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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Violeta

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Chris Kesser have written about histamine foods (fermented foods are on the list):

http://chriskresser.com/headaches-hives-and-heartburn-could-histamine-be-the-cause
Thanks, I will check that out. Someone on a different thread mentioned the carrot salad with coconut oil, and I might switch to that for a couple of days. I ate a couple of TBLS of coconut flakes and it helped with the spaciness but brought back the achiness:(

I wonder why lactic acid would be a problem for some and not others.
 

Vegas

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I am working my way up to PS, and yesterday took 1 Garden of Life SBO and a small serving of kimchi. I woke up this morning feeling as if I was hit by a truck, sick feeling in the head and all. I was wondering during the night how much of a part NO plays in the picture, because I had read that NO can be the cause of migraines.

I have this awful feeling of remembering only small incomplete pieces of information and being overwhelmed and too scattered to be able to figure things out.:confused: There's quite a few smiley faces that would work for this morning.:meh:
As you may have noticed me saying, I only use fermented vegetables that are fermented for relatively long periods of time and done so without oxygen. Kimchi and Sauerkraut that is not anaerobically fermented will typically be dominated by more aerotolerant organisms like, L. Plantarum and L. Brevis. These are going to have significant concentrations of amines. This would include putrescine, cadaverine, histamine, tyramine and 2-phenylethylamine. The amine content can be one of the contributors to headaches, I believe. In fact, I stopped eating store-bought fermented foods, in part because they would regularly give me headaches. Of course it doesn't have to be a consequence of amines; if you are rapidly increasing circulatory levels endotoxins by displacing bacteria this is going to have an inflammatory consequence on various tissues.

L. Plantarum in a capsule, and store-bought Kimchi caused some very unpleasant symptoms for me. L. Plantarum has tremendous ability to displace pathogens, but I think the adverse symptomatic profile may be due in part to the fact that these organisms don't also stimulate the same anti-inflammatory response where it is most needed. In other words, it is not as effective at neutralizing the effects produced by the endotoxins. My long, anaerobic fermented sauerkraut is dominated by obligate anaerobes, should be very low in amine-content, and doesn't produce any apparent adverse effects. Although, this still has to be used in moderation given the fact that it is still being used to modify intestinal microbiota. A long, anaerobic ferment would more likely to be dominated by Leuconostoc mesenteroides, an obligatively heterofermentative species.
 

Vegas

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I had a bit of sauerkraut today, and it made me feel awful. Headache, muscle ache, brain fog, fatgue, anxiety, etc. I don't think NO is part of it; I do not react like this to other things that increase NO. I wonder if it a detox reaction, or some kind of intolerance (histamine, lactid acid)?

I have also been taking some RS with bifido before bed for a while, and seem to tolerate it reasonably well.
Stay away from quick ferments with too much O2. See above. Despite this, you can still generate some pretty harsh symptoms even from the properly fermented organisms, but I think this would relate solely to the immune response: I think you are taking in some compounds that you cannot metabolize as well as experiencing some bacterial displacement.
 

Ripley

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For those with poor guts and reported problems with Psyllium, Dr. Grace/BG has updated her RS/SIBO protocol.

http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel.html

She now tells people with sensitive guts to use Green Banana Flour in lieu of Psyllium (if you can find it). She says that Psyllium doesn’t improve infectious colitis, whereas green banana and green plantain flours do.

Dr Grace BG said:
Two versions of 'bionic fiber' to heal the gut
VERSION A: Green banana flour 1-3 Tbs + Raw PS (potato starch) + high ORAC green powder in 2 cups water
VERSION B: Raw PS (potato starch) 1-3 Tbs + Psyllium (if not allergic) 1 Tbs + high ORAC green powder (I like Amazing Grass, LOL) in 2 cups of plenty water
 
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Vegas

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I am working my way up to PS, and yesterday took 1 Garden of Life SBO and a small serving of kimchi. I woke up this morning feeling as if I was hit by a truck, sick feeling in the head and all. I was wondering during the night how much of a part NO plays in the picture, because I had read that NO can be the cause of migraines.
.:meh:
Speaking of NO and migraines, there are actually a number of "diseases" that are now associated with NO dysregulation, but the GIT connections to these conditions are hard to ignore. For example with migraines, some of the most effective treatments are HDI's also called HDAC's, which are histone deacetylase inhibitors. This list includes a couple of things you may have heard of, including ketones and the anti-convulsant, valproic acid, which is commonly used to treat migraines as well as seizures. It turns out, though, that the best inhibitor of histone deacetylase we already have in place working for us everyday, it is a bacterial derived SCFA: butyrate. Butyrate has been discussed on this forum in the past for treatment of seizure disorders, and from my perspective, these conditions are biochemically very similar, but I think the logical extension is that Butyrate, or a lack thereof, is going to have a pronounced effect on the urea cycle and the metabolism of amines, which is derived from ammonia. This is part of the reason why you shouldn't be adding to the existing burden of metabolizing amines.
 

Violeta

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Speaking of NO and migraines, there are actually a number of "diseases" that are now associated with NO dysregulation, but the GIT connections to these conditions are hard to ignore. For example with migraines, some of the most effective treatments are HDI's also called HDAC's, which are histone deacetylase inhibitors. This list includes a couple of things you may have heard of, including ketones and the anti-convulsant, valproic acid, which is commonly used to treat migraines as well as seizures. It turns out, though, that the best inhibitor of histone deacetylase we already have in place working for us everyday, it is a bacterial derived SCFA: butyrate. Butyrate has been discussed on this forum in the past for treatment of seizure disorders, and from my perspective, these conditions are biochemically very similar, but I think the logical extension is that Butyrate, or a lack thereof, is going to have a pronounced effect on the urea cycle and the metabolism of amines, which is derived from ammonia. This is part of the reason why you shouldn't be adding to the existing burden of metabolizing amines.
@Vegas, I've never heard of HDI's, but the information about the urea cycle is where I came into this conversation to begin with, and I had just been thinking I should go back to the original messages and reread them. When I get migraines they are definitely accompanied with gut issues. I will look up the HDI's, but most importantly, I'll take butyrate more seriously.

I had known that purines and the urea cycle were the cause of a lot, if not all, of my problems. This explanation coming from a different angle helps me a lot!

Thanks again so much, you'll never know how much I appreciate your help.

I don't know if you ever thought that when you were going through the worst of your problems that because of it you would then be able to help others.
 
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Ripley

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Green Banana Flour can now be purchased in the US! :angel:

http://amzn.com/B00HGJ7VAU

This is a brand new company that just launched their product. I encourage everyone to try it, especially if you are having issues with PS.

For those outside of the US, or who want to save some cash, I encourage you to to simply buy your own green bananas, keep them in the fridge (or freezer) until ready to use. You can slit them down the side with a knife and peel them with ease. Give it a try! It seems to offer very good results.

You can use Tim Steele's RS table for reference on RS levels.
 
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Ripley

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I got some of the Tiger Nuts last week, pretty decent.
My gut didn't react well to unpeeled tiger nuts, even though I soaked them and I have a fairly healthy gut. The peels have a lot of insoluble fiber and I'm sure I don't have the bacteria for digesting insoluble fiber, since I usually avoid it.

The peeled ones are good, but even those I can't eat more than a handful or two without getting a mild stomach pain the next day. I guess that's what you get for avoiding foods like that for too long.

The good news is that I made horchata, where you strain out most of the insoluble fiber and I had no problems with that. The bad news is that a small glass of tiger nut milk costs roughly $9 :rolleyes:
 

zzz0r

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Has anyone here from the CFS forums seen any improvement with RS? I have been watching all the conversation in the thread, but it is too much discussion over nothing.. I do not know if people in the forum where Ripley is participating, have seen any improvement and what is their health background and problems but I would like to chat with at least on person that has seen major improvement.
 

adreno

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Stay away from quick ferments with too much O2. See above. Despite this, you can still generate some pretty harsh symptoms even from the properly fermented organisms, but I think this would relate solely to the immune response: I think you are taking in some compounds that you cannot metabolize as well as experiencing some bacterial displacement.
Thanks, I will stay away from store bought fermented foods. I guess I will have to learn how to ferment my own foods. In the meantime, do you have any probiotic recommendations? I saw in another post that you like bifido, I'm already taking those.

The reason I'm confused is because my GI fx showed low lactic acid bacteria, and high PH (alkaline). So it seems I need lactid acid bacteria, but at the same time I seem to react negatively to lactid acid containing probiotics. So is this because of bacterial displacement, or could something else be going on?
 

adreno

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Has anyone here from the CFS forums seen any improvement with RS? I have been watching all the conversation in the thread, but it is too much discussion over nothing.. I do not know if people in the forum where Ripley is participating, have seen any improvement and what is their health background and problems but I would like to chat with at least on person that has seen major improvement.
I can definitely say that RS is very powerful. It is throwing my homeostasis around, like nothing I have ever tried before.

First of all, the blood sugar stability effects are amazing. I do not get the extreme the afternoon crashes I used to, and sleep is improved. I can go longer between meals, and don't get the coldness and brain fog from low blood sugar.

Second, there seem to be strong hormonal effects. I think I've figured out why I got so much anxiety from the RS; I believe it is really kickstarting my thyroid. I have been taking 1000mcg iodine for a long time to stimulate a sluggish thyroid, but since starting the RS I now got symptoms of hyperthyroidism, so I've had to stop the iodine.

Also I think it has effects on the HPA axis hormones. I have struggled with low adrenal output for many years, and though I haven't done any blood tests lately, I feel a definite change. I have literally had to gorge on salt before, and heavily salted all my food and water, but now I'm finding I have to reduce my salt intake. Even orthostatic intolerance is much improved, and I can stand and walk for longer.

I do hesitate to write this post, as these effects might only be temporary, but I have faith that RS (or in reality gut dysbiosis) is a major factor in my illness.
 
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adreno did you have fatigue in the beggining?how many tbs RS you take?with psylium?and how many weeks you take it?
 
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aprilk1869

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This might go towards explaining the benefits on thyroid hormones...

The gut-bacteria-thyroid connection

One little known role of the gut bacteria is to assist in converting inactive T4 into the active form of thyroid hormone, T3. About 20 percent of T4 is converted to T3 in the GI tract, in the forms of T3 sulfate (T3S) and triidothyroacetic acid (T3AC). The conversion of T3S and T3AC into active T3 requires an enzyme called intestinal sulfatase.

Where does intestinal sulfatase come from? You guessed it: healthy gut bacteria. Intestinal dysbiosis, an imbalance between pathogenic and beneficial bacteria in the gut, significantly reduces the conversion of T3S and T3AC to T3. This is one reason why people with poor gut function may have thyroid symptoms but normal lab results.
http://chriskresser.com/the-thyroid-gut-connection
 

xjhuez

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I had a bit of sauerkraut today, and it made me feel awful. Headache, muscle ache, brain fog, fatgue, anxiety, etc. I don't think NO is part of it; I do not react like this to other things that increase NO. I wonder if it a detox reaction, or some kind of intolerance (histamine, lactid acid)?
I also get brain fog and feel generally awful after strong probiotics or fermented veggies (I tolerate yogurt fine). I have no idea why it happens.

I'm up to 3 tbs of Bob's potato starch and feeling pretty good.
 

Vegas

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@Vegas

I don't know the science but when I've treated gut infections with xifaxin, migraines have disappeared.

Sushi
That's cool that rifaximin resolved the migraines. I think this is consistent with what I was saying about migraines and the GIT. While I personally think the use of antibiotics to modify gut microbiota generally represents a misguided treatment approach for dysbiosis, xifaxin, is unlike other antibiotics. That is not to say it doesn't have adverse effects, but it acts very differently. Obviously, those who have taken it know about its profile of being poorly absorbed in the GIT and concentrating its effects in the luminal components versus having systemic effects, but the really interesting thing it does is modify the intestinal lining. It has been shown to influence some of the genes that I discussed in this thread, including alkaline phosphatase, and some of those involved in histone acetylation. In effect it has been shown to favorably effect host physiology to protect us from pathogenic bacteria. I believe the genes that were shown to have been upregulated or downregulated in response to rifaximin suggests that it can confer benefits to the epithelial tissues of the GIT. I'm not really certain about what adverse consequences may result, including its effect on commensals, and while having wide activity against pathogens, it is certainly not going to be effective against many pathogens. Nevertheless, it sounds like it could be helpful for others; perhaps depending upon the constitution of their microbiota.

The manufacturer of xifaxin is ramping up their marketing in the US to treat hepatic encephalopathy, which shares many similarities with ME/CFS. I have been learning from the treatment and failures of this liver disease. They have been using lactulose, which is just galactose + fructose, to treat this condition for years along with much nastier antibiotics. This was one of the first medical applications of a prebiotic. I can see them shifting to another prebiotic in the future, perhaps GOS, pure galactose, or good old potato starch. Another shift is also happening in the treatment of this condition, as researchers are looking at using more friendly probiotics, those that will diminish the lactate accumulation.

I'm curious, did you also enjoy any other symptomatic improvement/ benefits from the xifaxin, or is this hard to say given the other stuff you were taking? Does KDM still use this as a mainstay of treatment?
 

bertiedog

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Pam

It seems that H&B have it as Potato Flour. I bought some and it seems to be the right one. Otherwise Amazon and iherb.
Thanks for the info. I notice that the H & B potato flour has 77g carbs per 100 g and 3.5g sugars whereas Bob''s Red Mill Potato Starch has approximately 80g carb and 0g sugar. Would there be a problem with bs spikes does anybody know if one used the H & B potato flour?

Blood sugar issues have always been one of my main problems and continue to be but now they go too high and stay there unless I exercise but that is because I have to take a steroid every day. I still have normal blood sugar readings of around 4.6 fasting, its the ones after eating are the problem where I have difficulty getting my readings to go below 6 unless i go for a good 20 minute walk. However I then feel like all my energy is used up and just have to eat to feel better!

Obviously there is a big difference in price between the 2 products but I definitely don't want to buy anything that is going to make my bs problems worse.

Thanks

Pam
 

Vegas

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Thanks, I will stay away from store bought fermented foods. I guess I will have to learn how to ferment my own foods. In the meantime, do you have any probiotic recommendations? I saw in another post that you like bifido, I'm already taking those.

The reason I'm confused is because my GI fx showed low lactic acid bacteria, and high PH (alkaline). So it seems I need lactid acid bacteria, but at the same time I seem to react negatively to lactid acid containing probiotics. So is this because of bacterial displacement, or could something else be going on?
Some probiotics are clearly better than others, but I no longer take any because I found fermented foods to be vastly superior for their strength; because they are "packaged" with macro and micronutrients that physically and chemically protect them, nurture them, allow them to pass through the the upper intestinal tract, etc.; and because I have control over the fermentation process including manipulation of O2 and CO2.

It is very confusing, one can have high or low Bifidobacterial and LAB counts, but you honestly need to know what species/subspecies are represented to understand how this might affect you. In someone with ME/CFS, looking purely at commensal bacteria, I think you will see an over-representation of aerotolerant species, like acidophilus and fewer numbers and species of bacteria that have exclusively anaerobic metabolisms, which would include group III LAB and others. I think the other thing that is likely is an under-representation of high-O2-sensitive bifidus strains and a scarcity of commensal Clostridial species that are crossfed by these Bifidus strains.

I believe the effects of bacterial metabolism on the host is consequential in a number of ways, including fundamental consequences on energy metabolism. The adverse consequences of some of the byproducts of metabolism created by homofermentative organisms, would influence lactate metabolism adversely by shifting towards an accumulation of lactate. This form of bacterial metabolism will disproportionately produce lactate, whereas those I think may be beneficial will produce more acetate. This may be critical for restoring/maintaining intestinal integrity and lowering pH in the lower intestinal tract.

Part of the reason people get relief from avoiding simpler sugars like glucose and fructose is because these yield higher concentrations of lactate versus acetate as compared to other saccharides. The microbial balance needs to also shift; diet alone will not right the ship. Although, as you are seeing with the PS, we are "cheating" of sorts by laying down an preferred substrate and influencing the acetate/lactate ratio, SCFA production in general, among other things.

You probably do have low numbers of LAB, and those that you do have are probably more aerotolerant, but your bacterial synthesis of SCFA is probably abysmal. As I see it, this is a problem of dehydrogenation, and pH is all about hydrogen. When lactic acid is completely oxidized it yields 70% more hydrogen ions, per mole of ATP, than acetic acid. In this regard, you don't want your bacterial metabolism to add to the load. will have to elaborate on this when I have more time, particularly about the osmolarity in the GIT, and the effect of malabsorption.