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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Ripley

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Hey guys,

I got in touch with Tim and Richard to tell them about the progress that's gone on here. @Gestalt 's 45-day recovery has caught their attention for sure. Tim Steele wanted me to pass on a few tips to you guys — even though most of you are already well aware of these recommendations:

He recommends eating fermented food every day, yogurt, sauerkraut, kimchi, kefir, kombucha, whatever you guys can handle. AOR Probiotic-3, Prescript Assist, Primal Flora, Saccharomyces boulardii, for those who feel comfortable taking them (can't be severely immune compromised).

He also said:
Tim Steele said:
Here's good paper on fermented foods/brain.
...
Potato starch may be good enough for some, but not all.

They should also be eating lots of fibery foods, big ass salads, raw broccoli, fruit, psyllium husk, quinoa, buckwheat, that sort of stuff--it will help the bacteria digest the PS and create even more SCFA and immune regulating T-Cells.
Nice work everybody. It's been an interesting month.
 
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@Gestalt re timing, that's interesting! When I trialled bigger doses initially, I was taking them at 5pm. Later I started taking them just before bed. I've been suffering increased tiredness and an intense feeling of needing to sleep right now....all day long.
...I haven't needed daytime sleeps (or even rests) for a couple of years so this has been quite a striking change.
I'm inspired to play around with timing now to see if I can improve the sleepiness because, same as you, other things are markedly improved.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
...And everyone else too...
 

Vegas

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I didn't know you could make sauerkraut in a sealed container. That takes care of my other concern of developing unwanted byproducts.

I did have an allergy to nickel in jewelry, but it has cleared up. My earrings still turn red, though. I don't know what that means. Why do you ask?
I was just curious, because I think a contact nickel allergy would be strongly associated with intestinal permeability. A few years some researchers figured out that nickel could induce activation of TLR4, and this was not replicated in animals, only humans. TLR4 is a protein, which of course has a corresponding gene. It is relevant in that it senses and responds to LPS and sets into motion an inflammatory cascade. Looking at TLR4 agonists, you will see a number of very nasty compounds, including many opioids, which may suggest that the very common "morphine allergy" is a histamine response mediated by sensitivity to LPS. I wonder about the combined incidence of contact nickel allergy and morphine allergy. Alcohol is also on this list. Actually, I recognize some of these compounds as being alkaloids, which I already suggested may be a problem for you. Some other ME/CFS folks seem react to these substances with an inflammatory or histamine response.

What is interesting, at least to me, is that those substances known to suppress TLR4 include the antibiotics, azithromycin and cyclobenzabrine, I know the former has a very modest impact on microbiota, and naltrexone. I think benefits from these drugs may principally correlate to the reduction of inflammation produced by LPS, or not.
 

adreno

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@Ripley

So clealy there are differences between what Tim recommends and the PHD, as Tim (and Dr. BG) recommends to eat things like buckwheat, quinoa and soaked legumes. What's your opinion on this difference, do you think those things are safe for us to eat?
 

brenda

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I'm backing down with the RS from 2Tbsp to one level Tbsp as I am having low blood sugar issues. Well I presume it is that as I have been having adrenal awakenings through the night. I tried taking it at 5pm instead of bedtime but it made no difference. I tried eating a snack before bed and that did not help. So I am taking 1 level Tbsp in the morning to see how that goes.

I started off taking bifido probiotic then changed to Mattaflor (e-coli) prescribed by my doc and has done me good in the past, then added L-rhamnosus 20 mill+ also prescribed by her but it increased histamine. So I changed it for bifidobac complex (bifido, longum, lactis, breve). These have all been prescribed by my doc so I need to trial them. She also gave me a pre-biotic but that increased histamine.

I have just got some psyllium husk but will have to leave it out till I trial the probiotics.

Sleep is better though still awakening around 4am. Dreams are brilliant! A bit of gas. Other than that no change.

I have nickel allergy and cannot take ferments due to histamine..
 

MeSci

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Heisenbug has a new post worth reading:

Anthropology & Science: Is L. Plantarum a Keystone Bacteria for Human Health?

Mr Heisenbug said:

Recently, I discovered that L. plantarum — the dominant bacterial strain in fermented plant foods like kimchi and sauerkraut — cures my hand eczema. I initially discovered this by noticing that I hadn’t experienced any eczema in the past two years, during which I consumed these foods on a near daily basis. And I then noticed that once I stopped consuming them last fall, my eczema returned. I hypothesize that not only was it these foods that kept the eczema away, but that it was specifically the probiotic bacteria that was creating the effect, because probiotic bacteria are known to primarily act through immune system modulation. And eczema is an allergy-related disease that is a product of an abnormal immune system response. So to test this hypothesis, I obtained a probiotic supplement containing a pure, isolated form of L. plantarum. Within three days of taking the supplement, my eczema had completely cleared.

Since then, multiple reports from readers of this blog (and elsewhere) have tried the experiment and replicated the results. And they have worked for other immune/allergy-related conditions as well, which was something I also hypothesized in my original report.
I got a remission of my hand dermatitis/eczema, and anxiety, and insomnia, and sinus congestion (etc.) from my 'palaeo-vegan' diet. I had suffered from the dermatitis for decades and it had got really bad, splitting and bleeding. The sinus congestion had also been getting worse, and nothing bought or prescribed would help with either. I haven't taken any probiotics, and don't eat anything fermented except a tiny smear of pickle with my gluten-free bread. I have been vegan for over 30 years, but it was quitting gluten, reducing grains and avoiding added sugar that did it.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
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I was just curious, because I think a contact nickel allergy would be strongly associated with intestinal permeability. A few years some researchers figured out that nickel could induce activation of TLR4, and this was not replicated in animals, only humans. TLR4 is a protein, which of course has a corresponding gene. It is relevant in that it senses and responds to LPS and sets into motion an inflammatory cascade. Looking at TLR4 agonists, you will see a number of very nasty compounds, including many opioids, which may suggest that the very common "morphine allergy" is a histamine response mediated by sensitivity to LPS. I wonder about the combined incidence of contact nickel allergy and morphine allergy. Alcohol is also on this list. Actually, I recognize some of these compounds as being alkaloids, which I already suggested may be a problem for you. Some other ME/CFS folks seem react to these substances with an inflammatory or histamine response.
Just want to point out that a lot of ME people seem to get significant benefit from opioids. If you put 'opioid' in the site search box you will find numerous posts stating this, although there are indeed also people who react badly to them.
 

MeSci

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@Ripley

So clealy there are differences between what Tim recommends and the PHD, as Tim (and Dr. BG) recommends to eat things like buckwheat, quinoa and soaked legumes. What's your opinion on this difference, do you think those things are safe for us to eat?
Not @Ripley, but there seems to be quite a high level of intolerance to buckwheat. I ditched it early on in my GF diet as I seemed to get worse with it, but I can't be sure, as overexertion causes similar problems to dietary errors.
 
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I know this was mentioned somewhere but cannot find it. I live in the UK and would like to know where I can try the resistant starch from potatoes?

Many thanks

Pam
Hi Pam,
I obtain my PS from this outlet...It is Honig brand...I bought it from the site below.....good enough price but shipping everywhere adds to the cost...

http://dutchexpatshop.com/en/food/meals/dutch-cuisine/honig-potato-starch.html
It is very cheap but the shipping adds to the cost....I posted earlier around Thread No 20 on this...
 

dmholmes

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So clealy there are differences between what Tim recommends and the PHD, as Tim (and Dr. BG) recommends to eat things like buckwheat, quinoa and soaked legumes. What's your opinion on this difference, do you think those things are safe for us to eat?
For me, I think they are okay if you tolerate them. They each have detrimental aspects to watch for. Chris Kresser wrote a piece on legumes recently.
 

xjhuez

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He recommends eating fermented food every day, yogurt, sauerkraut, kimchi, kefir, kombucha, whatever you guys can handle.
What is the view on why some of us can't "handle" fermented foods? (fermented veggies make me feel ill). Die off? Immune response from endotoxins/LPS? A reaction to some other by-product?

Also, if wikipedia is correct, LSP is fever-inducing. Makes me wonder if increased body temp would be an indicator.
 

Vegas

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Just want to point out that a lot of ME people seem to get significant benefit from opioids. If you put 'opioid' in the site search box you will find numerous posts stating this, although there are indeed also people who react badly to them.
Yes, my weakness and greatest analytical strength is that I am a generalist. I have a tendency to generalize about things, like my characterization of opioids. At the same time, having a general knowledge of many parts of this, I think, allows me to see patterns that perhaps someone with intense specialization would never see. The increasing super-specialization of our medical/scientific community has its detriments; we need more RVK's, more unifiers, more people who look at things macroscopically. Unfortunately, the market is not supporting this. I talk to physicians most every day, and I find that the primary care specialist are among the best problem solvers because they see the whole problem, yet there are financial incentives to specialize. The specialists are disproportionately compensated, and this trend is worsening, at least here in the US.

One of the most interesting things to me is the chemical duality I see in nature, and opioids are a perfect example. Morphine is a plant alkaloid, and an amine, and like other alkaloids can provoke wildly different reactions in those with ME/CFS. The distinction between anti and pro-inflammatory substances can be hard to make. I think people have to ask, does a substances short term benefits exceed its long term effects. This can be highly subjective. Long term, something like morphine, which depletes glutathione and should have a negative net ROS consequence, among other things, would seem to do more harm than good, but if someone is hurting, well you do what you have to do. It's a shame that we have so little guidance in these matters, but our symptoms do seem to be the most reliable indicator we have.

The list of TLR4 agonist and antagonist, which includes Ampligen is a curious list with some patients tolerating one or the other, and not that much overlap. Actually, this biochemistry/immunology thing, which I am just learning, makes more sense when one looks at a chemicals as having necessary functions instead of being good or bad. An amine like histamine is not simply a yucky thing that makes us itch, it modulates an immune response. In the case of LPS, it binds to these molecules and is protective.

Whether or not someone does well with a TLR4 agonist or antagonist may have to do with ones sensitization and level exposure to LPS (I guess I'm not really a generalist since I am so fixated on LPS and there are obviously other plausible explanation) and thus the expression of ones immune system as a consequence of ones bacterial balance and capacity to render these substances inert. More importantly, though than any weak hypothesis from me, though is a question for those who are looking at ME/CFS: Why is there an intersection at TLR4, which is the signature for LPS?
 

Vegas

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Also, if wikipedia is correct, LSP is fever-inducing. Makes me wonder if increased body temp would be an indicator.
No fever is not likely, in most, and if it is experienced, I would expect it to be episodic. LPS is a pyrogen, but it takes a very substantial concentration to induce fever. It only happened to me once, and that was the very first time I was exposed to supplemental bifidobacteria, about 4 years ago when my immune system was in a very different state. It lasted for about a day, and was not severe, but what was happening was very obviously an inflammatory response. I would only expect fever if someone is very sick and perhaps only once after a significant exposure to a commensal organism is introduced. Repeated exposure will mediate the subsequent responses.

There are other explanations for an increase in body temp not caused by fever; mine has come up, a bit, which I think is a secondary consequence of the SCFA. I largely attribute this to the PS and I think this reflects a fundamental change in energy metabolism.
 
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adreno

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I'm guessing that curcumin or turmeric might be helpful for the endotoxin induced inflammation.
 

Vegas

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For me, I think they are okay if you tolerate them. They each have detrimental aspects to watch for. Chris Kresser wrote a piece on legumes recently.
I'm guessing that curcumin or turmeric might be helpful for the endotoxin induced inflammation.
Maybe, maybe not. With curcumin/turmeric, compounds that dramatically increase cysteine and of course have other properties, I think there are many, many factors that can come into play and you are going to have to base this on your symptoms. Cysteine is involved in so many relevant enzymatic reactions. I use to love curcumin and turmeric, then I became very sensitive as my cysteine metabolism "normalized," and I experimented probiotics/fermented foods. Now my tolerance to this is steadily increasing,and I don't get the same pro-inflammatory symptoms. In other words, these don't produce nearly the same adverse effects they did before as I have altered the GIT, positively. Do you have any organic acids test results?
 

aprilk1869

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So far I haven't experienced the vivid dreams other people have noted (I have dreams but they're usually pretty vague). So last week I decided to take 1 Tbs of PS an hour before bed (in addition to 1 Tbs I had earlier in the day) and ended up having a very disturbed night and was very hot.

The next day I took a took another 1 Tbs of PS an hour before bed (in addition to 1 Tbs I had earlier in the day) and had another disturbed sleep and woke up with a pounding headache which lasted several hours. This is very unusual for me because it's been years since I've had a headache.

After that I decided just to take the PS earlier in the day and that's what I'm going to tell my parents. It's interesting that other people have noticed problems with late night PS too.
 

Ripley

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@Ripley

So clealy there are differences between what Tim recommends and the PHD, as Tim (and Dr. BG) recommends to eat things like buckwheat, quinoa and soaked legumes. What's your opinion on this difference, do you think those things are safe for us to eat?
For me, I think they are okay if you tolerate them. They each have detrimental aspects to watch for. Chris Kresser wrote a piece on legumes recently.
@adreno I have to agree with @dmholmes. PHD is a fantastic elimination diet that you can stay on indefinitely. Seriously, it's that good. The choice is yours. But, Kresser believes that there are healthy non-Paleo foods out there that can be well tolerated in moderation. So, after 30 days or so of PHD, you can start introducing safer non-PHD foods and see how you do. In other words, use the PHD as an elimination diet that you can always revert back to and thrive on.

Chris Kresser — whom I'm also a big fan of — had a fantastic podcast where he defended his recommendations for including some non-official Paleo foods into one's diet if you can tolerate them. Interestingly, Kresser does not eat legumes even though he approves of them when properly prepared for those who can tolerate them.

Please, please make an effort to listen to this podcast episode, because Chris — who considers himself a "Paleo" author — pretty much explains why the "Paleo" dogma is cultish bullshit.

The Paleo Solution Podcast – Episode 214: Guest: Chris Kresser

So, if you do well on Buckwheat as you add it in. Go for it. There are well documented allergic reactions to Buckwheat, but if you don't get them, there's no reason why you can't eat some. Personally I stick to the PHD on most days, but I have a fairly healthy gut and I deviate 20% of the time with foods I know I can tolerate.

I will say that it's possible that removing a food for too long can result in a lack of the bacteria that help digest those foods. So, you can get a perceived "intolerance" to a food that you didn't have before by not eating it enough, but the reality is that you just have less of the bacteria needed to digest it. It probably takes a long time for that to happen though.
 
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adreno

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Do you have any organic acids test results?
I do, but they are rather old. What are you looking for?

Btw, I forgot I had those results, and just saw that both l-lactate and d-lactate are high. Do this mean I should avoid LABs, even though they are low in my GI fx? Incidently, they recommend Q10, lipoic acid and B1/B2/B3/B5 for high lactate.
 
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