THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING

[AlexK]

Check out the lists of symptoms in the two lists of them. Make a list of all those which you have. All the ones in the two lists can be substantially improved with nutrition. If yo u read you will find why having varnitgine do wonders for you seems awful is becasue of refeeding syndrome. Read the link at least 2 or 3 times to get ta better picture. Then let's talk about it and your answers. Lack of copper can damage you a lot. You won';t be qable to build up to normal levels without lithium and the Transcobalamin Receptor - Lithium (TCR-Li) It took me 5 to 6 years to grow enough to change everything. IN the meantimnme I figured pout the rest of itand hads 17 years of healing. Be well.

https://www.quora.com/Has-someone-u..._filter__=all&__nsrc__=1&__snid3__=1808215186

Freddd, hello. I will be looking forward to your reply, I hope you can help me. A few posts above, I wrote all the symptoms, but I want to add a little more about my reaction to methylfolate. So, I have in one sublingual lozenge 5-MTHF (Quatrefolic® (6S) - 5-MTHF) 800mcg + MeCbl + AdeCbl 1000mcg (the proportion of methylcobalamin to adenosylcobalamin) is unknown. So if I drink a quarter or half of this lozenge, then I immediately get depression, anxiety and severe insomnia. At the same time, my gastrointestinal tract begins to work better, and swelling on the stomach subsides, the heart begins to work better. But I can't bear this deep depression and insomnia. My personality is being changed. Please help me how to transfer this?

I also have another supplement MeCbl+ AdoCbl 1:1 1000mcg). If I take it I don't feel deeply depressed and my sleep is much better than if I take a methylfolate supplement.

I will be very grateful for help, my histamine seems to be destroying me. With methylfolate, even histamine recedes, it seems to me, but this insomnia and depression are very exhausting

 

[Wayne]

The second version is intestinal problems, the syndrome of excessive bacterial growth.

Hi @AlexK -- For anyone with concerns about SIBO, I would highly recommend the following 22-min. video. I found it very informational, and quite literally the best, and most useful YouTube video I've ever watched (and I've watched a LOT!). lol

How I Reversed Chronic Constipation Using Coffee Enemas! | SIBO IBS-C Gallstones

terrible condition passes after glycine.

You might want to consider suppositories that have glycine in them. If you end up trying a coffee enema, it's very simple and straightforward to add some glycine to the coffee solution.

A couple other things you could add would be glutathione and/or NAC. Both would raise glutathione levels in the body, and might help you avoid some of the problems you're running into trying to work with your methylation cycle.

You could also nebulize glutathione, NAC, or any number of other substances.

Take care!

 

[Methyl90]

Hi @AlexK -- For anyone with concerns about SIBO, I would highly recommend the following 22-min. video. I found it very informational, and quite literally the best, and most useful YouTube video I've ever watched (and I've watched a LOT!). lol

How I Reversed Chronic Constipation Using Coffee Enemas! | SIBO IBS-C Gallstones



You might want to consider suppositories that have glycine in them. If you end up trying a coffee enema, it's very simple and straightforward to add some glycine to the coffee solution.

A couple other things you could add would be glutathione and/or NAC. Both would raise glutathione levels in the body, and might help you avoid some of the problems you're running into trying to work with your methylation cycle.

You could also nebulize glutathione, NAC, or any number of other substances.

Take care!

In this regard, I wanted to ask you if the nebulized use of NAC has a similar effect to the intravenous use in the tissues and organs of the body or only in the lungs? @Wayne

 

[Wayne]

In this regard, I wanted to ask you if the nebulized use of NAC has a similar effect to the intravenous use in the tissues and organs of the body or only in the lungs? @Wayne

Hi @Methyl90 -- My best guess is that nebulized NAC and IV NAC woud be pretty similar in how they affect the body. I ran across a number of references where people nebulizing NAC said it sort of "woke up their brain", or something similar. So that would indicate to me that nebulizing NAC is more immediate in how it affects the body than if you take it orally. -- I hope that makes sense...

 

[Methyl90]

Hi @Methyl90 -- My best guess is that nebulized NAC and IV NAC woud be pretty similar in how they affect the body. I ran across a number of references where people nebulizing NAC said it sort of "woke up their brain", or something similar. So that would indicate to me that nebulizing NAC is more immediate in how it affects the body than if you take it orally. -- I hope that makes sense...

I noticed exactly the same thing, I'm experimenting with sodium ascorbate with the same process.

 

[Wayne]

I'm experimenting with sodium ascorbate with the same process.

Are you saying you're nebulizing sodium ascorbate? That would be interesting!

 

[Aidan]

Interesting, thanks for that link.
My cortisol is definitely high at the wrong times and I get energy and sugar cravings in late evening and past most people's bedtime. This seems to have got worse since higher Bs - perhaps my b12 and folate are running low from extra healing the higher Bs provide?
Whenever my b12 isn't absorbing the sleep cycle goes out the window.

I'm sure my liver is indeed struggling, given the decades of low mineral status etc.
I'm not aware of any damage because the usual full blood count tests are normal, but I doubt that tells much.
I believe the ALT & AST liver tests only change when things have got really serious. Albumin is low normal range.
Ferritin has been too high for years but is slowly going down since copper supplementation.

I'm hoping if there is liver damage, the re-feeding of nutrients will eventually address it but maybe it won't.

The other thing I struggle with is that I thrive on vitamin D from the sun, however if I take even half of a child's dose i.e. 300iu, then I suffer massive folate and potassium loss within a day and as soon as I stop taking D3 and increase magnesium a lot I recover within days.
I'm also fine with narrowband uvb lamp in winter (Sperti). I tolerate it fine and it really helps but it's not quite enough for me i.e. 2,500iu D3 max per day from it, and I'm wary of continuing to use it for fear of skin cancer.
Have you ever heard of this phenomenon? Simply can't tolerate D3 orally yet I did in my 30s, before the health completely collapsed in early 40s.

Sorry, this may not be your area of interest. Not to worry if it isn't.

What sort of symptoms do you get following ingesting vitamin d? I have the same problem with being unable to tolerate it, and I'm interested to know if we have the same symptoms

 

[triffid113]

Alex, I a
M not Freddd and cannot answer for most of your symptoms, but here is how I would approach: you say this started with antibiotics. So that kills your intestinal flora and fauna, screws up your digestion, causing widespread deficiencies made worse by your genetics problems. So, fix the digestion problems. Yogurt, potentially prebiotics or probiotics. Someone else once on here got better from cfs and found a short term of probiotics helped, but that long term hindered. Don't know why, just passing it on. She followed Freddd's protocol with just fragments of pills (low, low dose) to start. (And that's all I have to say about your genetic problems). However, I also had ataxia when I was working a lot of overtime and eating junk food out of the machine (similar result to improper digestion). I found that zinc helped with that for me. Now if you get low in zinc it's hard to build up stores because it requires zinc to make hydrochloric acid to digest zinc! So...I don't like to take HCL pills, I can never get the dose right, but I would take kombucha with my meals for the acidity to help digest zinc and slowly get my digestion working again. Kombucha is expensive but it contains acetic acid, just like apple cider vinegar, so taking a tablespoon (or less) in a glass of water with your meal may help. I also know Aloe Vera helps heal the gut, if that is a problem. If I had gut trouble though, I used to take the pink stuff by desert lily (?) Which contained FOS. It worked. You have to fix your digestion first. I would take a good digestive enzyme pill, such as with phytase to help digest zinc despite phytates in your diet. I would drink raw vegetable juices to soothe your digestion and health (not suggesting this only, but I would add it to your diet and avoid irritating stuff like coffee, dairy, alcohol, msg(!)). So, beyond that, you need supernutrition to recover as you will be low in most everything! I mean, take a multi vitamin and basically everything. So sensitivity to noise, lack of dreams, and even edema can be due to magnesium deficiency. It takes p5p and magnesium to make the ornithine cycle to work to pee. I ythink you mentioned acne, which is often a zinc deficiency, and susceptibility to infection can be also. Blood sugar issues can be from low zinc because you need zinc to make insulin. You need a complete b complex like Thorne Basic B (active forms). Some Basic are needed to make methyls, but others are needed to make neurotransmitters (so whichever b is required to make dopamine, if you don't get tyrosine, that b, and iron (usually only a problem with young women), you can't make dopamine and this is a cause of ataxia. Most of the enzymes needed to digest your food need b vitamins and you are having digestive issues, so supply what your digestion needs. I can't remember your list, but my opinion - fix your digestion and at least half of your problems should resolve, then get with Freddd about what's left.

Good luck!

 

[triffid113]

Um, I got on here to say - I don't think I ever saw this on here but MMA can be off even with adequate adenosylcobalamine if vitamin e is low. https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article-abstract/21/1/45/4787829
I wanted to post 5his info somewhere. Guess it will be this topic.

 

[triffid113]

Fyi...idk why zinc helped me with ataxia above, except it fixed my digestion and that improves a lot of things.

Oh, also, if you can't empty your stomach, drink more water. If you are dehydrated, that is exactly what happens. You can retain water and still be dehydrated. Some people (me) can be dehydrated and not even thirsty. Proper hydration is important for proper digestion.

 

[redsun]

Fyi...idk why zinc helped me with ataxia above, except it fixed my digestion and that improves a lot of things.

Oh, also, if you can't empty your stomach, drink more water. If you are dehydrated, that is exactly what happens. You can retain water and still be dehydrated. Some people (me) can be dehydrated and not even thirsty. Proper hydration is important for proper digestion.

Zinc generally is needed for proper brain function and protein synthesis including in the cerebellum, which could be why it helps. This old article states that zinc is needed to transport B12. Its easy to get zinc deficient if you had to eat junk food from a machine since only a few select foods are good zinc sources.

"The role of zinc in the CNS and specifically in regulation of cerebellar functions is still
poorly understood. Hqwever, the high content of zinc in the cerebellum and the fact
that zinc deficiency may lead to the development of cerebellar symptoms suggests that
it is an essential mineral for normal cerebellar functions. Since the cerebellum is
susceptible to nutritional deficiencies (Mancall & Mcentee, 1965; Rio & Sanahuja,
1974). zinc supplementation should be considered in patients receiving anticonvulsants
such as phenytoin and valproate, in chronic alcoholics, in patients with hepatic
disease, in subjects exposed to lead, and in MS patients. Since zinc deficiency during
pregnancy is associated with a high incidence of teratogenic effects (Hurley &
Swenerton, 1966, Hurley et al., 1971), zinc supplementation should be considered in
pregnant epileptic women receiving anticonvulsants such as phenytoin or valproic acid.
Moreover, since zinc is involved in the transport of vitamin B,2 and hence in its
availability to the brain (cf. McLoughlin & Hodge, 1990), its supplementation should
be considered in all patients with vitamin B,2 deficiency s*fically in those with
subacute combined degeneration. Finally, since mild zinc deficiency probably occurs
in a significant segment of the population, it is possible that it may account for as yet
unexplained neurological deficits specifically those related to the cerebellum. Hence,
zinc plasma levels should be routinely examined in all patients presenting with
unexplained cerebellar disease."

 

[SJB944]

Does anyone have suggestions for brands re ADB12 and MB12? Currently taking KAL B-12 Methylcobalamin & Adenosylcobalamin, and Country Life Methylb12. Feel like it might be time to mix it up.

Thanks

 

[linusbert]

Does anyone have suggestions for brands re ADB12 and MB12? Currently taking KAL B-12 Methylcobalamin & Adenosylcobalamin, and Country Life Methylb12. Feel like it might be time to mix it up.

Thanks

i often order Sunday products https://www.sunday.de/en/vitamin-b12/
or pure encapsulations.

 

[chrism]

Hello. Thank you very much for the valuable information. I'm new to this forum, but I've been trying to understand these complex methylation processes for several years.

My health deteriorated critically 2 years ago, there was a sports injury and treatment with antibacterial drugs. At the moment, I feel acute mitochondrial dysfunction, so I ask Freddd and other forum members to suggest their opinion on my symptoms and tests and give advice on recovery. For completeness, I will describe the reactions to some supplements.


The symptoms are the most important in my opinion and the most painful:
1. Permanent constipation. Previously, I never suffered from this, now constipation brings a strong pulling pain in the body. I have to resort to laxatives
2. Pain in the diaphragm, difficulty breathing, according to the results of ultrasound, the right dome of the diaphragm moves worse than the left.
Constant pulling pain in the liver and gallbladder. There are moments as if you don't have the strength to breathe. Oxygen is poorly supplied to organs and tissues.
3. Impossibility of physical exertion. I am now 32 years old, until the age of 30 I was constantly able to endure serious physical exertion. Right away
4. Stopped tolerating gluten, dairy products
5. A strong food and chemical intolerance has formed. Regarding food, I think I react most acutely to histamine products. Activation of mast cells or histamine intolerance is possible.
6. Muscle pain in different parts of the body. Tendon pain. The muscles don't seem to work. Tendon reflexes are weak. Connective tissue problems, ptosis
7. Swelling, especially on the abdomen. Fluid retention is regular, from it pulling pains even more.
8. Interruptions in the work of the heart, arrhythmia
9. Intolerance to products with sulfur content and additives
10. Sometimes muscle spasms are very strong from movements, turns, squats. Basically a spasm in the abdominal muscles.

The tests are the most important (from what I managed to pass during these 2 years):
1. Homozygous mutation MTHFR A1298C(Glu429Ala) C/C
2. Homozygous mutation MTRR gene: Ile22Met (A66G), MET/MET
3. Homocysteine - 7.4
4. Folic acid above the maximum reference values (lack of methylfolate in the cell?)
5. Vitamin B12 at maximum reference values (lack of active forms in the cell?)
6. Copper is very small
7. Lithium - almost at zero
8. Vitamin D - greatly underestimated

Supplements that I tried and the reaction to them (most supplements do not tolerate):
1. Glutathione. Just destroys me and throws me far back. I did droppers, also tried to take liposomal. All the symptoms worsened, especially breathing became difficult, the diaphragm seems to be blocked, the vessels enter into a strong spasm. The only plus is that sleep is being adjusted.
2. Vitamin D. I can not tolerate even 200 IU - again a spasm of the diaphragm and pain and heaviness in the right side, deterioration of the condition.
3. Vitamin C - relatively well tolerated in small doses
4. Omega 3 - not tolerated
5. B2 (in active form) - I can't stand it
6. Molybdenum - somewhat helps to improve breathing after taking sulfur-containing products
7. TMG 500mg - again it is difficult to breathe, spasm in the right side, diaphragm.
8. SAMe - I tolerate well, sleep and mood are improving.
9. Iodine - worsening symptoms , breathing problems , histamine ?
10. Methylcobalamin b12 + adenosylcobalamin b12 sublingually - well tolerated 1/4 tablet from 1000mcg.
Joint reception for a while allows me to breathe without difficulty, the range of the diaphragm increases
11. Folate L-5-MTHF sublingual - at a dose of 200mcg and even less affects sleep negatively. The mood worsens. But I never drank it for more than 7 days. Can't make a start
12. Magnesium is mainly in small quantities
The remaining multiple supplements are usually poorly tolerated, cause complications of symptoms, difficulty breathing, swelling, etc.

Tell me please, how can you get rid of constipation, fluid retention, start to transfer important vitamins, etc.? Every time I thought I was better I rolled back. I tried to drink L-carnitine a year ago without b12, the reaction was very severe. I'm afraid that the symptoms from the diaphragm are frightening, at least for me.

First off, it is awful to hear how bad you have been doing. I'm in a similar situation on a much shorter timeline (6 months) with less overall issues (I think).

I have MTHFR mutations, similar issue with tests for Folate & B12, and had a Vitamin D deficiency that was discovered and corrected last year. I haven't tested copper or lithium. I seem to tolerate supplements a little better than you. However, I can also relate to the constipation, chest pain / breathing issues (very new to me and freak me out), and poor energy / exercise tolerance.

I'm curious how you are doing now and if it has improved at all. Are you doing any better? Any discoveries? I know for heart palpitations I've been taking magnesium recently and it seems to help with that and muscle spasms (but not prolonged painful tight shoulders / stiffness).

The chest pain and breathing is the worst for me psychologically. It is worse on my right side, but can also bother me in any position if it flaring up. I'm getting my liver checked this week, but I'm still curious if there is more to it.

 

[chrism]

I was mentioning some of my issues in another thread ( post1, post2 ), but figured it would be more appropriate to expand on it here.

I started Freddd's protocol about 2 weeks ago. I probably went a little fast, but I don't get much start up with just MeCbl. I need at least MeCbl and Folate, and usually AdoCbl or Carnitine. Recently this has caused me some hardship because I wanted to start slower, but when I take my MeCbl & Folate get horrible sypmtoms that indicate I need AdoCbl.

I follow Freddd's symptom list, added AdoCbl, and felt a lot better. The dizziness, mental slowness, and feeling like I was going to pass out went away (oxygen hunger / abdominal tightness). However, I have anxiety (panic disorder since forever) and it makes the process very hard on me psychologically.

At this point I feel like I need to stop, or continue but be fully prepared. The fact I get such a strong reaction shows that things are happening. The fact I need so many cofactors is bothersome to me, because it makes starting out a little more complicated (titration is muddied until things slow down).

The thought of potassium deficiency killing me fuels anxiety. Also, the act of taking supplements can cause very weird (short term, 15min or less) paradoxical symptoms. To mitigate this I, like many others, am trying to get more food sources on hand that have potassium.

Question:
1. How do I manage multiple co-factors all at once when I haven't really figured out them individually?
2. Right now it seems like multi-vitamin + MeCbl + Folate REQURIES I take at least AdoCbl. Originally I was trying to just take MeCbl and then Folate, but that isn't an option. So it seems like the logical next step is to just take all four together, with the hope it mitigates what I've been experiencing the past 2 days (dizziness, cognition, faint, ~2-3 hours after Mult+MeCbl+Folate).
3. I have tried Carnitine Fumarate twice previously, first it was about 250mg, then 500mg. It gives me initial anxiety, but I was consistently getting brightening and sometimes felt really good. Should I work this into a daily dosing?

I've seen a lot of warning about fumarate, however I have a lot of the muscle symptoms for both AdoCbl and Fumarate, so I do wonder if I just need it. I'm very overwhelmed, it gets better right? Or at least the new symptoms won't be as extreme? Hopefully?

 

[chrism]

Additional details on my supplements.

Multivitamin: Thorne Advanced Nutrients (only 1 pill a day for now, trouble tolerating more)
D3: Generic brand, 2000IU (haven't taken recently...). Last test showed good D levels, but last year I was deficient.
Fish Oil: Kirkland, just arrived, haven't used yet.

MeCbl: Country Life 5mg pill that I split into 4ths.
AdoCbl: Country Life 3mg pill that I split into 1/2 or less.
Carnitine Fumarate: Doctor's brand 500mg (I have only taken 3 times, first two times was half a capsule. I got brightening, some anxiety initially). Years ago I tried it with MeCbl + Folate and recall improved reading, typing, and muscle functions. So I think my body wants Fumarate, but there are a lot of people warning on it.

 

[L'engle]

@chrism Sorry to hear you are having a rough time. No one can really tell you what you need to do specifically as everyone's situation is different. If you are getting symptoms from what you are taking, slow down. It takes years to figure things out. Each cofactor kind of does need to be figured out individually, as it can be difficult to sort out what is causing what. Other people can only share their own experiences but it might be totally different from what you encounter. Be careful above all else. It's ok to take a break.

 

[chrism]

@chrism Sorry to hear you are having a rough time. No one can really tell you what you need to do specifically as everyone's situation is different. If you are getting symptoms from what you are taking, slow down. It takes years to figure things out. Each cofactor kind of does need to be figured out individually, as it can be difficult to sort out what is causing what. Other people can only share their own experiences but it might be totally different from what you encounter. Be careful above all else. It's ok to take a break.

I guess my fault is having a multivitamin that has b9 and b12 in it. However I figured at such low doses for a single pill it wouldn't be as much of an issue. Maybe I'm reacting to the other B vitamins in it as well, wouldn't surprise me.

For slowing down, do I need to get another multi / b complex? I was hoping that MAYBE I would adjust faster, but so far I started out the best and have gotten worse side effects. I guess that isn't uncommon for some.

 

[L'engle]

You can always open the capsules and take a bit of the powder. It took me a long time to realize this, and many things are more tolerable in smaller amounts. Thorne is one of the best brands out there as far as I know, though I haven't used their multivitamin. AOR is also good. Multi vitamins have so many things in them that it increases the likelihood of something not agreeing with you. A b complex at least has fewer things in it to cause complexity.

 

[L'engle]

I took L-carnitine fumarate for a while. I think I had a deficiency and once that was corrected I didn't need it anymore. But that was over 10 years ago and I'm planning to buy it again. Doctor's best is the one I used.