The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[thomas_3000]

I will say that it's possible that removing a food for too long can result in a lack of the bacteria that help digest those foods. So, you can get a perceived "intolerance" to a food that you didn't have before by not eating it enough, but the reality is that you just have less of the bacteria needed to digest it. It probably takes a long time for that to happen though.

In cases like these, will re-introducing foods cause the necessary bacteria to regrow/repopulate the gut? This is a question I've been dealing with.

On a related note, some recent research shows that a peanut allergy can be cured by slowly and gradually increasing the dose of peanut in patients. This is analogous to Chris Kresser's opinion on lactose-intolerance: almost nobody is lactose-intolerant, if you start small and slowly build it up you'll be able to tolerate it over time (funnily enough, Tim Ferriss had proclaimed this years ago in a post on gaining muscle mass).

So, could most 'intolerances' be cured by just slowly adding it in? I don't think this would work in cases of SIBO, as you're feeding the wrong bacteria (the one in your small intestines instead of in the colon).

 

[Sushi]

I think I may have discovered something very critical in terms of timing when taking RS.

When first starting RS I was taking 2 tbsp twice a day. One around noon, and another dose right before bed. As I stated before, on the whole my Chronic fatigue symptoms got worse in terms of overall energy, despite having better temperature and blood glucose regulation & digestion.

I switched to one large bolus dose of 4tbsp right before bed after @Ripley had the idea that taking more at once may be better in terms of having it make it to the colon. The fatigue symptoms got worse, and I had a brutal time pulling myself out of bed in the morning and was exhausted all day long. Again despite improvements in virtually every other metric that RS is known to improve.

This was extremely frustrating, taking something that made me feel simultaneously better and worse at the same time but in different ways. The thing I desired most.... being energy, was worse. The other metric such as improved digestion and regulation were nice but not what I was after.

One night I woke up after 3-4 hours, still a bit tired but strangely energized. Not the brutal exhaustion I experienced before. It made me think maybe I should sleep less, perhaps I was oversleeping by sleeping 7-8 hrs and something whack was happening with my hormones like melatonin.

RS appears to be a prime food for bifido bacteria such as B.Infantis which has a critical role in producing serotonin. Serotonin is the precursor to Melatonin and I thought maybe I was producing WAY too much leading to me feeling drugged an exhausted right when I should be waking up.

Also I know personally my gut motility is hugely impaired while lying down. When sitting or standing upright gravity seems to help a lot in terms of moving things along my GI tract, so perhaps the RS was getting fully fermented before even reaching the colon when taking it right before bedtime.

But then I also thought about transit times:


With a transit time from mouth to colon being about 3-5 hours I decided to take 3-4tbsp of RS 5 hours before bedtime instead of right before bed. This made a HUGE difference in terms of my energy and well-being the following day. We are talking about going from a 3-4 on the energy scale and then subsequently after making the change in timing, going all the way to a 8-9.

I am at the point now where I feel nearly cured of CFS! I am now getting all the benefits touted from RS, and wow what an improvement!

I think there is a powerful neurotransmitter/hormonal connection here with RS and the bacteria which has a much bigger impact than I even thought was possible. Prior to the timing change I think RS may have been producing abundant Seratonin and subsequently melatonin right at the time I should be waking up thus making me feel exhausted. Now however I am getting the beneficial effects at the time when they benefit me the most, leading to restful rejuvenating sleep. In fact I need less sleep now than before, AND I have twice as much energy during the day.

It's also possible there are some critical detox mechanisms going to work right at sleep time and perhaps having abundant SCFA's at those times may be very important. I'd be curious for other people to experiment with timing to see if they get a similar result.

I had been having a bad few days after taking 1 1/2 tablespoons at bedtime for a week (I had built up to this dose very slowly)--headaches, loss of appetite, general fluishness. I stopped for a few days but got no improvement. After reading Gestalt's post yesterday, I tried taking RS 5 hours before bedtime. I feel fine today and needed less sleep. Let's see what happens with this timing.

Sushi

 

[Ripley]

In cases like these, will re-introducing foods cause the necessary bacteria to regrow/repopulate the gut? This is a question I've been dealing with.

It depends. This question was asked on Kresser's podcast when Jaminet was on. Here's a snippet from the interview:

With things like the seaweed, it’s really more hit or miss, can you acquire the bacteria that are able to digest these things. And that can take years or decades. Even in Japan only like 30 or 40% of people have these bacteria that can digest these particular polysaccharides in the seaweed, and seaweed consumption is very common there. In America it’s nearly zero, and your best chance would be to eat some raw seaweed, from the ocean. So these bacteria live on these things in ocean and that would be your best chance to get those genes, and to eat that kind of seaweed regularly. But most people eat pretty well cooked seaweed and so Ayers does recommend eating locally grown organic food without washing it in order to get the bacteria that live on them. And that will help diversify your gut floras and that can definitely be beneficial. But it’s not a guaranteed cure and it might take a very long time to really get all of the bacteria that will help you digest something well.

In a way that's good news for evolution. Means the populations of gut bugs (and their influence on genetics) in a species can adjust quicker than the species itself and impart tolerance relatively quickly on an evolutionary timeline.

 

[Vegas]

So far I haven't experienced the vivid dreams other people have noted (I have dreams but they're usually pretty vague). So last week I decided to take 1 Tbs of PS an hour before bed (in addition to 1 Tbs I had earlier in the day) and ended up having a very disturbed night and was very hot.
.

I have found there to be transitional periods when I stumbled upon a missing nutrient, co-factor, etc. It takes a while for the body to compensate metabolically. Of course, increased energy doesn't necessarily mean increased efficiency. I think some of this energy is being wasted as heat, and eventually, your cellular machinery will get used to this. I've been trying to raise my temperature for years, and just now crossed the 97 degree threshold. For anyone who has held a consistent 95 F (35 C) they know how brutal this can be. I would love to see some serial thyroid numbers on those who track this and are taking PS.

 

[Vegas]

I do, but they are rather old. What are you looking for?

Btw, I forgot I had those results, and just saw that both l-lactate and d-lactate are high. Do this mean I should avoid LABs, even though they are low in my GI fx? Incidently, they recommend Q10, lipoic acid and B1/B2/B3/B5 for high lactate.

Krebs cycle metabolites and fatty acids. Particularly interested in succinate.

Should you avoid LAB's? Well, if what you are saying about the recommended nutrients is true, I think you likely don't have the capacity to metabolize lactate very efficiently. Combined with a finding of low LAB, yes, I would probably stick with organisms that are going to have only a modest lactate contribution.

 

[Vegas]

I had been having a bad few days after taking 1 1/2 tablespoons at bedtime for a week (I had built up to this dose very slowly)--headaches, loss of appetite, general fluishness. I stopped for a few days but got no improvement. After reading Gestalt's post yesterday, I tried taking RS 5 hours before bedtime. I feel fine today and needed less sleep. Let's see what happens with this timing.

Sushi

For what it is worth, I think your symptoms are not at all unexpected. I also don't think you are making matters worse, but rather likely making gains that will later be realized. There will be symptoms that vacillate and seem to contradict what non-ME/CFSer's experience. Fatigue alternating with more energy, stable "blood sugar" vs. hypo symptoms. The cytokine or fluishness can persist for up to a week or two,or even more. Achiness in the back and lymphatic soreness is a pretty reliable predictor of this. I will have to post the full continuum of symptoms I have experienced to see if this makes sense, but the PS is symptomatically sort of like what I have been doing with commensal organisms for the last year paired with a burst of energy. I still feel like crap, but I am seemingly making much faster progress.

 

[adreno]

Krebs cycle metabolites and fatty acids. Particularly interested in succinate.

See attached.

Should you avoid LAB's? Well, if what you are saying about the recommended nutrients is true, I think you likely don't have the capacity to metabolize lactate very efficiently. Combined with a finding of low LAB, yes, I would probably stick with organisms that are going to have only a modest lactate contribution.

Fermented foods are full of LABs, so this might be a problem. I could perhaps try the SBOs. I might also try to up my R-ALA dose (taking 100mg now).

 

[Gestalt]

Are you taking any probiotics with that RS?

Didn't answer your question before. But yes, I rotate/randomly take VSL#3, CP-11, Prescript Assist, B.Bifidus & B.Infantis. I take these w/ 4 Tbsp. PS and Cocovia for the supposed bifidogenic flavanols.

I am picking up AOR Prebiotic3 today and also yesterday started with L.Plantarum. Also gonna try bimuno soon as well.

Yes, my weakness and greatest analytical strength is that I am a generalist. I have a tendency to generalize about things, like my characterization of opioids. At the same time, having a general knowledge of many parts of this, I think, allows me to see patterns that perhaps someone with intense specialization would never see. The increasing super-specialization of our medical/scientific community has its detriments; we need more RVK's, more unifiers, more people who look at things macroscopically. Unfortunately, the market is not supporting this. I talk to physicians most every day, and I find that the primary care specialist are among the best problem solvers because they see the whole problem, yet there are financial incentives to specialize. The specialists are disproportionately compensated, and this trend is worsening, at least here in the US.

Being a generalist or a specialist is a function of personality type. iNtuitives are generalists and Sensors are specialists according to the Myers-Briggs personality system. The thing is roughly 70% of the population is more sensing, where as only 30% of the population is of the generalist slant. It's the only personality metric skewed in such a dramatic fashion. And depending on the profession the skew ratio can even be higher, as certain personality types are naturally better for a given task than others. It's good to be able to recognize your personality strengths and weakness's.

Sensors for example make good lab assistants where as iNtuitives make better research coordinators. If the dynamic is flipped however it can cause problems.

You can take a free version of the test here: http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp

For example I am an "ENTJ" w/ 75,75,25,50 respective % scores. I'd be curious what you are @Vegas.

 

[MeSci]

On a related note, some recent research shows that a peanut allergy can be cured by slowly and gradually increasing the dose of peanut in patients. This is analogous to Chris Kresser's opinion on lactose-intolerance: almost nobody is lactose-intolerant, if you start small and slowly build it up you'll be able to tolerate it over time (funnily enough, Tim Ferriss had proclaimed this years ago in a post on gaining muscle mass).

This page suggests that lactose intolerance depends to a considerable extent on ethnicity.

 

[thomas_3000]

In a way that's good news for evolution. Means the populations of gut bugs (and their influence on genetics) in a species can adjust quicker than the species itself and impart tolerance relatively quickly on an evolutionary timeline.

Interesting, hence Tim Steele's recommendation of raw broccoli a bit earlier. If you want to improve food intolerances, organic, dirty and unprepared (as in raw) vegetables thus seems best.

@Gestalt since you're taking so many probiotics, are you sure it's the RS at the specific time that's been the key to your improvement?

I thought about taking l. plantarum too, but as that strain doesn't colonize in the gut (and thus you would have to take it constantly) I'd rather get it from my kefir (and later perhaps from kimchi or sauerkraut when i get around to making that). The b. infantis holds a lot of promise for my condition (IBS, with CFS), I'll be trying that out in the future, after I finish the Prescript-Assist and the AOR3. I'd like to take them 1 at a time, that way I know which one is having an effect on me.

 

[thomas_3000]

This page suggests that lactose intolerance depends to a considerable extent on ethnicity.

I think I might've generalized things, indeed not everybody is capable of producing lactase. It's depended on ancestry and racial background. Here's the link I was referring to. And here's a relevant part of the article:

However, true lactose intolerance is rarely diagnosed by medical testing, and adults frequently mistake their gastrointestinal symptoms as a sign that they are unable to digest dairy products at all. Studies have shown that even diagnosed “lactose malabsorbers” are capable of consuming moderate amounts of dairy, tolerating an average 12 grams of lactose when administered in a single dose (the lactose content found in 1 cup of milk) with little to no symptoms. (5) Additionally, many adults who believe they have lactose intolerance are actually suffering from other gastrointestinal disorders such as SIBO, celiac disease, or IBS, and do not see significant benefit from eliminating dairy.

 

[Gestalt]

@Gestalt since you're taking so many probiotics, are you sure it's the RS at the specific time that's been the key to your improvement?

I thought about taking l. plantarum too, but as that strain doesn't colonize in the gut (and thus you would have to take it constantly) I'd rather get it from my kefir (and later perhaps from kimchi or sauerkraut when i get around to making that). The b. infantis holds a lot of promise for my condition (IBS, with CFS), I'll be trying that out in the future, after I finish the Prescript-Assist and the AOR3. I'd like to take them 1 at a time, that way I know which one is having an effect on me.

Yes I am sure the RS timing is key for me, because I was taking all those for several weeks before I made the timing switch.

Due to cross-feeding factors and the fact there are 1,000+ species and 7,000+ strains I take a diversity approach instead of 1 at a time. Mostly because I'm impatient in terms of getting better. I tend to throw everything and the kitchen sink at it. Although I do see the benefits of trying 1 at a time to see effects. It can maybe point to a keystone species.

My gf had taken RS for several weeks with me, and had no improvement in her eczema. Then she singly took L.Plantarum and after 2 weeks her eczema symptoms considerably diminished so she knows that one species/strain has a profound effect for her.

Thanks for the info on that in that it doesn't colonize the gut....seems like she will have to take it for life or develop a taste for fermented foods...ugh, she's not gonna wanna hear that. lol

 

[Gestalt]

I think I might've generalized things, indeed not everybody is capable of producing lactase. It's depended on ancestry and racial background. Here's the link I was referring to. And here's a relevant part of the article:

If you have adequate Lactase producing bacteria, then some lactose shouldn't be an issue correct? I always though the lactose issue was more of a dysbiosis issue than anything else. Perhaps there is a bacteria that produces an enzyme that helps breakdown something in peanuts that causes the peanut allergy? And those with a peanut allergy (like myself) are simply deficient in said bacteria?

 

[thomas_3000]

Yes I am sure the RS timing is key for me, because I was taking all those for several weeks before I made the timing switch.

Due to cross-feeding factors and the fact there are 1,000+ species and 7,000+ strains I take a diversity approach instead of 1 at a time. Mostly because I'm impatient in terms of getting better. I tend to throw everything and the kitchen sink at it. Although I do see the benefits of trying 1 at a time to see effects. It can maybe point to a keystone species.

My gf had taken RS for several weeks with me, and had no improvement in her eczema. Then she singly took L.Plantarum and after 2 weeks her eczema symptoms considerably diminished so she knows that one species/strain has a profound effect for her.

Thanks for the info on that in that it doesn't colonize the gut....seems like she will have to take it for life or develop a taste for fermented foods...ugh, she's not gonna wanna hear that. lol

Yeah I like the kitchen sink approach as well, money is primarily inhibiting me from trying multiple probiotics at the same time. The prebiotics are a lot cheapier, hence I'm using RS, psyllium husk, baobab powder and Bimuno at the same time ;-) We don't have time for a solid research experiment, that would take decades.

Here's the recent research on peanut allergies and how one can build up tolerance. And here's a BBC article about it.

That L. plantarum doesn't colonize in the gut is something I read in the comment section of Heisenbug's post on L. Plantarum. I haven't been able to find any other sources stating this.

 

[dmholmes]

Krebs cycle metabolites and fatty acids. Particularly interested in succinate.

What if one had below detectable limits of succinate and lactate?

 

[Gestalt]

That L. plantarum doesn't colonize in the gut is something I read in the comment section of Heisenbug's post on L. Plantarum. I haven't been able to find any other sources stating this.

Well I think what you read is probably wrong based on this:

L. plantarum also has a mannose-specific adhesion, which allows it to adhere to the epithelial lining in the human intestines and compete with both gram-positive and gram-negative pathogenic bacteria for nutrients [5,12]

http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Lactobacillus_plantarum_and_its_biological_implications

That article is awesome by the way. Whoever put it together did a fantastic job.

 

[Ripley]

Well I think what you read is probably wrong based on this:


http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Lactobacillus_plantarum_and_its_biological_implications

That article is awesome by the way. Whoever put it together did a fantastic job.

@Gestalt, terrific find. You should point that out to Heisenbug here. He's a terrific contributor to this field and you should take the credit for the correction.

 

[Violeta]

I was just curious, because I think a contact nickel allergy would be strongly associated with intestinal permeability. A few years some researchers figured out that nickel could induce activation of TLR4, and this was not replicated in animals, only humans. TLR4 is a protein, which of course has a corresponding gene. It is relevant in that it senses and responds to LPS and sets into motion an inflammatory cascade. Looking at TLR4 agonists, you will see a number of very nasty compounds, including many opioids, which may suggest that the very common "morphine allergy" is a histamine response mediated by sensitivity to LPS. I wonder about the combined incidence of contact nickel allergy and morphine allergy. Alcohol is also on this list. Actually, I recognize some of these compounds as being alkaloids, which I already suggested may be a problem for you. Some other ME/CFS folks seem react to these substances with an inflammatory or histamine response.

What is interesting, at least to me, is that those substances known to suppress TLR4 include the antibiotics, azithromycin and cyclobenzabrine, I know the former has a very modest impact on microbiota, and naltrexone. I think benefits from these drugs may principally correlate to the reduction of inflammation produced by LPS, or not.

This is very interesting. I'm still working on understanding it, but in the meantime I thought I would add what I found.

Increasing intracellular Ca2+ mediates TLR4 trafficking and subsequent activation of IRF3.
Increasing intracellular Ca2+ levels might potentiate LPS induced responses of IRF3 but not NF-kB.
Phospholipase C-2 and intracellular calcium are required for LPS induced TRL4...
Taurine blunts LPS induced increases in intracellular calcium and TNF-a production by Kupffer cells. (This one is a tangent.)
Intracellular calcium involved in LPS stimulated cytokine production.

You can tell I like the intracellular calcium theme I haven't been able to understand the nickel/morphine/opioid allergy material yet. I have to look around, sheesh that a combination of a lot of research.

But it may explain why some people are more prone to nickel allergies than others. Low intracellular magnesium seems to be fairly common in CFS. (I like to generalize, too.) Speaking of allergies, would it make sense to wonder if the adrenals are involved? Adrenal insufficiency seems to be common in CFS, too.

Did you say at one point that magnesium is in some way related to very low amounts of bifidobacteria?

Forgive me, all, if I've gone somewhere with this that doesn't make sense.

 

[Violeta]

Just want to point out that a lot of ME people seem to get significant benefit from opioids. If you put 'opioid' in the site search box you will find numerous posts stating this, although there are indeed also people who react badly to them.

According to this book, https://archive.org/details/uricacidasafact02haiggoog opioids(morphine, mercury, iodides) clear the blood of uric acid, which brings about increased circulation, and of course that would help with a lot of CFS symptoms such as brain fog and fatigue. The problem is that when they clear the blood of uric acid, the uric acid is precipitated into tissue such as glands and other soft tissue. When the pH of the blood rises, and it will sooner or later, the precipitated uric acid will return to the blood and cause the return of symptoms.

I realize that doesn't explain why the benefits aren't universal. That may be due to where your blood pH is at any given moment.

 

[Asklipia]

Many thanks @Ripley and @Vegas, as well as other contributors for all this extremely useful information.
I should first say that I do not feel I have CFS/ME anymore. Still looking for answers to make sure it does not come back.
A lot of the science here is over my head (for the moment ...) but I offer my personal experience anyway.

What I can contribute here is :
1 - Nickel allergies : this I believe is linked to intake of hydrogenated oils and other hydrogenated products. The hydrogenating process uses nickel as Raney-nickel see here. And hydrogenated oils intake creates calcium/magnesium imbalance.

2 - I have taken half a teaspoon of potato starch for two days in a row at 3 pm.
There is a very distinct, even strong effect on lateralization of lymphatic activity. On the following morning, pimples on right calf, activity below the right ear, pain on the right side of the throat, activity behind the right eye.
This is like a stimulation of the right side. Sympathetic activity.
When we know that autistic children suffer from the weakening of the right side, it augurs well for us.

This stimulation of sympathetic activity would explain with taking RS at the wrong time could be counterproductive. The succession of sympathetic and parasympathetic activities is heavily dependent on circadian and ultra-circadian rhythms.
If RS stimulates sympathetic activity it should be taken at the right time. Maybe RS is the FOOD for sympathetic activity? Or it could be that it stops something that does not allow sympathetic activity by forcing parasympathetic or median activity?

3 - This is where the opioids question comes up. Opioids allow for a median way apart from the sympathetic/parasympathetic succession. Which I conjecture is why there is relief there for those stuck because there is no more energy to activate the sympathetic.

4 - In those two days I have noticed a diminution of median activity. I do not take opioids. In fact I take absolutely nothing except for real food. But RS certainly diminished the "opioid feelings". Of course it is early times yet and it could very well be as @adreno noticed due to thyroid activation, explained here by @aprilk1869 .

5 - @yukito in this post has pointed to a reaction to bananas after he has been eating butter for a while. Could this be about butyrate/acetate balance? Maybe this is useful.

Good luck to all and many thanks for all this information.
Asklipia
FFP