The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[dmholmes]

Some interesting nuggets from Dr. Ayers in this post on RS:

Several hundred bacterial enzymes of the gut flora are required to digest the complex soluble fibers of food plants in a typical diet. Resistant starch requires two.

And in the comments when asked about better sleep quality:

I would guess that by lowering inflammation, RS also enhances vitD production and so contributes to sleep. It would be interesting to see if the epidemic of vitD deficiency yields to RS.

 

[South]

Yes, that is the pattern.
... The effect of LPS in causing depressive symptoms in animal experiments is pretty compelling. ...
Hypoglycemia: While LPS in large doses in significant concentrations will diminish appetite, moderate exposures will tend to cause hypoglycemia, ...

Please someone, I'm lost on these acronyms: what is "LPS"?

 

[dmholmes]

Please someone, I'm lost on these acronyms: what is "LPS"?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipopolysaccharide

 

[Violeta]

I am thinking that one of the possible reasons for bad side effects from LPS is that it is inducing fibrin production which is causing circulation problems. I think a systemic enzyme might be really helpful.

 

[adreno]

I am thinking that one of the possible reasons for bad side effects from LPS is that it is inducing fibrin production which is causing circulation problems. I think a systemic enzyme might be really helpful.

Interesting, I feel like I'm always battling fibrosis. It seems like taking care of gut health can help a great many deal of problems that we didn't necessarily think were connected.

 

[Violeta]

It only gets worse. Last night I saw a couple of studies that said that LPS causes macrophages and microglial cells to not let go of Ca+, so this morning I woke up wondering if that's what causes soft tissue calcification.

Voila! http://diposit.ub.edu/dspace/handle/2445/34285

Let me see if I can get a link that works to the study that shows that LPS keeps Ca+ inside the cell.

Calcium inside the cell causes death to the cell, according to Ray Peat.

I understand that I have to keep looking.

PS: I took several proteolytic enzymes and a couple of quercetin with nettles yesterday and woke up feeling like I was hit with a minivan instead of a truck. Also, charcoal isn't optional for me and I'm guessing it's because of bad case of leaky gut.

 

[Vegas]

It only gets worse. Last night I saw a couple of studies that said that LPS causes macrophages and microglial cells to not let go of Ca+, so this morning I woke up wondering if that's what causes soft tissue calcification.

Voila! http://diposit.ub.edu/dspace/handle/2445/34285

Let me see if I can get a link that works to the study that shows that LPS keeps Ca+ inside the cell.

Calcium inside the cell causes death to the cell, according to Ray Peat.

That is why it is essential to use magnesium for its effects as a calcium channel blocker among other reasons.


[/quote] I took several proteolytic enzymes and a couple of quercetin with nettles yesterday and woke up feeling like I was hit with a minivan instead of a truck. Also, charcoal isn't optional for me and I'm guessing it's because of bad case of leaky gut.[/quote]

The first time I ate natto, I could barely figure out where I was, the brain fog was so bad.

Quercetin is not going to be good for you, it is a flavanoid and thus a phenolic compound. In fact, I wouldn't recommend any flavoids, including the addition of bioflavonoids in Vitamin C. Phenols have the "-OH" hydroxyl group, as in hydroxyl radicals. Martin Pally tried to fix this problem on the back end, but what we need to do is eliminate the source of the NOS and OS on the front end if we are ever to achieve this.

 

[Vegas]

I was having an uncomfortable gut reaction on the smaller doses so I "fasted" on bone broth, fresh juices (fibre strained out) and aloe vera juice for a couple of days and then I took 2 Tbsp....that's when I had the great sleep. Obviously that approach wont suit everyone, but it worked well for me so I'm putting it out there.

I've taken a 2 Tbsp+ dose twice now, around 5pm. The second dose did not promote good sleep and dream recall for what that's worth. I'll reintroduce some bifido coconut yogurt and other things this weekend, and see if I can still get away with minimal negative reaction to the big doses. The only gut reaction I got was around 9pm, a slightly tight feeling in the gut and a kind of humming/buzzing sensation. The only other change I've noticed is slightly swollen lymph glands in the neck.

Anne.

Interesting, so I think the diet you pursued may have lowered the endotoxin content in the gut and thus when you introduced the starch you didn't get the same inflammatory reaction when the RS was added. This is similar to when you take an oral dose of zinc. Zinc is what makes alkaline phosphatase work, and the relatively recently discovered intestinal phosphatase which is also a zinc-dependent enzyme helps neutralize LPS in the GIT. Unfortunately, LPS + oral zinc will create a pro-inflammatory reaction response, hence the nausea and yucky feeling it conveys. Theoretically, zinc oxide wouldn't create the same effect, but it is certainly not the ideal form of zinc. Nearly every "inflammatory" disease I have studied can be described as a zinc-deficient condition.

 

[Violeta]

That is why it is essential to use magnesium for its effects as a calcium channel blocker among other reasons.

I took several proteolytic enzymes and a couple of quercetin with nettles yesterday and woke up feeling like I was hit with a minivan instead of a truck. Also, charcoal isn't optional for me and I'm guessing it's because of bad case of leaky gut.[/quote]

The first time I ate natto, I could barely figure out where I was, the brain fog was so bad.

Quercetin is not going to be good for you, it is a flavanoid and thus a phenolic compound. In fact, I wouldn't recommend any flavoids, including the addition of bioflavonoids in Vitamin C. Phenols have the "-OH" hydroxyl group, as in hydroxyl radicals. Martin Pally tried to fix this problem on the back end, but what we need to do is eliminate the source of the NOS and OS on the front end if we are ever to achieve this.[/quote]

Natto is good for dealing with calcium, why do you think it caused brain fog? Is brain fog a sign that you are getting calcium out of cells in the CNS? Sheesh, I think I could eat anything except natto.

Sheesh, again, I don't know what you mean about the hydroxyl radicals, but I'll look it up and stop taking the quercetin.

So when you say eliminate the source of the NOS and OS on the front end, do you mean in the gut with probiotics? If so, have you figured out a way to decrease side effects?

Do you think charcoal, clay, or diatomaceous earth are a good idea for getting the LPS out of the body instead of into the lymphatics and blood stream?

Thanks for you help,
Violeta

 

[Violeta]

@Anne, good idea on the aloe vera juice!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23911403

 

[Vegas]

@Vegas That part regarding the sulfate reducing bacteria is very interesting. Any more info on that?
>>Good gracious, that is an enormous topic in itself, but I have no idea what your level of knowledge is about this. You probably know that this was a very popular area of discussion about four years ago when a ME/CFS doctor concluded that SRB were nearly universally correlated with ME/CFS and the numbers of these organisms as estimated by a specific urine test positively correlated with ME/CFS severity. I hate to get into a big discussion because this not something I can go into quickly, but I will add a couple of quick points. Many SRB are among a group of organisms that are very important because of their pathogenicity. Their effects and their longevity is mediated by of producing hydrogen sulfide and their outer cell structures, which contain the aforementioned LPS and other antigenic components. The production of hydrogen sulfide has a number of adverse consequences, but the one I am most interested in is the effect on dehydrogenation, specifically the inhibition of a substance that is necessary for production of butyrate in the colon. In effect, SRB participate in maintaining intestinal permeability.

I have IBS-C (w. flatulence, anxiety, bad sleep, low energy, fodmap and egg intolerances) and I have quite the gut distress with RS and fermented foods/probiotics.

>>Yes, obviously a bacterial influence. Lots of those gram-negative pathogens have been associated with anxiety in autistics. Like campylobacter.

Then I introduced the Prescript-Assist SBO and N-Acetyl Cystein and now it's mostly back to where it was before. Sleep is less (somewhat restless sleep), mood is down as well and anxiety is up a bit again. After I introduced the Prescript-Assist probiotic I got some terrible smelling sulphuric gas. It's gotten somewhat less now.

A fight is being waged down there, I assume. I'm not sure how to proceed, but I think I just keep plodding along. The NAC and P-A supplementation can't be harmful,

>>I wouldn't highly recommend NAC, it is sort of like adding fuel to the fire. I think the Prescript assist is fine, and once you adjust, you will stop getting so much bacterial displacement. I would back off the RS a bit. You just don't want more than you can handle. What I have been describing is a progression from immunocompromised to immunocompetent. You are in that area in between where the renewed commensal bacteria are challenging the pathogens, but you are simultaneously "enjoying" the effects of the endotoxins. The right diet seems to help this quite a bit via a number of different mechanisms, as did the right fermented foods, but this is a lengthy process and I am still trying to figure it out myself. I'll try to share some ideas when I get a chance.

 

[Vegas]

His flatulence is often strong and unpleasant. Dark circles under his eyes always accompany his seemingly transient foul moods and stomach complaints. What does this indicate?

The thin skin and superficial vascularity gives you a window into the lymphatics. The swelling can be caused by a number of inflammatory factors, but I believe the discoloration is caused by melanin. Yeast are rich in melanin, but this is not the root of the problem. The unifying feature of microbial melanin production is that these microbes produce melanin as a result of oxidation of phenolic compounds; therefore, it is my suggestion that the microbes that are being displaced were rich in melanin because they contributed to the degradation of phenols. Many here will have difficulty catabolizing these same phenolic substances which includes a very diverse list including neurotransmitters, estradiol, the aromatic amino acids, Histidine, Tryphotophan, Tyrosine, and Phenylalanine, not to mention all the exogenous sources.


I'm sorry, what is SP?
Substance P


Daily: vitamin c, yogurt with added Natren bifido, and apple/applesauce for pectin.

If you didn't incubate the yogurt with bifido, I wouldn't worry about it, but if you did, this needs to be given in moderation.

Obviously I don't know how to post on this forum

 

[Vegas]

Thanks for this Vegas.

I looked at my tests and the only pro-inflammatory cytokine that is really elevated is IL 8 and that seems to be from taking GcMAF. IL-1β is normal. But I am raising the RA dose very, very slowly. It does help with bowel function if I also add a bit of extra magnesium. So far I am up to 2 teaspoons. I know that I have dysbiosis.

The only other symptom that you mentioned (that I am getting) is a slight puffiness under the eyes. Otherwise all is well.

You mentioned the possibility of "a major stressor on the Kupffer cells in the liver." I am about to add a medication that can be hard on the liver. Any thoughts on how that might interact with RA?

Sushi

I would expect elevation of multiple families of cyotokines over time. Have you tried B. Bifidum or Adolescentis. Did you test after the RS? If you have repeat testing, do post the direction of the cytokines.

I wouldn't worry too much about the liver based solely upon your symptoms. There is a continuum of symptoms and you are on the low end. What med are you talking about introducing?

 

[Vegas]

@Vegas, sounds exactly like my situation. VSL#3 and Prescript-Assist for a bit before starting RS, had great improvement in chronic constipation. After a couple of months of adding RS constipation returned.

I did test equivocal on Cyrex LPS IgG, and had the sulphur odor flatulence for the first couple of weeks of RS.

What's the best way to proceed with this?

You are going to lower the frequency and/or dosage and find one that works for you. Can you tolerate DMG, lecithin, or taurine? Personally I like epsom salt baths, and I find that my fermented sauerkraut (12+ weeks anaerobic) works well with maintaining regularity. There is a balance that needs to be achieved, and it changes with your immune status.

I think a negative or equivocal LPS result is not unexpected depending upon your ability to displace pathogens. Back in the day when I had severe symptoms I didn't have the immune response nor the organisms to mobilize endotoxins.

 

[xjhuez]

The thin skin and superficial vascularity gives you a window into the lymphatics. The swelling can be caused by a number of inflammatory factors, but I believe the discoloration is caused by melanin. Yeast are rich in melanin, but this is not the root of the problem. The unifying feature of microbial melanin production is that these microbes produce melanin as a result of oxidation of phenolic compounds; therefore, it is my suggestion that the microbes that are being displaced were rich in melanin because they contributed to the degradation of phenols. Many here will have difficulty catabolizing these same phenolic substances which includes a very diverse list including neurotransmitters, estradiol, the aromatic amino acids, Histidine, Tryphotophan, Tyrosine, and Phenylalanine, not to mention all the exogenous sources.

Thank you for the response. Oxidation of phenolic compounds.. ok, looks like I have some reading to do, as this is new info to me.

Substance P

Ah, ok. Yes, he often complains about nausea.

He's been off of the potato RS for two days and has returned to good, so I reintroduced it this morning in a smaller dose. We shall see. Impossible, at this point, to discern between suffering that's to be expected along the road to recovery and suffering due to something simply exacerbating the problem.

 

[dmholmes]

You are going to lower the frequency and/or dosage and find one that works for you.

I backed off the VSL#3, Prescript-Assist, resistant starch, and kefir completely for a bit without change in constipation. I still do a little sauerkraut daily. Starting the VSL#3 again, maybe some S. Boulardii, and kefir. I don't believe this will make a difference. The change to, and back from the chronic constipation was so quick I think there is something else going on.

Can you tolerate DMG, lecithin, or taurine? Personally I like epsom salt baths, and I find that my fermented sauerkraut (12+ weeks anaerobic) works well with maintaining regularity. There is a balance that needs to be achieved, and it changes with your immune status.

I believe I can tolerate all of them. To what end?

I think a negative or equivocal LPS result is not unexpected depending upon your ability to displace pathogens. Back in the day when I had severe symptoms I didn't have the immune response nor the organisms to mobilize endotoxins.

Campylobacter showed up in stool test from Dec. Would that contribute? I also have elevated antibodies for several bacteria and virus.

 

[Sushi]

I would expect elevation of multiple families of cyotokines over time. Have you tried B. Bifidum or Adolescentis. Did you test after the RS? If you have repeat testing, do post the direction of the cytokines.

I wouldn't worry too much about the liver based solely upon your symptoms. There is a continuum of symptoms and you are on the low end. What med are you talking about introducing?

I am taking B. Bifidum--earlier in VSL-3 and now in another product. It has never bothered me.

I haven't tested cytokines since starting resistant starch but when I test them again I'll report back.

I am going to be taking Rifampin, which can be hard on the liver. I will be getting liver panels while on it.

Thanks,
Sushi

 

[Violeta]

Interesting, I feel like I'm always battling fibrosis. It seems like taking care of gut health can help a great many deal of problems that we didn't necessarily think were connected.

I agree. If you google LPS the amount of diseases it shows up in is amazing. Fibrin plays part in fibromyalgia, and it was never clear to me what the trigger is. Same with calcium being deposited in the wrong places and not in the right places. Calcification of soft tissue is a big deal. I don't know if fibrin and soft tissue calcification can be broken down by simply displacing the gram negative bacteria in the gut. If the process is mostly contained in the gut, it might be an easier issue to deal with in the long run. Once you have buildup in organs, glands, intervertebral, those buildups I would think act as a sieve when more LPS is set free, causing a lot of discomfort. It might be good to figure out how to break up the congestions before setting too much LPS into the system.

 

[Violeta]

I am still amazed at how many syndromes can be traced to LPS! I was wondering if it had a part in insulin resistance, and yes, there are a lot of studies that say that it is! Incredible!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17456850

 

[anne_likes_red]

I am thinking that one of the possible reasons for bad side effects from LPS is that it is inducing fibrin production which is causing circulation problems. I think a systemic enzyme might be really helpful.

Thanks for your thoughts on that Violeta.
LPS has come up quite a bit in discussions in the ancestral health community over the past couple of years. Lots of tie-in with metabolic syndrome.
The aloe vera juice helps. It seems very calming to the gut. Thanks for the link to that study. I knew it was bifidogenic, but that seems like a very nice potential bonus! I just use the Lifestream brand - 20mls on an empty stomach 2 - 4 times a day...depending on how often I remember. I'll keep taking it until the bottle's finished anyway and see if I still feel I need it.

I think (!) I was able to determine that in itself the PS doesn't cause me problems.
I'm managing between 2 and 4 Tbsp every day, but since adding more solid food back in I am getting more of a reaction..of course that could have been going to happen anyway. It feels like yeast die off or similar, nothing acute. On the down side I am experiencing swollen glands and foggy/heavy feeling in the mornings. I'm usually relatively bright and active in the mornings so this is a definite change. I'm alternating between evening and morning doses for the PS and taking it as far away from food as possible.
...From the Free The Animal comments I think people are running into the most discomfort when they eat the starch with certain foods? Later on, after enough shift has taken place, I'd hope that wouldn't be so much of a problem?? I'll have to see in due course.
Sleep is rock solid and dreams are BIG. I'm more tired than usual in the evenings and I'm needing to get to sleep earlier. I've been sleeping about 9 hours...right up to the alarm clock. (Usually up at sunrise or just before.)
...I think this may due to dealing with some extra toxic load. Sometimes if I eat something that doesn't agree with me I get headaches or joint pain, but I've experienced none of that so far.
My blood sugar seems more stable....no jitteriness if I miss a meal - which I'm tending to do right now because I'm (a big sissy and...) keeping potentially problematic combinations at a respectable distance! I'm eating plenty, just less often in order to accommodate the RS, if that makes sense. Feels OK to me right now.
Probiotics - I'm taking L rham and B bifidum in coconut milk, and some coconut kefir and sauerkraut. I forgot to mention...last week when avoiding solids I took S boulardii capsules 2 x per day.
Anne.