THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING

[reallyconfused]

PS
@reallyconfused
I'll edit above.
The B Right is Nicotinic Acid. Everything else I said stands.

Thanks Athene for clearing things up quickly! So it's not zinc that caused copper deficiency... But it's refeeding syndrome as Fred explains. So you seem to need almost half copper as much as zinc?!! That's interesting.

 

[reallyconfused]

Thanks Athene for clearing things up quickly! So it's not zinc that caused copper deficiency... But it's refeeding syndrome as Fred explains. So you seem to need almost half copper as much as zinc?!! That's interesting.

@Athene what copper you use? Same source naturals one copper sebacate Fred suggests? Each tablet has 3mg elemental copper.. How many do you take?

 

[Athene*]

Thanks Athene for clearing things up quickly! So it's not zinc that caused copper deficiency... But it's refeeding syndrome as Fred explains. So you seem to need almost half copper as much as zinc?!! That's interesting.

No problem @reallyconfused
I wouldn't be here today without the help of others on this forum, particularly Fred.
Yes re copper it was just as Fred explained, in my case anyway.

I would love to get tested for Cblc disease- the disease that Fred thinks is most likely the cause of his problems.
The worst of my symptoms were late onset, and I had long periods of functioning fine as a child, but I had some classic symptoms shortly after birth, and almost died, was given the last rites, after weeks of 'failure to thrive'.
Was always extremely underweight and had long phases of poor appetite as a kid, and into my 20s and prone to mysterious 'viral' illnesses - aches, pains, severe fatigue for weeks on end, then I'd rally especially if given lots of liver by my granny's insistence! (Ugh! But how right she was!).
Things got worse as the decades went on.
Fred believes his protocol applies just the same to ME & CFS as they're really longterm b12 & folate deficiency issues in his view.

I'm curious- were you diagnosed with ME? I was diagnosed with ME, CFS and Fibromyalgia by two separate rheumatologists and one immunologist who also diagnosed coeliac disease. When a strict coeliac didn't work he suggested more exercise.

My copper/zinc ratio is very odd at the moment, I agree, but only because of a serious copper deficiency induced by methylation and by me leaving it far too long to start taking copper because I was afraid of its potential toxicity.
I only changed my mind when I saw low white cells & had shingles. The copper, with continued b12 etc, cleared it within 10 days and white cells normalised. I didn't take the antivirals they offered.

I intend to go to 3mg copper eventually and about 25-30 zinc. Not sure yet how much zinc I'll settle on. Some say 10:1 ratio others 20:1. I don't want to induce a copper deficiency again via too much zinc intake.

I was scared of high-dose folate too and stayed at low doses for far too long.

The histamine symptoms I mentioned yesterday have disappeared.
I had tried switching folate and carnitine and finally decided to take sublingual b12 (20 of them since yesterday) and I have no symptoms today and plenty of energy.
Now I'm wondering what the hell is wrong with the high-dose b12 injections I'm paying a fortune for.

Did Fred say somewhere it's best to mix different types of methylcobalamin? Is that because sometimes a batch is not fermented properly or something like that?

Now I'm 'really confused' and will have to go searching again.

 

[Athene*]

@Athene what copper you use? Same source naturals one copper sebacate Fred suggests? Each tablet has 3mg elemental copper.. How many do you take?

Yes, that one, or the Solgar chelated one is tolerable for me.
If sebacate I take 3mg x 5 daily (remember this is not without testing! Test every 3 months if taking copper).

First dose 3 x 3mg then later in day
2 x 3mg. I take them as Fred advised - away from anything else, and separate doses, for best absorption. I'm aiming for top end of range as Fred did. I'm due for blood tests soon.

He advises same for lithium orotate: twice daily (10mg) away from anything else.

I can't wait to be finished with this copper refeeding because as you can imagine, you will need to set multiple alarms on your phone.

Bedtime is such a relief, sleep the only escape from refeeding.
I can barely manage it - folate 4 times daily, b12 injections 30 mins later after each folate, potassium & C needs to be 90 mins away from folates (C blocks folate), and multiple other items.

Manual refeeding is a form of torture and Fred must be very tough not only to get through it, but to sit down and analyse the whole system minutely.
I envy most people who simply have to eat their daily meals to keep their cells functioning.

The only hope is that Fred achieved homeostasis so I'm aiming for that.
So far so good.
Today was a good day. No symptoms, plus energy.

 

[Athene*]

PS
I didn't realise there was another user called 'Athene' when I signed up. It was the first name that came to mind.
So then I added an asterisk after mine to differentiate us.
I'm Athene* just in case there's a mix up.

 

[reallyconfused]

No problem @reallyconfused
I wouldn't be here today without the help of others on this forum, particularly Fred.
Yes re copper it was just as Fred explained, in my case anyway.

I would love to get tested for Cblc disease- the disease that Fred thinks is most likely the cause of his problems.
The worst of my symptoms were late onset, and I had long periods of functioning fine as a child, but I had some classic symptoms shortly after birth, and almost died, was given the last rites, after weeks of 'failure to thrive'.
Was always extremely underweight and had long phases of poor appetite as a kid, and into my 20s and prone to mysterious 'viral' illnesses - aches, pains, severe fatigue for weeks on end, then I'd rally especially if given lots of liver by my granny's insistence! (Ugh! But how right she was!).
Things got worse as the decades went on.
Fred believes his protocol applies just the same to ME & CFS as they're really longterm b12 & folate deficiency issues in his view.

I'm curious- were you diagnosed with ME? I was diagnosed with ME, CFS and Fibromyalgia by two separate rheumatologists and one immunologist who also diagnosed coeliac disease. When a strict coeliac didn't work he suggested more exercise.

My copper/zinc ratio is very odd at the moment, I agree, but only because of a serious copper deficiency induced by methylation and by me leaving it far too long to start taking copper because I was afraid of its potential toxicity.
I only changed my mind when I saw low white cells & had shingles. The copper, with continued b12 etc, cleared it within 10 days and white cells normalised. I didn't take the antivirals they offered.

I intend to go to 3mg copper eventually and about 25-30 zinc. Not sure yet how much zinc I'll settle on. Some say 10:1 ratio others 20:1. I don't want to induce a copper deficiency again via too much zinc intake.

I was scared of high-dose folate too and stayed at low doses for far too long.

The histamine symptoms I mentioned yesterday have disappeared.
I had tried switching folate and carnitine and finally decided to take sublingual b12 (20 of them since yesterday) and I have no symptoms today and plenty of energy.
Now I'm wondering what the hell is wrong with the high-dose b12 injections I'm paying a fortune for.

Did Fred say somewhere it's best to mix different types of methylcobalamin? Is that because sometimes a batch is not fermented properly or something like that?

Now I'm 'really confused' and will have to go searching again.

Thank you so much, Athene, for your time. I learned a lot from you today. I will contact you from time to time, if you don't mind. I am an Indian, living in India. Here in India, not much of diagnosis or anything. Just symptoms and medications targeting symptoms. Fred has helped a lot in the past few years. Honestly nothing else helped me except Fred's protocol. I follow his protocol closely except I can't afford CNS penetrative doses of B12. There is no methylb12 in India. I have to get many of the supplements shipped from US/UK and shipping charges+customs makes them very expensive. Lithium establishing homeostasis is my only hope. Hope it happens sometime. My symptoms are more neurological than physical. I can manage everyday life fairly well with lot of brain fog, titannus, fatigue, low energy and lack of interest in anything. First few months on Fred's protocol was like heaven, everything I have dreamed.. Brain fog cleared, lots of energy, happy mood etc I experienced the 'neurological brightening' that Fred describes. It was lovely. Unfortunately years passed and never experienced it again. Still I am now in much better shape than what I was before starting the protocol. Thanks to Fred!! I have great respect for him. Hope he gets well soon.

And regarding your injections, I remember Fred used to take enzymatic therapy b12 sublingual even when he was taking 30mg injections a day. As you said, different mb12, different effects in body was the reason he gives. But after lithium establishes homeostasis, all b12 are the same. How nice that should be. Hope we all get there sometime soon.

Be in good health!!

 

[Methyl90]

Thank you so much, Athene, for your time. I learned a lot from you today. I will contact you from time to time, if you don't mind. I am an Indian, living in India. Here in India, not much of diagnosis or anything. Just symptoms and medications targeting symptoms. Fred has helped a lot in the past few years. Honestly nothing else helped me except Fred's protocol. I follow his protocol closely except I can't afford CNS penetrative doses of B12. There is no methylb12 in India. I have to get many of the supplements shipped from US/UK and shipping charges+customs makes them very expensive. Lithium establishing homeostasis is my only hope. Hope it happens sometime. My symptoms are more neurological than physical. I can manage everyday life fairly well with lot of brain fog, titannus, fatigue, low energy and lack of interest in anything. First few months on Fred's protocol was like heaven, everything I have dreamed.. Brain fog cleared, lots of energy, happy mood etc I experienced the 'neurological brightening' that Fred describes. It was lovely. Unfortunately years passed and never experienced it again. Still I am now in much better shape than what I was before starting the protocol. Thanks to Fred!! I have great respect for him. Hope he gets well soon.

And regarding your injections, I remember Fred used to take enzymatic therapy b12 sublingual even when he was taking 30mg injections a day. As you said, different mb12, different effects in body was the reason he gives. But after lithium establishes homeostasis, all b12 are the same. How nice that should be. Hope we all get there sometime soon.

Be in good health!!

How many mg lithium do you take?

 

[Athene*]

Thank you so much, Athene, for your time. I learned a lot from you today. I will contact you from time to time, if you don't mind. I am an Indian, living in India. Here in India, not much of diagnosis or anything. Just symptoms and medications targeting symptoms. Fred has helped a lot in the past few years. Honestly nothing else helped me except Fred's protocol. I follow his protocol closely except I can't afford CNS penetrative doses of B12. There is no methylb12 in India. I have to get many of the supplements shipped from US/UK and shipping charges+customs makes them very expensive. Lithium establishing homeostasis is my only hope. Hope it happens sometime. My symptoms are more neurological than physical. I can manage everyday life fairly well with lot of brain fog, titannus, fatigue, low energy and lack of interest in anything. First few months on Fred's protocol was like heaven, everything I have dreamed.. Brain fog cleared, lots of energy, happy mood etc I experienced the 'neurological brightening' that Fred describes. It was lovely. Unfortunately years passed and never experienced it again. Still I am now in much better shape than what I was before starting the protocol. Thanks to Fred!! I have great respect for him. Hope he gets well soon.

And regarding your injections, I remember Fred used to take enzymatic therapy b12 sublingual even when he was taking 30mg injections a day. As you said, different mb12, different effects in body was the reason he gives. But after lithium establishes homeostasis, all b12 are the same. How nice that should be. Hope we all get there sometime soon.

Be in good health!!

You too @reallyconfused
Take care.
Ah, yes, I'd forgotten all b12 is the same after homeostasis. Thanks for reminding me. Something to hope for.
Yes, indeed hope we all get there soon.

 

[reallyconfused]

How many mg lithium do you take?

Fred talks about very tiny Microdoses of lithium. 10 to 20mg lithium Orotate which contains around 1mg elemental lithium. Taking more has no benefits according to him. And homeostasis happens very slowly over years... We must have deadlock quartet along with lithium and all other supporting supplements.

Just search fred's posts with keywords "lithium", "Homeostasis".. You will find lot of valuable information.

 

[Methyl90]

Fred talks about very tiny Microdoses of lithium. 10 to 20mg lithium Orotate which contains around 1mg elemental lithium. Taking more has no benefits according to him. And homeostasis happens very slowly over years... We must have deadlock quartet along with lithium and all other supporting supplements.

Just search fred's posts with keywords "lithium", "Homeostasis".. You will find lot of valuable information.

Thanks I found many posts about it but I didn't understand the proportion you are saying. I own a brand that guarantees 130mg of lithium orotate which corresponds to 5mg of elemental lithium ... so I would have to split it at least a quarter to have 1.25mg of elemental lithium. It's correct? I thought Fred was referring to net mg of lithium orotate and not elemental lithium. Can you help me understand? Thanks

 

[reallyconfused]

Thanks I found many posts about it but I didn't understand the proportion you are saying. I own a brand that guarantees 130mg of lithium orotate which corresponds to 5mg of elemental lithium ... so I would have to split it at least a quarter to have 1.25mg of elemental lithium. It's correct? I thought Fred was referring to net mg of lithium orotate and not elemental lithium. Can you help me understand? Thanks

@aquariusgirl ,

It has been a while. "You bet your bippy" in the language of my teens, whatever a bippy is. I've gotten to bedrock. I've had intermittent hypokalemia symptoms all my life in a cycle with periodic folate deficiency.

It about blows me away that lithium reinstates homeostasis I needed to use brute force method of getting B12, in the forms of MeCbl and AdoCbl, into my CNS to keep it from falling apart. From about 2007 to some time last year, I needed 3x10mg (or 4 x 7.5 mg) of MeCbl each day and the healing and better feeling lasted about 8 hours. THe threshold for MeCbl showing up in urine at 2.4 mg sc injection with folic acid at a bit more than 1 hour, 4,2 mg SC injection at 4.2 mg between 1 and 2 hours. I have been tapering the MeCbl. Right now I 'm down to 5 mg once a week and it shows up in the urine at about 12 hours. COB[II] which is what is left after the Lithium strips off ligand is very reactive and is protected and apparently stored such that it is available to the CNS all the time from the TCR-Li. I am hypothesizing here but it's the best I can put together with all the things it does. Also it requires either COB[II] or MeCbl and AdoCbl for the CNS. In the absence of COB[II} both active forms are needed plus the l-methylfolate and the L-carnitine in a body can't make with the body's current deficiencies,.

I tried for 4 or 5 years to get my copper up to a functional level. It started to be absorbed and retained bring my level up over the past almost 2 years, the total time I've been starting and titrating the lithium orotate 5 mg (240 mcg of Li) to 20 mg of Lithium orotate. My liver healed. My hyper responses to all sorts of things have gone away. I'm below 1500 mg of potassium after years of 3-5 grams of potassium. My main deficiency has been lithium needed to make the TCR-Li so I was functionally lacking the TCR-Li and almost couldn't get B12 into my nervous system and making the cobalamin into it's catalyst form. In it's micronutrient forms and amounts it doesn't do the damage the 200-300 mg does of lithium used in the psychiatric and kidney damaging amounts. Instead the kidneys grow a lot of TCR and reclaims and retains the B12 from ending up in the urine before the absorption cycle is finished. All this fits in every bit of journal articles I've read on the subject and all my responses and others with responses. I've never known of anybody going from needing 210 mg a week to 5 mg of MeCbl (and still decreasing) a week and one sublingual dose of AdoCbl that absorbs more now than it ever did before, enough to see it excreted in urine. Also the AdoCbl still has an obvious body effect but not a noticeable CNS effect.

P:art of the problem appears to be that COB[II} isn't self booting. If there isn't any it can't make any more TCR-Li. It turns out to be part of the deadlock quintet rather than quartet. However, brute force gets enough MeCbl/AdoCbl to absorb and gradually grow the TCRE-Li convert other varieties to COB[II] that then can sustain the growth and refresh cycles for the TCR-Li.. No wonder nobody has found this. Everybody was trying to describe B12 in terms that to those of us with certaIn problems appears to be a myth.

I have blood tests each 3 months. After many months shifting all over, they are reaching a desirable balance. My minerals had never been able to all be in balance before. Right now my testosterone went higher than ever before as copper and other things increased and balanced and with my doc we determine what dose changes I need. The changing hormones with genetic problems can be a problem, male or female, and need to be watched and managed.

I still need the same amount of l-methylfolate but it seems to have stopped having to alternate to between Metafolin and Quatrefolic every few months to remain effective. The carnitines don't switch around either any more. They are all the same, no best one. I can't tell the difference between a 5 star MeCbl or a zero star MeCbl. My first shout in my face response was hypokalemia from hell at 6 months of 240 mcg of lithium, when red cell maturing started up hard when I got up to 7000 feet driving over the continental divide. It can happen in hours compared to all other cell forming causes of hypokalemia becasue the young red cells are already there and just need to mature.

Be well.

@Methyl90

Hi methyl90,

Please read the above quote by Fred.. In most of his posts he is referring to "lithium Orotate"... Not much clarity whether 5mg of elemental lithium or lithium Orotate itself. In the above quote he has written clearly 5mg lithium Orotate has 240mcg of elemental lithium. This is the post I first remember reading about lithium from Fred and I assumed that 1mg elemental lithium is sufficient and following the same for 1.5yrs now.

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Cheers!

 

[Methyl90]

@Methyl90

Hi methyl90,

Please read the above quote by Fred.. In most of his posts he is referring to "lithium Orotate"... Not much clarity whether 5mg of elemental lithium or lithium Orotate itself. In the above quote he has written clearly 5mg lithium Orotate has 240mcg of elemental lithium. This is the post I first remember reading about lithium from Fred and I assumed that 1mg elemental lithium is sufficient and following the same for 1.5yrs now.

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Cheers!

Ok, so when he talks about having reached 20mg of Orotate they correspond to 1mg of elementary lithium ... I don't understand if my package has a print error as it specifies that 5mg of lithium orotate are 130mg of elementary lithium. How can it be possible? It is still on sale on eBay if you look at it has a white and green package sent from England. I started with 1/4 of tablet so they should be about only 30mcs of lithium or not 30 mg that it would seem absurd.

 

[Methyl90]

Sorry, I'm confused

 

[reallyconfused]

Ok, so when he talks about having reached 20mg of Orotate they correspond to 1mg of elementary lithium ... I don't understand if my package has a print error as it specifies that 5mg of lithium orotate are 130mg of elementary lithium. How can it be possible? It is still on sale on eBay if you look at it has a white and green package sent from England. I started with 1/4 of tablet so they should be about only 30mcs of lithium or not 30 mg that it would seem absurd.

I think it's the other way around.. 131mg lithium Orotate contains 5 mg elemental lithium. Which means every 26.2mg lithium Orotate will give us 1mg elemental lithium. It relates well(approximately) to Fred's calculation. His initial dose of 240mcg elemental lithium comes from 0.24*26.2=6mg of lithium Orotate (Fred says 5mg).

 

[Athene*]

I've always thought he meant 20mg daily (gradual titration) of elemental lithium split into two separate doses of 10mg each.

I started with Swanson Lithium orotate 5mg capsules split in two. The 5mg is elemental lithium.

I'm now taking 10mg twice daily. I guess it would be considered micro doses in comparison to the lithium used in a psychiatric setting for example.

I've been taking lithium orotate for approx 3.5 years now and this week is the first time I've had a huge response to sublingual b12. Could that mean the lithium receptors in the oral mucosa are replenished? Hopefully.

I've been running around doing things all week - walks, physical jobs in garden, house maintenance stuff before winter, and if I get tired another sublingual gets me going again within minutes.

It's been really unbelievable. I feel years younger!

Oddly I'm not getting the same response from my b12 injections. I dropped the sublinguals for a day and used only injections and I had far less energy. I wonder if that means other lithium receptors have yet to build up?

I just noticed an answer on Quora from Fred by the way which might be of interest to you both. He said he varied the times between injections (he eventually moved away from injections after a while) and he varied the doses of lithium orotate in order to make more lithium receptors, (almost as if forcing more to build up by mini starvations, at least that's how I read it).
PS
I hope I'm wrong about the doses - it'd be a lot cheaper to take less.

 

[reallyconfused]

I've always thought he meant 20mg daily (gradual titration) of elemental lithium split into two separate doses of 10mg each.

I started with Swanson Lithium orotate 5mg capsules split in two. The 5mg is elemental lithium.

I'm now taking 10mg twice daily. I guess it would be considered micro doses in comparison to the lithium used in a psychiatric setting for example.

I've been taking lithium orotate for approx 3.5 years now and this week is the first time I've had a huge response to sublingual b12. Could that mean the lithium receptors in the oral mucosa are replenished? Hopefully.

I've been running around doing things all week - walks, physical jobs in garden, house maintenance stuff before winter, and if I get tired another sublingual gets me going again within minutes.

It's been really unbelievable. I feel years younger!

Oddly I'm not getting the same response from my b12 injections. I dropped the sublinguals for a day and used only injections and I had far less energy. I wonder if that means other lithium receptors have yet to build up?

I just noticed an answer on Quora from Fred by the way which might be of interest to you both. He said he varied the times between injections (he eventually moved away from injections after a while) and he varied the doses of lithium orotate in order to make more lithium receptors, (almost as if forcing more to build up by mini starvations, at least that's how I read it).
PS
I hope I'm wrong about the doses - it'd be a lot cheaper to take less.

Hi Athene,

Now I am confused about the doses too!! Hope Fred @Freddd himself could clarify this! (Sorry Fred for disturbing you.. When you get to time to see this, please do clarify on lithium doses in terms of elemental lithium)

Athene, but since you have been taking 20mg elemental lithium for 3.5years it's very likely that your receptors have been replenished!! Congratulations👏👏 but what about those injections? Maybe they are degraded by light exposure or something?! Injections are supposed to be working with or without receptors, aren't they?

And yes, I remember reading that post by Fred where he says we have to "titrate the time between mb12"... Like moving from twice daily to once daily then twice a week, then once a week, then once every two weeks etc... By doing so we encourage our system to grow more TCR-li.... Hope you are now in that stage!

I started with copper supplements 1.7mg(first time ever trying copper) and had extreme reactions immediately.. Severe mood swings, extreme brain fog, stomach irritation, burning sensation in feet and fingers!!!! All vanished after 8 hours.. Tried again next day, exactly same thing happened!! I remember Fred once said "any nutrient that causes immediate reaction is probably most lacking.. Any nutrient that causes bad reactions after few days is mostly due to refeeding syndrome"... So, I am so much deficient in copper? Scary.. Got to somehow find a way to take it.

 

[Athene*]

Could be light exposure, I wondered about that alright. I'm fed up about it if it's the case because it's horrendously expensive and difficult to prove.
But apart from that don't the lithium receptors in kidneys & liver help to retain injected b12 for longer? I'm sure I read it on one of Fred's feeds. I'll try to find it.

Sorry to hear about stomach irritation from copper. I believe the sebacate form is easiest one to tolerate. I seem to remember Fred had to resort to stomach medication for a while to get copper into him. Zantac (ranitidine) or one of the proton pump inhibitors. Can't remember which one. It was just a temporary measure.

Could you need more potassium with the copper? I certainly did when I started it.

I hope you can get your copper tested before you continue with it. Good luck with it.

 

[Athene*]

PS
The lithium was a gradual titration. And like you I began copper after I had been taking lithium for a good while because the copper doesn't work without enough lithium. Have you been taking lithium for a while?

 

[reallyconfused]

Could be light exposure, I wondered about that alright. I'm fed up about it if it's the case because it's horrendously expensive and difficult to prove.
But apart from that don't the lithium receptors in kidneys & liver help to retain injected b12 for longer? I'm sure I read it on one of Fred's feeds. I'll try to find it.

Sorry to hear about stomach irritation from copper. I believe the sebacate form is easiest one to tolerate. I seem to remember Fred had to resort to stomach medication for a while to get copper into him. Zantac (ranitidine) or one of the proton pump inhibitors. Can't remember which one. It was just a temporary measure.

Could you need more potassium with the copper? I certainly did when I started it.

I hope you can get your copper tested before you continue with it. Good luck with it.

Yes I too remember Fred talking about TCR-li in kidneys holding b12 longer.

I took chelated copper on empty stomach first two days and had those side effects. Today I took with a meal and I tolerated very well without side effects.. Which is better for absorption? Yes, I will get my copper tested.. My CBC was poor last time.. Decrease in rbc count, along with raise in mcv.. Indicating partial methylation block.. That led me to try copper. But I have not tested for copper levels.

 

[Methyl90]

Fred on my Quora message :
"
You need to take ALL the minerals. Copper is tied in with iron, zinc, manganese, copper, boron, Molybdenum,plus the major minerals, Lithium (5mg lithium orotate or tartrate). The lithium helps establish balance, homeostasis but takes months to years. Then ALL vitamins in normal amounts and B-Right (Jarrow). Then see what pops up and it woill make more sense.. "