THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING

Methyl90

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Today I will try to insert lithium no longer in the morning but around lunchtime so maybe I can make better use of the methylfolate and B12 taken during the morning. Today I did as Fred suggests or take the methylfolate before the B12. So I woke up and immediately took 7.5mg methylfolate after which I had breakfast and finally took the 10mg of MB12 as a single dose. On a neurological level I seem to feel much better but I still have no tolerance to any stress and, as I said, I have no muscle response ... Despite having some strength.
 

Methyl90

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I was trying to understand why Fred claims that copper and lithium deficiencies only occur with the start of methylation and not before, as at least on me I noticed symptoms of copper deficiency especially even before. Even with regard to lithium, it seems to claim to start it initially and not later. Your experience?

Had Fred ever written the estimated% of methylfolate in sublingual form by accident? I'm thinking about going back to taking it between lip and gum to see if I need it less than taking it by mouth. I suspect that less than half is absorbed when taken with food.

@Athene*
 
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aturtles

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I would appreciate any insight. I'm guessing potassium, but I have a hard time absorbing it in my gut.
There are multiple forms of potassium. I don't know if this is relevant to you, but just in case... I find potassium gluconate to be easiest on my stomach.

Surprisingly, brand can matter, even in this. I use NOW.
 
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Crux

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I noticed darker spots on the skin. Are they related to the difficulty of mobilizing iron?
Of course someone should see a dermatologist if the spots appear suspect.

Copper is needed for production of melanin, so that seems a possible cause of skin spots , hyperpigmentation.

Many hyperpigmented spots contain metals, most often hemosiderin - iron.
 

Methyl90

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Of course someone should see a dermatologist if the spots appear suspect.

Copper is needed for production of melanin, so that seems a possible cause of skin spots , hyperpigmentation.

Many hyperpigmented spots contain metals, most often hemosiderin - iron.
Ok so it makes sense with B12 deficiency as it is related to Copper deficiency. As I wrote above why does copper deficiency occur only AFTER starting methylation? if it is accompanied by vitamin B12 deficiency it should follow the same line. Correct? @Crux
 
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Wow. This thread is overwhelming (in a good way). I’m glad it’s here. It’ll probably take me a month to read and digest. I guess I’m pretty uneducated in it, but I definitely know that I have methylation issues. Could this thread include some answers for me? I really hope so….!!!

You all seem like very kind people. Thank you for being here.
 
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Whatever works for you, but I guess you're aware that Fred advises methylfolate first, then let it get into your bloodstream from your gut (approx 30 minutes). Then put sublingual b12 under top lip (or inject b12).

His reasoning is that by doing it this way you allow to folate and b12 to meet at the same time & this enables both to be more efficiently carried to where they need to be.

I also need more b12 after exercise. If I take it straight after exercise it seems to help more than beforehand. (If I go out for 20 minute walk I usually take a litte folate first then a few sublingual b12s after the walk).

It took over 5 years for me to lose the water retention and build muscle. Unfortunately I didn't know about lithium Fred hadn't discovered it yet. If I'd had the lithium from early on in the protocol like @reallyconfused for example, I might have had a much faster recovery.

Lithium has been the game-changer for me. Apart from the b12 working so much better now, the electrolyte dysfunction settling down has made a big difference to my life.
Hi @Athene*,

Just another doubt I thought you will shed some light on.. Whenever I try to increase my b12 like 4*5mg sublinguals in a day, I get easy bruising (blood leaking in small patches under the skin). It seems to be a symptom of b12 deficiency, which I have never experienced without supplements. I am puzzled why taking high dose b12 will cause b12 deficiency symptoms for me? Have you or anyone you know have experienced this? Or do you have any idea why this happens and what I am missing?

Thanks in advance!
 

Methyl90

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Hi @Athene*,

Just another doubt I thought you will shed some light on.. Whenever I try to increase my b12 like 4*5mg sublinguals in a day, I get easy bruising (blood leaking in small patches under the skin). It seems to be a symptom of b12 deficiency, which I have never experienced without supplements. I am puzzled why taking high dose b12 will cause b12 deficiency symptoms for me? Have you or anyone you know have experienced this? Or do you have any idea why this happens and what I am missing?

Thanks in advance!
It could also be methylfolate deficiency
 
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It could also be methylfolate deficiency
Thanks @Methyl90 .. It happens only when I increase methylb12 to very high doses(20mg sublinguals) a day. At less than 10mg, it never happens.. So increasing mb12 will increase the need for methylfolate? Is it possible? I remember reading Fred's post that increasing mb12, will not increase the folate need. He says l carnitine increases folate need. I remember reading somewhere where he says 1mg mb12 can trigger the need for folate anywhere between 400mcg(min) to 45mg(max). But increasing mb12 dosage will not increase folate need any further. Something like that I remember. I am not very sure, it was long back I read that post.

Anyways what's your experience? Does more mb12 require more folate?
 

Methyl90

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Thanks @Methyl90 .. It happens only when I increase methylb12 to very high doses(20mg sublinguals) a day. At less than 10mg, it never happens.. So increasing mb12 will increase the need for methylfolate? Is it possible? I remember reading Fred's post that increasing mb12, will not increase the folate need. He says l carnitine increases folate need. I remember reading somewhere where he says 1mg mb12 can trigger the need for folate anywhere between 400mcg(min) to 45mg(max). But increasing mb12 dosage will not increase folate need any further. Something like that I remember. I am not very sure, it was long back I read that post.

Anyways what's your experience? Does more mb12 require more folate?

As for me, increasing the MB12 caused me air hunger and when I took a suitable dose of methylfolate the air hunger and shortness of breath passed ... randomness? certainly anything can be but the change in symptoms was very immediate.
 

Athene*

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Hi @Athene*,

Just another doubt I thought you will shed some light on.. Whenever I try to increase my b12 like 4*5mg sublinguals in a day, I get easy bruising (blood leaking in small patches under the skin). It seems to be a symptom of b12 deficiency, which I have never experienced without supplements. I am puzzled why taking high dose b12 will cause b12 deficiency symptoms for me? Have you or anyone you know have experienced this? Or do you have any idea why this happens and what I am missing?

Thanks in advance!
In my case this happens when my copper goes too low.

It happened again just two weeks ago. I was also having stinging and slightly swollen reddish gums.
Another copper deficiency sign for me.

I have had to go up to 6 x 3mg copper daily, broken into two doses, away from other supplements and food.

My attempt to take vitamin d3 1000iu daily has driven up my copper need. Also need tons of magnesium to control the high cortisol caused by d3.

The magnesium works but it's very difficult to manage being coeliac and avoiding folic acid, whey and yeast. There are no magnesium foods left. Same issue with calcium.

Some days I get so frustrated I want to give up, but the energy has increased and I am able to do more (if course that causes more magnesium depletion!).

I'm looking for decent gluten-free dark chocolate (for magnesium). I found a good cacao powder which makes delicious hot chocolate with oat milk. Only approx 60mg magnesium on 2 teaspoons, but it's something.

I don't want to rely on supplements alone for calcium & magnesium.

I said before I could eat a little strained yoghurt. I take it back. Even a pinch of whey causes almost immediate gut cramping & running to loo.

Honestly the food issue is getting depressing. I was never one for diets of any kind.

All dairy is out for me now.
Is egg shell calcium worth a try? I know it's carbonate but there are proteins in it which help absorption apparently.
 
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Athene*

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Ok so it makes sense with B12 deficiency as it is related to Copper deficiency. As I wrote above why does copper deficiency occur only AFTER starting methylation? if it is accompanied by vitamin B12 deficiency it should follow the same line. Correct? @Crux
I just remembered - Fred said he took small dose copper from the beginning (3mg in mineral supplement).

But it wasn't enough to stop his teeth falling out after he achieved methylation.

At that stage he was unaware for too long a time that methylation substantially increased the need for copper.

He discovered it too late to save some teeth though he did stop the rest falling out when he realised he needed a lot of copper for a while.

He's now back to 3mg copper - I remember him posting.

Also re methylfolate - he advised me to take it without food because so many things compete with it.
 
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[GROUP=][/GROUP]
In my case this happens when my copper goes too low.

It happened again just two weeks ago. I was also having stinging and slightly swollen reddish gums.
Another copper deficiency sign for me.

I have had to go up to 6 x 3mg copper daily, broken into two doses, away from other supplements and food.

My attempt to take vitamin d3 1000iu daily has driven up my copper need. Also need tons of magnesium to control the high cortisol caused by d3.

The magnesium works but it's very difficult to manage being coeliac and avoiding folic acid, whey and yeast. There are no magnesium foods left. Same issue with calcium.

Some days I get so frustrated I want to give up, but the energy has increased and I am able to do more (if course that causes more magnesium depletion!).

I'm looking for decent gluten-free dark chocolate (for magnesium). I found a good cacao powder which makes delicious hot chocolate with oat milk. Only approx 60mg magnesium on 2 teaspoons, but it's something.

I don't want to rely on supplements alone for calcium & magnesium.

I said before I could eat a little strained yoghurt. I take it back. Even a pinch of whey causes almost immediate gut cramping & running to loo.

Honestly the food issue is getting depressing. I was never one for diets of any kind.

All dairy is out for me now.
Is egg shell calcium worth a try? I know it's carbonate but there are proteins in it which help absorption apparently.
Thanks much @Athene* ! :)
 

drmullin30

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Although all of the deficiency symptoms of boron are not fully understood, it is known that boron deficiency might result in the abnormal metabolism of calcium and magnesium. Some of the other symptoms include hyperthyroidism, sex hormone imbalance, osteoporosis, arthritis and neural malfunction.
I can update this with my own experience of Boron deficiency.

I have basically developed secondary hypoparathyroidism which has deeply disturbed my calcium and magnesium metabolism. I'm up to 20+ mg of Boron supplementation per day for the last several days and my symptoms seem to be improving.

Symptoms of this include, feeling cold all the time, neuropathy and paresthesia due to calcium deficiency, extreme anxiety, tachycardia and palpitations due to calcium and magnesium deficiency.
 

Learner1

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I can update this with my own experience of Boron deficiency.

I have basically developed secondary hypoparathyroidism which has deeply disturbed my calcium and magnesium metabolism. I'm up to 20+ mg of Boron supplementation per day for the last several days and my symptoms seem to be improving.

Symptoms of this include, feeling cold all the time, neuropathy and paresthesia due to calcium deficiency, extreme anxiety, tachycardia and palpitations due to calcium and magnesium deficiency.
How do you know you're boron deficient?
 
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drmullin30

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How do you know you're boring deficient?
Good point!

I don't know for sure as I have no testing but in discussion with others about their symptoms and in researching hypoparathyroid symptoms I have them all!

Boron is essential for proper parathyroid function.

Also through research on acu-cell in particular, I think I have found that I have been taking too many boron antagonists as part of my oxalate protocol. These include higher dose Vitamin K and E, calcium citrate as well as manganese.

I also have been supplementing iodine for a while and that's another antagonist. I tried taking it yesterday and some of the symptoms returned last night but not as severe.

I have also been on high dose b6 (P5P) , folate (L-MTHF), and b12 (methyl and adenosyl) for a long time and I think that may have contributed. According to Fredd he experienced extreme boron deficiency as well but with slightly different symptoms. I have had some tooth pain as well.

I was also concerned that the lithium was to blame as it can affect the parathyroid but the preponderance of literature states lithium causes hyperparathyroidism which is the exact opposite of my symptoms and I only ever took 5mg per day and only for a few months. This shouldn't have caused any permanent damage at such low doses.

This website https://www.cedars-sinai.org/health-library/diseases-and-conditions/p/parathyroid-disease.html talks about lithium and Parathyroid Hyperplasia:

"Parathyroid hyperplasia is a different condition than hyperparathyroidism. With hyperplasia all four parathyroid glands grow larger, but an adenoma does not grow inside the glands. There is no known cause. Long term use of Lithium (a psychiatric drug) may increase the risk of developing hyperplasia."

I also have many of the symptoms listed there for parathyroid issues but again this is in the context of hyperparathyoidism which results in high calcium blood levels. I seem to have the opposite as taking calcium actually makes me feel better. Could this be paradoxical?

So for these reasons I'm pretty sure my parathyroid gland is acting up and hopefully it's temporary but I will need to get this checked soon.

So I'm concerned I've broken something with this protocol or lithium so I've cut out the lithium, b6 and b12. I'm still taking folate but in much lower doses as well as B2(R5P) B5 (pantethine) niacin and inositol. Yesterday I tried the B6 and had symptoms again. So the iodine and B6 seemed to make things worse yesterday.

I am also feeling better taking high dose Boron but you're right I'm not 100% sure at this point.

How would you test for a Boron deficiency when it isn't even considered an essential nutrient?

I just had my kidneys and thyroid checked recently and everything came back clean. Ultrasound, bloodwork, urine, TSH levels all normal.

They didn't check my parathyroid or calcium levels which I will see about next if I can't solve this problem with boron supplementation.

Any other ideas on what might be causing my symptoms and what else can cause hypoparathyroidism?
 
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Crux

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@drmullin30 ,

This may be going ot, but boron does enhance calcium and magnesium uptake.
Here's a paper about hypoparathyroidism :

https://www.statpearls.com/ArticleLibrary/viewarticle/23275

Evaluation should include the following tests:
  • Total calcium
  • Albumin
  • Calculation of the “corrected” serum calcium.
    • Approximately 50% of total serum calcium is protein-bound, principally to albumin and only free or ionized fraction is biologically active.
    • Corrected calcium = Measured calcium + 0.8 x (4.0 - albumin)
      • (calcium measured in mg/dL; albumin measured in g/L)
  • Ionized calcium in selected cases when there are questions about the accuracy of the corrected calcium
  • Parathyroid hormone level
  • Phosphorus
  • Blood urea nitrogen (BUN) and creatinine
  • Alkaline phosphatase
  • 25-hydroxyvitamin D
  • Urine calcium and creatinine
  • Electrocardiogram
Etiology

  • Postoperative complications of thyroidectomy and other types of head and neck surgery - may be transient or permanent:
  • Abnormal development of parathyroid tissue, for example, DiGeorge Syndrome
  • Autoimmune destruction of parathyroid tissue, for example, Polyglandular autoimmune syndrome, Type 1
  • Activation mutations of the calcium-sensing receptor - autosomal dominant hypocalcemia
  • Activating antibodies of the calcium-sensing receptor
  • Hypomagnesemia
  • Infiltration of parathyroid tissue, for example, granulomatous disease, hemochromatosis, metastatic disease
  • Radiation injury
  • Parathyroid Hormone resistance, Pseudohypoparathyroidism. Some patients with pseudohypoparathyroidism (Type 1a) have an unusual phenotype known as Albright’s hereditary osteodystrophy characterized by short stature, round face, and shortened fourth metacarpal bones. The etiology is an inactivating mutation of the G-alpha subunit of the parathyroid hormone receptor. Due to the resistance to parathyroid hormone, patients have hypocalcemia, hyperphosphatemia but increased serum levels of parathyroid hormone.[5][6][7]