The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Violeta

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Oh, maybe you can tell me if they've been talking about whether metabolic syndrome is caused by a high fat diet as it says in that study and another one that I looked at. They also say a high fat diet reduces fecal bifidobacteria and increases fecal LPS. I'm really not clear on which caused which???

The reason I ask is, at first I took it at face value, but then I started to wonder what type of fat they used and if it was mixed with flour or dairy. I would think the type of fat and how it's served would make a difference.

Also I was thinking that if they found a higher amount of fecal LPS in mice with high fat diet, maybe the fat was causing die off. I did see a study that said HDL has a good effect on killing gram negative bacteria.

I did stop using milk and cream, I haven't had cheese for two days, but I am going to stick with ghee. I'm cooking with coconut milk, and I doubt that would cause metabolic syndrome or increase in gram negative bacteria.

It's just interesting because I had been wondering how diet affects propagation of gram negative bacteria.

Two-Four TBS a day, wow, good for you. I have that on the back burner for a little bit. Better sleep and stable blood sugar are something I am looking forward to. I woke up today with just a minor headache and was able to get moving a little better.

I will try some aloe, too. Do you know if the aloe leaf powder would have the same action as the juice?

Violeta
 
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Ripley

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Oh, maybe you can tell me if they've been talking about whether metabolic syndrome is caused by a high fat diet as it says in that study and another one that I looked at.
If by "they" you mean the ancestral community, then no, I don't think anyone in the ancestral community would ever say that metabolic syndrome is caused by a high SAFA or MUFA diet. (There were plenty of ancestral cultures that ate high SAFA/MUFA). The community might certainly point to a high PUFA diet — which can promote inflammation. Anyway, the studies that say high fat leads to metabolic syndrome are typically poorly designed and the fats are rarely ever natural in such studies (transfats, hydrogenated for instance).

To give you an idea of how useless such a study would be, for all we know, eating a high fat diet might "cause" metabolic syndrome because eating lots of fat simply leaves little room to eat foods high in fermentable fiber (just as an example). In that case, it wouldn't be the fat that's causing the metabolic syndrome, but rather not eating certain foods, which might promote the wrong gut (again, that's just a hypothetical example).
 

MeSci

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I really would advise people most strongly to ignore studies on non-human species unless they are interested in what happens to other species rather than humans. This is especially the case with dietary studies. It makes no sense to be trying to follow an ancestral human diet while looking at effects of different foods on non-humans!

If you don't believe me that animal models are unscientific nonsense, the huge list of quotes in my blogpost here might change your mind.
 

MeSci

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aprilk1869

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Just wondering how many people here are FUT2 non-secretors? The gene FUT2 is responsible for producing fucose which is basically food for beneficial bacteria in the gut. 20% of Caucasians are non-secretors (including me) which means we're resistant to some infections such as norovirus and HIV however we're more likely to have a poor diversity of bifidobacteria.

The gene to look for is rs601338 - if you are AA then it means you're a FUT2 non-secretor.

I generally consider myself healthy and have no gut problems but my parents are far from healthy. So I've been experimenting myself before getting them to take any RS and so far I've found that there's been a lot of activity in my gut, laxative effects etc. Something is happening, so it looks like FUT2 non-secretors need more prebiotics in the diet than most people.

From 23andme:
The FUT2 gene encodes an enzyme that modifies certain cell surface molecules so they can be expressed on cells or released into bodily fluids. If neither copy of the FUT2 gene is functional, a person will not produce these molecules on their digestive tract cells or in their bodily secretions –hence the term “non-secretor”.

In addition to conferring norovirus resistance, being a non-secretor has also been associated with resistance to other infections. Non-secretors may be less susceptible to HIV infection. But they may be at higher risk for infection with several types of bacteria, including strains of E. coli that cause urinary tract infections and viruses such as the flu.
From tatertot:
Ellen – nothing that says they would be worse off, just that if you are a person who has a good expression of the Fut-2 gene, then your gut microbes may not need as much ‘babying’ as people without the Fut-2 gene.

Luckily, about 80% of the population has the Fut-2 gene, and are known as ‘secretors’, meaning they secrete a substance, fucose, in their intestines, and this correlates with healthier microbe populations.

The 20% of non-secretors may be the ones who need a lot of extra RS in their diet. But everybody, secretor or non, wins with RS.

I probably shouldn’t have even brought this up, as I’m no expert in this field, but it does illustrate the point that we are all different and may have different needs.

If you want to read about Fut-2, here is something that will make your eyes spin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3098274/

‘too long/didn’t read’ summary: “In this study we present evidence that the FUT2 gene, which defines the secretor status … is one of the host genotypic features determining the composition of intestinal microbiota, particularly bifidobacterial population. We showed that bifidobacterial diversity and composition is strongly associated with the secretor status of the host. These results increase our understanding of the factors explaining inter-individual variations in intestinal microbiota composition and help us to evaluate the role of intestinal microbiota in health and disease.”

I find this stuff fascinating, another trait not shared by everyone…
http://freetheanimal.com/2013/09/ta...ood-glucose-spikes-to-110.html#comment-541113
 

Violeta

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The first time I ate natto, I could barely figure out where I was, the brain fog was so bad.

.
Natto is nasty, but it might be one of the best foods for dealing with LPS. The enzymatic action of the nattokinase
should break down the LPS and it comes with K2 to deal with any calcium that might be released.

I've read that miso contains natto type ingredients, just weaker. (I realize this doesn't deal with the front end, but I actually like to deal with stuff from both ends.)
 
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I love natto! Mind you I'm the only one in my family who does, so I know it's not universally popular. B subtilis is one of my favourite probiotics too, though I'm out of it right now!

@aprilk1869 thanks for the lead on the FUT2 gene. I'm AG for that snp. Interested to know if you find benefits from the RS even though you don't have ME. :)

I'm getting what I think may be pathogen displacement, based on what @Vegas described happening in the lymph. I developed burning in the femoral, inguinal lymph areas....worse on the left side with numbness down the front of that thigh. It's not too uncomfortable, just like nothing I've experienced before, and unrelenting since the day before yesterday. So I skipped last nights PS and took activated charcoal instead. Woke up bright and early again with lymph symptoms 50% better.
Hmmm so what to do next. Intestinal alkaline phosphatase as Vegas mentioned earlier, looks promising as a endotoxin degrader. I read (somewhere) IAP is stimulated by omega 3 EPA. There are also recent papers suggesting it may be modulated by diet. Any ideas on the specifics of a dietary approach for that Vegas?? (The paper abstracts don't give much away.)
 

Sushi

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I love natto! Mind you I'm the only one in my family who does, so I know it's not universally popular. B subtilis is one of my favourite probiotics too, though I'm out of it right now!

@aprilk1869 thanks for the lead on the FUT2 gene. I'm AG for that snp. Interested to know if you find benefits from the RS even though you don't have ME. :)

I'm getting what I think may be pathogen displacement, based on what @Vegas described happening in the lymph. I developed burning in the femoral, inguinal lymph areas....worse on the left side with numbness down the front of that thigh. It's not too uncomfortable, just like nothing I've experienced before, and unrelenting since the day before yesterday. So I skipped last nights PS and took activated charcoal instead. Woke up bright and early again with lymph symptoms 50% better.
Hmmm so what to do next. Intestinal alkaline phosphatase as Vegas mentioned earlier, looks promising as a endotoxin degrader. I read (somewhere) IAP is stimulated by omega 3 EPA. There are also recent papers suggesting it may be modulated by diet. Any ideas on the specifics of a dietary approach for that Vegas?? (The paper abstracts don't give much away.)
Anne, what dose of RS are you taking now? I am up to 1 1/2 tablespoons with no problems yet. I am raising the dose very slowly.

Best,
Sushi
 
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Hi @Sushi, I've been taking 2 Tbsp once per day usually (but twice per day a couple of times). I had no problems at the big doses initially, but some kind of shift started and symptoms have built up.
I had discomfort with the lower doses (reflux, irritation) and I was worried I might be feeding upper gut pathogens with not sufficient left over for the good guys further down...which is why I went for those bigger doses.
Perhaps I should start again at 1 Tbsp and tread carefully.... :)

Are you seeing evidence of a gut ecology shift, or any improvement in symptoms at 1 1/2 Tbsp? That's a pretty big dose!
 

Sushi

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Hi @Sushi, I've been taking 2 Tbsp once per day usually (but twice per day a couple of times). I had no problems at the big doses initially, but some kind of shift started and symptoms have built up.
I had discomfort with the lower doses (reflux, irritation) and I was worried I might be feeding upper gut pathogens with not sufficient left over for the good guys further down...which is why I went for those bigger doses.
Perhaps I should start again at 1 Tbsp and tread carefully.... :)

Are you seeing evidence of a gut ecology shift, or any improvement in symptoms at 1 1/2 Tbsp? That's a pretty big dose!
No changes other than a bit better bowel function. I'd say I am feeling a tad fluish (just a tad), which would make sense as I know I have an LPS problem.

Sushi
 

Violeta

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I love natto! Mind you I'm the only one in my family who does, so I know it's not universally popular. B subtilis is one of my favourite probiotics too, though I'm out of it right now!

@aprilk1869 thanks for the lead on the FUT2 gene. I'm AG for that snp. Interested to know if you find benefits from the RS even though you don't have ME. :)

I'm getting what I think may be pathogen displacement, based on what @Vegas described happening in the lymph. I developed burning in the femoral, inguinal lymph areas....worse on the left side with numbness down the front of that thigh. It's not too uncomfortable, just like nothing I've experienced before, and unrelenting since the day before yesterday. So I skipped last nights PS and took activated charcoal instead. Woke up bright and early again with lymph symptoms 50% better.
Hmmm so what to do next. Intestinal alkaline phosphatase as Vegas mentioned earlier, looks promising as a endotoxin degrader. I read (somewhere) IAP is stimulated by omega 3 EPA. There are also recent papers suggesting it may be modulated by diet. Any ideas on the specifics of a dietary approach for that Vegas?? (The paper abstracts don't give much away.)
Anne, you might like this yoga video for moving the lymph.

 

xjhuez

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He's been off of the potato RS for two days and has returned to good, so I reintroduced it this morning in a smaller dose. We shall see. Impossible, at this point, to discern between suffering that's to be expected along the road to recovery and suffering due to something simply exacerbating the problem. :(
Same issue - two days of a 1/2 tsp potato starch and my son once again has dark circles under his eyes, abdominal discomfort and is in a bad mood. Unfortunately the stuff is no panacea.

Time for a test to find out what's growing in his gut.
 

Vegas

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I love natto! Mind you I'm the only one in my family who does, so I know it's not universally popular. B subtilis is one of my favourite probiotics too, though I'm out of it right now!

I'm getting what I think may be pathogen displacement, based on what @Vegas described happening in the lymph. I developed burning in the femoral, inguinal lymph areas....worse on the left side with numbness down the front of that thigh. It's not too uncomfortable, just like nothing I've experienced before, and unrelenting since the day before yesterday. So I skipped last nights PS and took activated charcoal instead. Woke up bright and early again with lymph symptoms 50% better.
Hmmm so what to do next. Intestinal alkaline phosphatase as Vegas mentioned earlier, looks promising as a endotoxin degrader. I read (somewhere) IAP is stimulated by omega 3 EPA. There are also recent papers suggesting it may be modulated by diet. Any ideas on the specifics of a dietary approach for that Vegas?? (The paper abstracts don't give much away.)

I think the first thing to do, is to suspend or diminish the intensity of the immunostimulation. This is particularly true with someone who is just starting to experience some of the effects of mild endotoxemia because he/she doesn't have the enhanced gene expression acting on those genes that inactivate the endotoxins. I, having been exposed to high-levels of LPS for a long time, can likely tolerate much higher levels than you; enhanced gene expression will ultimately increase phosphatase activity. This does raise the point of not starting and stopping the immune stimulation, I think maintaining tolerable levels probably pays some dividends by perpetuating the gene expression, therefore, a low and slow approach likely pays dividends. I would not recommend increasing the dosage.

The only enzymes that I know of that participate in inactivation of lipid A are intestinal phosphatase and acyloxyacyl hydrolase. In reality, there are most certainly other enzymes that have not been discovered, and these are probably phosphatase enzymes. In this regard, you will likely benefit in the long-run, not the short term, from zinc, magnesium, and manganese supplementation, which are metallo-phosphatase co-factors and all found to be deficient in most with ME/CFS. I suspect you take some of these: 60 mg, 10 mg, zinc and manganese, respectively. I think the more likely beneficial supplementation, though, is ultimately going to come from the commensal gut organisms, as these organisms possess numerous ways in which they can neutralize endotoxins. Of course this makes sense when you think that these organisms have interacted and evolved over millions of years in complex relationships with the gram negative pathogenic organisms. Although now is not the time for more lower bowel immunostimulation, I believe these organisms will eventually maintain the homeostasis and effectively neutralize the gut.

If you are already dealing with lymphatic pain, I think there are a couple of things you can do. Light exercise, like brisk walking, will induce muscle contraction and will help move some of the lymph fluid. I used to find that doing some light weight lifting with my legs would help. Obviously if you do too much this is going to be counterproductive. The mechanical action will be supplemented by the chemical effects of increased bioenergetics. I would also recommend accupressure distal to or at the site of the congestion. It sounds like you have some neural compression, which can hurt quite a bit; the swelling can compress nerves adjacent to the lymph node that is affected. If the pain is in the groin, try applying moderate pressure to ST-36 for about 30 seconds X 5. You can even apply pressure to the site of the pain. This will increase circulation and move the fluid along, as well as stimulate a release of pro-inflammatory substances. If it gets to be intolerable, an NSAID, but only short-term.

With respect to IAP and AOAH, I don't believe there are any enzymatic cofactors; however, ATP will increase the efficiency of these reactions. In someone with ME/CFS, I think Mg will be most effective supplement in enhancing ATP, given the known intracellular magnesium deficiencies. Given the diffusion of LPS in peripheral tissues, I think whole body MgSO4 is superior. So you really should consider an Epsom Salt Bath.

Other things that I think are important, phospholipids, Vit E., and yes Omega 3's, but I suspect you take some of these already. Also, if tolerated, Taurine and Glycine, I prefer dimethylglycine. The compound that Cheney raves about for its redox potential, Artesunate, has a powerful effect on LPS. Of course it also has a powerful effect on pathogens, so this wouldn't be a good time for this, perhaps. Other things like Quercetin, Luteolin, and Agrimoniae Herba are reported to have an effect, but I can't personally endorse these because I have generally avoided most herbs and some concentrated phytochemicals. Nearly all plant compounds are going to have a combination of properties that participate in the neutralization of these endotoxins, but they also commonly include compounds that many find causes them adverse symptoms.

Dietary recommendations gets to be such a lengthy discussion, but I think avoidance of hydrogenated fats is very important. Anything that is shown to participate in enhancing high density lipoprotein is going to be good for you and can help mitigate the effects of LPS. Actually, virtually anything that improves cholesterol ratios and modifies insulin response will be beneficial, because, what are these things, they are bifidogenic. I think foods high in pectin, like pears, apples are great, as are kiwi, and most berries. The white part of an orange is a great fiber. Also monosaturated fats, like avocado. I can attest to the effects of these in stabilizing blood sugar.

So, I am suggesting you back off the PS and any Bifidus source for awhile, and let things calm down. If your Bifidus counts have been significantly increased this might continue for a bit, but it will return to normal after awhile, and your net pathogen load will have diminished. Should be o.k. to keep some of your other probiotics going as they should help call things down via T-helper cells and other mechanisms. Try the accupressure, MgSO4 baths, this seems to have the most immediate effect. Longer-term, keep the good fats in place--phospholipids/E/Omega 3, taurine/DMG, and Zn/Mn.
 

Vegas

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Same issue - two days of a 1/2 tsp potato starch and my son once again has dark circles under his eyes, abdominal discomfort and is in a bad mood. Unfortunately the stuff is no panacea.

Time for a test to find out what's growing in his gut.
I can tell you what he has in his gut, lots of pathogenic gram negative organisms. See my post above, you need to cut back further. Once the Bifido counts come up, they are going to stay up, depending upon the organism supplemented, the concentration supplemented, and the various environmental factors. In this regard, don't think of it as a one time supplement, but something that will have lasting immunomodulatory properties. A new homeostasis will eventually come about. The endotoxins will suppress the immune response, there is always counter-regulation.

Some phosphatidylserine, not sure how heavy he is to recommend a dosage, Omega 3, and epsom salt baths might help with the mood. Don't give up on the RS, just stop it for now. In the longer term, dietary changes, will most certainly help. Do it while the kids are young enough to accept and not hopelessly addicted to simple carbs.