The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[adreno]

Once the Bifido counts come up, they are going to stay up, depending upon the organism supplemented, the concentration supplemented, and the various environmental factors. In this regard, don't think of it as a one time supplement, but something that will have lasting immunomodulatory properties. A new homeostasis will eventually come about.

Are you saying that the bifido probiotics permanently colonize the gut? I was under the impression that probiotics do not. Or is this an effect of RS?

 

[Vegas]

Are you saying that the bifido probiotics permanently colonize the gut? I was under the impression that probiotics do not. Or is this an effect of RS?

Well, we don't have overwhelming evidence of this, but there is some very sound data supporting the principle that some organisms will permanently colonize. PCR technology is helping establish this as fact. This colonization is not true across the entire genus; some Bifidobacteria are clearly transient. Many of these transient organisms thrive in other creatures. A study analyzing the intestinal organisms present that indicates that a patient has high Bifidus counts without specifying the subspecies, is of no particular value. The "elevated" Bifidobacterial subspecies may reflect only transient strains. I believe that fundamental environmental alterations in the GIT are what will result in the permanent colonization among those with such prominent dysbiosis. In fact, given the conditions that exists in many people's GIT's, it's hard to imagine how these organisms could having any lasting influence. Changes in pH, aberrant lactic/acetic acid concentrations, scarcity of vitamins needed for viability, grossly altered synbiotic/symbiotic relationships with other organisms, excessive oxidative and nitrosative stress; there are so many components involved in determining if an organism will survive and thrive. I do think the substrate availability and enhanced SCFA production is of enormous significance, and perhaps one of the missing piece from what I have been trying to do. Among my many hypotheses, as ridiculous as they may be, I think it is clear that those subspecies that are in great need are those that are highly sensitive to oxygen.

Sorry, got to get back to writing reports.

 

[Christopher]

I can tell you what he has in his gut, lots of pathogenic gram negative organisms. See my post above, you need to cut back further. Once the Bifido counts come up, they are going to stay up, depending upon the organism supplemented, the concentration supplemented, and the various environmental factors. In this regard, don't think of it as a one time supplement, but something that will have lasting immunomodulatory properties. A new homeostasis will eventually come about. The endotoxins will suppress the immune response, there is always counter-regulation.

Some phosphatidylserine, not sure how heavy he is to recommend a dosage, Omega 3, and epsom salt baths might help with the mood. Don't give up on the RS, just stop it for now. In the longer term, dietary changes, will most certainly help. Do it while the kids are young enough to accept and not hopelessly addicted to simple carbs.

How can we be sure, however, that the RS is not feeding the gram negative organisms you reference?

Also I will say that RS and the Natren supplementation certainly has had a long-lasting effect on my gut. I have not taken any this week, and I am still dealing with GI symptoms, so don't take it lightly if you don't feel anything at first.

 

[Ripley]

Some interesting nuggets from Dr. Ayers in this post on RS

Dr. Ayers's followup post is even better:

So, here comes the part that was missing from Nikolay’s Paleo plus RS. He left out the missing gut flora. RS is a panacea for those with some gut bacteria that can digest RS, but for those with profoundly crippled gut flora, e.g. some of those with autoimmune symptoms, RS is just inert fiber, not flora food. [LINK]

This is what Dr. Grace/BG has been saying all along. As she put it, those who aren't doing well on RS are likely feeding "empty zoo cages". (And those who do even worse may be feeding "viper filled zoo cages").

Read the rest here.

Dr. Ayers recommends easy homemade fermented vegetables to recolonize the gut. Dr. Grace/BG recommends SBOs and fresh live dirt to recolonize the gut. RS is just the fertilizer once the seeds are in place.

Richard Nikoley is working on a protocol (to be published soon) of taking three of Dr. Grace/BG's favorite SBOs (Prescript Assist, AOR Probiotic-3, Primal Defense) 1 capsule of each twice a day on an empty stomach, followed 2-3 hours later by food or RS/water.

 

[adreno]

So, what are us who have had negative reactions to RS to do? Do we have to focus on taking probiotics and eating fermented foods for a while, before reintroducing RS?

WRT probitotics, what is so special about Primal Defense? Yes, it contains bacillus subtilis, but the rest is just lacto and bifido, and not even in very high doses. It seems expensive, and unlikely to survive the stomach acid anyway.

And is anyone else worried about taking Streptococcus faecalis?

 

[MeSci]

Dr. Ayers's followup post is even better:


This is what Dr. Grace/BG has been saying all along. As she put it, those who aren't doing well on RS are likely feeding "empty zoo cages". (And those who do even worse may be feeding "viper filled zoo cages").

Dr. Art Ayers said:
So, here comes the part that was missing from Nikolay’s Paleo plus RS. He left out the missing gut flora. RS is a panacea for those with some gut bacteria that can digest RS, but for those with profoundly crippled gut flora, e.g. some of those with autoimmune symptoms, RS is just inert fiber, not flora food. [LINK]

'Autoimmune symptoms' seems an odd expression. There are autoimmune diseases (and increasing evidence that ME is one) but their symptoms are not generally specific to autoimmunity, which is a major reason why it takes a long time for them to be classified as autoimmune diseases.

 

[thomas_3000]

Here's another important part Dr. Art Ayers wrote:

Eating a meat diet will eventually eliminate gut bacteria needed to digest some plant materials and produce intolerances. The missing bacteria will not be regained upon return to eating plants again.

This ties in perfectly with what has been said above. In most cases, and especially the more severe cases such as chronic disorders, non-transient probiotics AND prebiotics are both needed when battling gut dysbiosis. We're just finally coming around to understanding how we should go on about doing this: SBOs and certain types of fiber.

I'm wondering whether SBOs are part of the solution, or THE solution, in replacing bacterial species in the gut. There are good arguments for both sides.

I'm anxious to find out where we'll all stand in about a year from now, I suspect a lot of people will be feeling a lot better.

 

[adreno]

Here's another important part Dr. Art Ayers wrote:

He is recommending a vegetarian diet? Or does he mean that meat should not be the dominant food?

 

[finalgates]

i have some questions.
1)can i take RS the same time i take vitamins minerals?or is it like psylium fiber which i think stop vitamins to get absorbed?can i take RS with meat?
2)how many days to see difference?i took it yesterday and nothing?not even flatuence.maybe i need psylium?
i dissolve in a glass of water 4 tbsp RS and i drink it.is it right way of taking?i take 30 billion probiotics too.mostly bifido

 

[thomas_3000]

He is recommending a vegetarian diet? Or does he mean that meat should not be the dominant food?

No. More specifically he is 'not recommending' a meat and fat diet (ergo. a diet lacking in fiber from diverse sources, eg. plants, starches, etc.).

Here is the link, should've included it right away: http://freetheanimal.com/2014/02/inflammation-potential-diabetes.html

 

[thomas_3000]

i have some questions.
1)can i take RS the same time i take vitamins minerals?or is it like psylium fiber which i think stop vitamins to get absorbed?can i take RS with meat?
2)how many days to see difference?i took it yesterday and nothing?not even flatuence.maybe i need psylium?
i dissolve in a glass of water 4 tbsp RS and i drink it.is it right way of taking?i take 30 billion probiotics too.mostly bifido

- Read this thread from the beginning.
- Peruse the articles on freetheanimal.com regarding resistant starch
- Read this: http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.nl/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel_18.html

Most of your questions are found there.

 

[Violeta]

So, what are us who have had negative reactions to RS to do? Do we have to focus on taking probiotics and eating fermented foods for a while, before reintroducing RS?

WRT probitotics, what is so special about Primal Defense? Yes, it contains bacillus subtilis, but the rest is just lacto and bifido, and not even in very high doses. It seems expensive, and unlikely to survive the stomach acid anyway.

And is anyone else worried about taking Streptococcus faecalis?

I think you have it right about taking probiotics and eating fermented foods for a while.

I'm taking Pimal defense and really can tell that it is working. I've made my own fermented food in the past and had a difficult time with them, but everybody's in a different place.

I found Primal Defense on sale somewhere online, in a bottle with 216 instead of the normal 180, but that was last summer.

 

[Rand56]

Richard Nikoley is working on a protocol (to be published soon) of taking three of Dr. Grace/BG's favorite SBOs (Prescript Assist, AOR Probiotic-3, Primal Defense) 1 capsule of each twice a day on an empty stomach, followed 2-3 hours later by food or RS/water.

hi Ripley

I can see how taking all 3 of these could get quite pricey for a number of people, including myself. Since many of you know more about probiotics than I do, if I wanted to try one of these, which one would give me more bang for the buck so to speak...the Prescript Assist?

 

[Christopher]

So, what are us who have had negative reactions to RS to do? Do we have to focus on taking probiotics and eating fermented foods for a while, before reintroducing RS?

WRT probitotics, what is so special about Primal Defense? Yes, it contains bacillus subtilis, but the rest is just lacto and bifido, and not even in very high doses. It seems expensive, and unlikely to survive the stomach acid anyway.

And is anyone else worried about taking Streptococcus faecalis?

Certain people have had severe and permanent negative reactions to SBO with regard to GI symptoms. I'd be extremely careful with them despite the cheerleaders promoting it as a panacea.

 

[thomas_3000]

Certain people have had severe and permanent negative reactions to SBO with regard to GI symptoms. I'd be extremely careful with them despite the cheerleaders promoting it as a panacea.

Do you have some links to more information regarding this? I'm interested to learn how they can cause "severe and permanent negative' damage to the GIT. Were it patients that were already heavily immunocomprised?

 

[dmholmes]

Here is the takeaway for this blog: If you are severely immune-compromised, do not take any probiotics. They are alive. Like a live (attenuated) vaccine, probiotics are contraindicated in a severely immune-compromised individual.

http://www.drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel_16.html?m=1

 

[froufox]

I recently tried the Resistant Starch (Bob's Red mill one from iherb) - i took 1 heaped tspn, and I felt very depressed and kind of wired too (sort of felt like nervous system was really irriated) the next day (with a low mood for a few days after that) so clearly it was too much to begin with, so i waited for 2 weeks before trying it again and then took 1/3 of a small tspn...still got some depression, but 2 days after that I passed a worm.

Just to put that into context Ive been treating parasites/worms for several months with various herbs and thought I was making a little bit of progress, but I have never actually seen a worm (it might well be that i have just not noticed them tho).

Ive also been taking Prescript Assist on and off for the last yr (and drink water kefir, take sac boul on and off), and also took some green clay recently. I thought it was a bit of a coincidence though with the worm just 2 days following my 2nd dose of RS. I havent tried it since as i find the low mood difficult to cope with, but i will attempt it again. Anyway just thought id share my exp fwiw

 

[Violeta]

http://www.drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel_16.html?m=1

Good info there, thanks. The comments are helpful, too. Have you seen any info on that site about what exactly gram negative bacteria live on? I don't mind searching but my vision is messed up today and I'm sick.

 

[Christopher]

Do you have some links to more information regarding this? I'm interested to learn how they can cause "severe and permanent negative' damage to the GIT. Were it patients that were already heavily immunocomprised?

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...s-sbos-gone-awol-gut-fubar-a-weird-one.17887/

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...prescript-assist-probiotic.24227/#post-396799

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...after-4-years-of-cfs.17664/page-5#post-271971


It seems only the first post is a first-hand account, but still enough to scare me into letting other people with compromised immune systems be guinea pigs for SBO. It also might be the shady brand he tried, but still. Good luck to everyone who tries it. I know most don't have a bad reaction, but it's possible.

I bet it would even help me, but after really bad digestive permanent reactions to small doses of ALA last year, I'm terrified of doing further damage.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Thanks @Violeta for the yoga suggestion.
I did some stretches (not quite as advanced as the yoga lady) and some hot and cold treatment. (Alternating between an icebath and the kids paddling pool filled with water warmed in the sun.) And I ate some natto, then some more.

@Vegas - I really appreciate that description of how enhanced gene expression should eventually help swing things around. LOTS of great suggestions for me to take in there. Thanks!
I had to walk up and down a hill a couple of times late last week...I didn't exactly manage it briskly, but I noticed that helped a lot. I also did some acupressure per your instructions, and next time I do some hot & cold water therapy I'll add Epsom salts to the warm water.
Low and slow it is for me I think. I'm planning to use more SBOs, and to add in some zinc. I have most of the other things on board already. (Artesunate has been on my radar, and it will stay out there for now I think...)

I experienced some extreme tiredness (not whole body fatigue, but an increased need to sleep - drowsiness) prior to the lymph symptoms so if anyone else notices similar tiredness maybe dial back the RS or suspend it??
Otherwise though I'm feeling fine, in fact relatively well. I experience an enhanced sense of wellbeing taking more RS. I haven't experienced anything that makes me think I'm feeding Vipers. Sleep is patchy though...some good nights, and some not so much.