said that, the oil could possibly work for somebody who has enough lithium to use/ recycle it. I don't want to risk it again though. I also got some hydroxycobalamin symptoms (scalp & face acne) from it. Again, HCbl might be OK for some but at the time I could only use MeCbl. I'm not sure I'll ever try Hcbl even if I am lithium replete.

Greg's recommendations for supplements didn't help me. He's a helpful person and did his best for me, but in my case it got me nowhere. It may work for others who were perhaps less disabled by b12 deficiency i.e. not deficient for decades (eg misdiagnosed for decades as I was).
For example he has specific recommendations for selenium and molybdenum: selenite as far as I remember and molybdate.
I got much worse using those. For some reason my gut absorbs selenomethionine very well, but selenite hardly at all.

I improved and got atp working again within 2 days of switching back to selenomethionine.
Same happened with molybdate vs chelated molybdenum.

Again, in my case, there have been severe longterm nutritional deficiencies for many decades and who knows what that does to nutrient pathways. For me, Fred's basic brands of those minerals worked perfectly well.
Wow... Thanks Athene for warning me! I just placed an order with Greg, and he said shipping to India is suspended due to covid. I said I receive lot of stuffs from US/UK. Then he said he will ship the bottle to US/UK, and I should ask someone to ship it to India?!!!! I was like "ok, but who will pay for the bottle's world trip?" 😀 now after reading your experience I totally lost interest. Actually I was interested in it because it seemed to come in a shiny metal container highly protected from light, so I thought it will be stable upon shipment. Your experience tells otherwise! Maybe the mb12 got damaged by light even before it was packed?!! Actually I was using seeking health's liposomal methylb12 which was amazing! They are nano sized liposomes which appeared to get to brain in my experience. I didn't find such a response with sublinguals or injections! But I never did 30mg/per day of injections due to financial reasons. Seeking health stopped the liposomal mb12 product. So I was thinking to give this oils a try. Dropped the idea after reading your post. Hydroxyb12 gives worst methyltrap for me too, keeping me bedridden for days. I will check for some other liposomal product.

Reg injections, I got some powder mb12 from UK which I used to mixed with saline(injection grade) and inject using insulin syringe. I could do only 500mcg/day and it wasn't useful much.
 

Methyl90

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What is wheezing due to? It happened to me last night accompanied by paralysis.

It looked like some sort of asthma without the symptoms of low B12, or something related to glutathione formation due to a lack of specific cofactors (selenium or zinc perhaps?). It was almost an anaphylactic shock to be honest but I was well aware that that whistle was telling me .... hey man I'm missing something on board. Let me know guys ❤️. PS: I ate white rice in the evening after not consuming it for a long time.
 
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Athene*

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Wow... Thanks Athene for warning me! I just placed an order with Greg, and he said shipping to India is suspended due to covid. I said I receive lot of stuffs from US/UK. Then he said he will ship the bottle to US/UK, and I should ask someone to ship it to India?!!!! I was like "ok, but who will pay for the bottle's world trip?" 😀 now after reading your experience I totally lost interest. Actually I was interested in it because it seemed to come in a shiny metal container highly protected from light, so I thought it will be stable upon shipment. Your experience tells otherwise! Maybe the mb12 got damaged by light even before it was packed?!! Actually I was using seeking health's liposomal methylb12 which was amazing! They are nano sized liposomes which appeared to get to brain in my experience. I didn't find such a response with sublinguals or injections! But I never did 30mg/per day of injections due to financial reasons. Seeking health stopped the liposomal mb12 product. So I was thinking to give this oils a try. Dropped the idea after reading your post. Hydroxyb12 gives worst methyltrap for me too, keeping me bedridden for days. I will check for some other liposomal product.

Reg injections, I got some powder mb12 from UK which I used to mixed with saline(injection grade) and inject using insulin syringe. I could do only 500mcg/day and it wasn't useful much.
I can only give my experience but to be fair others have claimed great benefits from the oils.
The b12 powder - if it's Oxford Biosciences, then that's the one I've been using for approx 5 years, at high doses, trying to get as near as possible to Fred's. It always worked for me at those high doses i.e. 7.5mg 4 times daily and it fixed all the nerve damage and word finding difficulties, tinnitus & other neuro symptoms and many other issues.
The sustained energy only happened recently after copper & other items as mentioned in recent posts. I did get periods of high energy over the last 5/6 years but would always crash after a few days.
It's been a long road getting the protocol to work because of length of time without b12 & folate causing extensive damage.

I'm no longer sure whether the sublinguals are better for me or not. It could have been a bad batch of b12 powder and my new batch seems to be fine again.
Or, there could have been nothing wrong with the batch and the new B-Right Complex is what's really making the difference.
I no longer get a noticeable boost from the sublinguals. I just have this new sustained energy every day and that's really amazing for me. It's the same now if I omit the sublinguals and just use injections.
I've dropped one injection every second day and hope to drop more. It's been a life saver, but horrendously expensive at those doses.
I actually started my husband on the b12 powder/saline injections at 500mcg daily when he was quite ill. He only improved on 1,500mcg daily and the improvements were dramatic week by week. After a few months 1000mcg was enough and now he just has one or two weekly, sometimes he forgets for a week and is fine. If only the rest of us could get better so fast.
 
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Athene*

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What is wheezing due to? It happened to me last night accompanied by paralysis.

It looked like some sort of asthma without the symptoms of low B12, or something related to glutathione formation due to a lack of specific cofactors (selenium or zinc perhaps?). It was almost an anaphylactic shock to be honest but I was well aware that that whistle was telling me .... hey man I'm missing something on board. Let me know guys ❤️. PS: I ate white rice in the evening after not consuming it for a long time.
I wheeze and cough if anything causes my folate to drop. As soon as I get my folate working again the wheeze and cough disappears fast. Adequate folate is necessary for epithelial lung tissue.
For decades I was misdiagnosed and treated for asthma with steroids, inhalers etc.
All asthma and cough symptoms disappeared after I got methylfolate & MeCbl into my system.
For some reason white rice causes some kind of methyltrap every single time I eat it. I guess it must be high in folic. Not sure, but it's really frustrating because I'm coeliac and rice should be ok. I make sure to get a gluten free brand that other coeliac people are fine with, but it makes no difference.
Paralysis would worry me, if it was me. For me it would mean I need potassium. It always happened in my left leg and sometimes in my hands on waking (particularly when I was hypothyroid, for which selenium helped a lot).
You mentioned your serum potassium was 4.3.
I don't feel well unless it's 4.5.
Having said that my husband's serum potassium was always 4.3 and he never needed potassium or had any low potassium symptoms.
It's difficult to advise. Maybe check Fred's symptom lists?
 
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Athene*

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Does anybody know which kind of yeast we're supposed to avoid? See Fred's answer to someone below and he's mentioned elsewhere also avoiding added yeast in vitamins.

If I have to avoid all yeast (as well as folic, whey, wheat & gluten (coeliac) I'll find it impossible to eat much at all.

Fred talking about yeast here, says to avoid it (among other things):
'...folic acid, folinic acid (related folates and folinates ie calcium folate of folinate), veggie b-complex, green drinks, vitamins added yeast, whey, glutathione, NAC (in any of multiple forms), vitamin drinks.'
 
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Athene*

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Is yeast in bread OK? I can't find any gluten-free products without yeast!

He mentions 'nutritional yeast' here post #5). Not sure what that is.

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...uartet-and-other-nutrients.27482/#post-419216

'Vitamin enriched cereals like Special K, raisin bran, baby cereals, baby formula, adult formula (Ensure), vitamin drinks (energy drinks), Instant Breakfast, enriched breads, nutritional yeast, protein bars, all sorts of things. Some things that would be candy has vitamins added so that it has a nutrient ratio that disguises that it is candy. There is al lot hidden in our foods.'
 

Athene*

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I meant to say, in case it's of use to anyone else- I have far less episodes of low folate since I more consciously omitted whey a few weeks ago.
Luckily I can tolerate a particular brand of strained protein yoghurt (most of whey removed), a small pot, so I have some calcium in my diet. I can tolerate butter too.

OK, back to yeast. So now I know what nutritional yeast is and that it's often fortified with b12 (I guess cyanocobalamin?).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutritional_yeast

How about bread made with yeast though?
And some gluten-free bread is fortified with yeast made from vitamin d..?

Is that OK for us to eat?
 
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Freddd

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@Athene*

I am sorry for the confusion. As has been noticed here that there are a variety of Lithium labels that were confusing and some articles were confusing the mineral Lithium Orotate with the elemental Lithium. I looked at many bottle labels and the confusions continued there.

A further source of confusion is some people confuse ionic high dose (hundreds of mg) side effects and dangers with micro-nutrient mineral non-ionic lithium minerals.

With all the lithium tartrate and/or Ortotate labels now giving 5 mg of elemental Lithium as the does I have met people who need < 1 mg of Lithium to over 20 mg.for a daily dose. Our water might have it. Our foods might have it. We also get fluoride that can poison the catalytic Lithium. Further the serum half-life changes as the TCR-Li build up in the kidney. For instance for me it took 5 years to go from 3x10mg MeCbl injections and my urine would be pink in in hour. After 5 years of building TCR-Li I can take mine 10 mg injection and there is none excreted visibly in the first 24 hours and then it starts coming out slowly. It takes the Deadlock Quartet plus all minerals plus :Lithium to grow TCR-Li. as far as I can tell. The same can occur with 45 minute sublingual MeCbl or AdoCbl of say 10 mg. Seeing the change in serum halflife is the hard proof growing TCR-Li in the kidneys. As this improves various aspects of homeostasis improve , for instance electrolytes.
Glutathione can be a killer. It causes catastrophic B12 deficiency pouring it out ot the urine 5-10 times faster than an ordinary dose, whatever it is for you.\

Glutathione, folic acid, folinic acid, HyCbl, CyCbl and veggie folates can all directly cause methyltrap or partial folate deficiency. and cause changes toi serum half life of MeCbl or AdoCbl.

If there are other questions that need specifically answered I will come back and answer them.. I have prostate cancer right now and am trying to help my oncologist understand CBL-C disease and how it impacts on prostate cancer treatment. Be well all.
 
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Athene*

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@Athene*

I am sorry for the confusion. As has been noticed here that there are a variety of Lithium labels that were confusing and some articles were confusing the mineral Lithium Orotate with the elemental Lithium. I looked at many bottle labels and the confusions continued there.

A further source of confusion is some people confuse ionic high dose (hundreds of mg) side effects and dangers with micro-nutrient mineral non-ionic lithium minerals.

With all the lithium tartrate and/or Ortotate labels now giving 5 mg of elemental Lithium as the does I have met people who need < 1 mg of Lithium to over 20 mg.for a daily dose. Our water might have it. Our foods might have it. We also get fluoride that can poison the catalytic Lithium. Further the serum half-life changes as the TCR-Li build up in the kidney. For instance for me it took 5 years to go from 3x10mg MeCbl injections and my urine would be pink in in hour. After 5 years of building TCR-Li I can take mine 10 mg injection and there is none excreted visibly in the first 24 hours and then it starts coming out slowly. It takes the Deadlock Quartet plus all minerals plus :Lithium to grow TCR-Li. as far as I can tell. The same can occur with 45 minute sublingual MeCbl or AdoCbl of say 10 mg. Seeing the change in serum halflife is the hard proof growing TCR-Li in the kidneys. As this improves various aspects of homeostasis improve , for instance electrolytes.
Glutathione can be a killer. It causes catastrophic B12 deficiency pouring it out ot the urine 5-10 times faster than an ordinary dose, whatever it is for you.\

Glutathione, folic acid, folinic acid, HyCbl, CyCbl and veggie folates can all directly cause methyltrap or partial folate deficiency. and cause changes toi serum half life of MeCbl or AdoCbl.

If there are other questions that need specifically answered I will come back and answer them.. I have prostate cancer right now and am trying to help my oncologist understand CBL-C disease and how it impacts on prostate cancer treatment. Be well all.
Thanks so much for taking the time to respond, Fred. Very best of luck to you with your oncologist.

I'm one of those who needs 20mg daily of lithium orotate. I'm seeing great improvements now after nearly 4 years of lithium orotate. Thanks for leading the way on this.

If you get a moment can you clarify the yeast question I asked above -
you've mentioned a few times to avoid yeast.

Is it only nutritional yeast (because it can contain cyanocobalamin) or other yeast you're referring to?

I'm coeliac and find it hard to get gluten-free products that are also yeast free.

Many of the products have yeast made from vitamin d.

I assume that's OK?

How about bread or soup etc that lists 'yeast' in the ingredients?
 
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Methyl90

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@Athene* As for me, at the moment I eat peel-less steamed potatoes in slow cooking or I boil them knowing that I certainly lose potassium and other minerals compared to traditional cooking. With boiling, however, I can eliminate excess oxalates. As for the Italian market, I also tried organic white rice without any benefits ... I have no problems with gluten. As for the whey, I still can't draw conclusions despite always consuming the same brand. I consume 200gr of Greek Yogurt the famous fage every morning, eliminating the whey that forms (liquid on the surface). Also in the morning I consume 300ml of skimmed milk. I find that excess calcium causes high potassium symptoms as far as the frequency is concerned but without episodes of asthma. Again, as far as yeast is concerned, I remember having always used fresh beer, not noticing particular problems even with white flour when I was making pizza dough. Everything is so variable always considering that the more you go on and the more you heal there is therefore more tolerance. In MY current state, limiting folate from vegetables helps but I can't know in the future. Taking methylfolate before meal with folate also helps but I feel I am better off taking MB12 first and not the other way around as I have read someone do. Same thing with AdenoB12 ... Right after that I take methylfolate to avoid. As you know very well the dynamics of each of us change every thousandth of a second and programming in methylation is a leap in the dark ... at least for me it was. The minerals between agonists and antagonists are unpredictable as we react to a physical, emotional, mental, environmental stress ... It's really complicated.

I have noticed that the polyphenols / flavonoids in cocoa especially pure bitter cocoa create some imbalance for me ... as if they drain the B12 / Folate out of the system. In theory they have no added folic acid but perhaps a bite of natural folinic acid. From what I've read antioxidants create a kind of slowing down of methylation ... and that's what I want to avoid at the moment so I guess I'll have to cut them down despite the great properties.
 
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Methyl90

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I wheeze and cough if anything causes my folate to drop. As soon as I get my folate working again the wheeze and cough disappears fast. Adequate folate is necessary for epithelial lung tissue.
For decades I was misdiagnosed and treated for asthma with steroids, inhalers etc.
All asthma and cough symptoms disappeared after I got methylfolate & MeCbl into my system.
For some reason white rice causes some kind of methyltrap every single time I eat it. I guess it must be high in folic. Not sure, but it's really frustrating because I'm coeliac and rice should be ok. I make sure to get a gluten free brand that other coeliac people are fine with, but it makes no difference.
Paralysis would worry me, if it was me. For me it would mean I need potassium. It always happened in my left leg and sometimes in my hands on waking (particularly when I was hypothyroid, for which selenium helped a lot).
You mentioned your serum potassium was 4.3.
I don't feel well unless it's 4.5.
Having said that my husband's serum potassium was always 4.3 and he never needed potassium or had any low potassium symptoms.
It's difficult to advise. Maybe check Fred's symptom lists?
Thanks ... Now everything is much clearer ❤️👍💪
 

Methyl90

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If it can be useful to you I have discovered that Vitamin A (I have to ascertain which form) has an affinity in the folate cycle, favoring absorption. In addition, dairy products, even if they do not have harmful folate, can still slow down the absorption due to ANTIFOLATE antibodies ... so there is both whey and this type of antibody. Ferritin, UV, vitamin D, B6 are other cofactors that favor an efficient folate cycle. I remember reading that limiting methionine also favors this. As these are feedback mechanisms, there is little point in limiting protein intake. I believe that 1kg of potatoes per day is favoring the depletion of methylfolate ... I will have to reduce them or increase the methylfolate to 21mg per day in 3 separate doses.
 

Methyl90

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I edited the thread as I solved regarding methylfolate, I was looking for a 15mg brand.

I wanted an opinion if you want to unbalance yourself.

Today I noticed that physical exertion increases the refeeding symptoms of group 3 but it is not potassium, I believe that the increase in histamine and inflammatory cytokinins favors the expulsion of methylfolate and / or B12 ... still not clear to me.

When I came home I took the third dose of 7.5mg methylfolate and right after that 5mg sublingual MB12 ... usually this dose in the morning makes a big difference but post exercise it's like my body needs more.

Unfortunately, the muscles still do not grow and the watery fat persists. I've had moments when muscle tone seemed more constant ... but it was an illusion.

At the moment methylfolate is 21mg in 3 separate doses while MB12 is between 20 and 30mg. Adeno once a week between 10 and 20mg.
I am not integrating carnitine fumarate and lithium which I have currently suspended because it dramatically increases methylation even just 300mcg. More than 15 years of survival are starting to be felt and I suspect that I really need huge doses to get back to life.

Thank you all.

@Athene*
 
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Athene*

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Whatever works for you, but I guess you're aware that Fred advises methylfolate first, then let it get into your bloodstream from your gut (approx 30 minutes). Then put sublingual b12 under top lip (or inject b12).

His reasoning is that by doing it this way you allow to folate and b12 to meet at the same time & this enables both to be more efficiently carried to where they need to be.

I also need more b12 after exercise. If I take it straight after exercise it seems to help more than beforehand. (If I go out for 20 minute walk I usually take a litte folate first then a few sublingual b12s after the walk).

It took over 5 years for me to lose the water retention and build muscle. Unfortunately I didn't know about lithium Fred hadn't discovered it yet. If I'd had the lithium from early on in the protocol like @reallyconfused for example, I might have had a much faster recovery.

Lithium has been the game-changer for me. Apart from the b12 working so much better now, the electrolyte dysfunction settling down has made a big difference to my life.
 
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Whatever works for you, but I guess you're aware that Fred advises methylfolate first, then let it get into your bloodstream from your gut (approx 30 minutes). Then put sublingual b12 under top lip (or inject b12).

His reasoning is that by doing it this way you allow to folate and b12 to meet at the same time & this enables both to be more efficiently carried to where they need to be.

I also need more b12 after exercise. If I take it straight after exercise it seems to help more than beforehand. (If I go out for 20 minute walk I usually take a litte folate first then a few sublingual b12s after the walk).

It took over 5 years for me to lose the water retention and build muscle. Unfortunately I didn't know about lithium Fred hadn't discovered it yet. If I'd had the lithium from early on in the protocol like @reallyconfused for example, I might have had a much faster recovery.

Lithium has been the game-changer for me. Apart from the b12 working so much better now, the electrolyte dysfunction settling down has made a big difference to my life.
Thank you @Athene* , @Methyl90 .. Learned a lot from you guys!! Keep posting your experiences.