Staph vaccine to treat CFS??

[hvac14400]

but in table 3 there is a significant increase in serum antibody titres to "enterotoxin C", so probably we don't fully understand some base level sh!t and it would be better to ask prof G himself instead : )

 

[Hip]

yea - we don't know if there is any need for "stronger" version in our case whatsoever - we are not trying to cure staph, right? and we certainly don't want any excessive and unnecessary loading of our immune system.

I think this is right.

The way a vaccine normally works, which is to educate the adaptive immune system into making antibodies that target and neutralize certain components (antigens) of a microbe, may not involved at all in the benefits this Staphylococcus vaccine has for ME/CFS.

Rather, I think it is more likely that the toxoid components in the vaccine are acting like therapeutic drugs in the body.

For example, at the bottom of this post, you see how enterotoxin B in the vaccine acts like a drug on the CD28 receptor (the CD28 receptor controls differentiation of regulatory T-cells, which play a central role in autoimmunity, by maintaining immune self-tolerance)

And in this post you see how purified staphylococcal toxoid seems to fix the immunosuppression caused by caused by coxsackievirus B, a virus strongly linked to ME/CFS.


So what does all this mean in terms of choosing the adsorbed or non-adsorbed version of the Russian Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine as an ME/CFS treatment?

Well, the adsorption is done onto aluminum hydroxide. Adsorption just involves "glueing" Staphylococcus antigens onto aluminum hydroxide.

In this paper on aluminum hydroxide-adsorbed vaccines, it says:

The vaccines adsorbed on aluminium hydroxide as adjuvant were less toxic in laboratory tests, were more potent in laboratory tests, and were less reaction-provoking in children.

So this indicates that aluminum hydroxide-adsorbed vaccines are more potent because they generally produce a better education of the adaptive immune response; but since the adaptive immune response may or may not be involved in the benefits this Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine has for ME/CFS, this increase in potency may or may not be of benefit for ME/CFS.

Furthermore, if the Staphylococcus antigens (like alpha toxin and enterotoxin B toxoids) are "glued" to aluminum hydroxide via adsorption, could this actually reduce the efficacy of these toxoids?

For example, if the vaccine works for ME/CFS because the enterotoxin B toxoid binds to the CD28 receptor, if enterotoxin B is "glued" to aluminum hydroxide, will enterotoxin B still be able to bind to the CD28 receptor as effectively?

 

[hvac14400]

The way a vaccine normally works, which is to educate the adaptive immune system into making antibodies that target and neutralize certain components (antigens) of a microbe, may not involved at all in the benefits this Staphylococcus vaccine has for ME/CFS.

Rather, I think it is more likely that the toxoid components in the vaccine are acting like therapeutic drugs in the body.

you are throwing so much science on us, am lost already : )
maybe it's the combination of both pathways. coz if not, if you wanna ditch that part about antibodies, then how you can interpret this

Significant correlations were found between the serological response to type 1 antigens and the change in clinical rating scores.

All correlations indicate that the greater the serological response, the greater the clinical improvement.

The neutralisation capacity against alpha-toxin was significantly higher in clinically “good responders”,
defined as those in whom a 50% symptom reduction occurred on CPRS-15 (n=6), than in the rest of the
patients (n=8).

The main outcome of this exploratory study was that repeated immune stimulation with a staphylococcal
vaccine preparation in FM/CFS patients was related to a significant increase in antibody production against alphatoxin and lipase, and that these levels of increase were positively correlated with the clinical effect of treatment.

Reports from the literature suggest that staphylococcal antigens, when administered as vaccine, may work as unspecific inducers of cell-mediated immunity.

We identified enterotoxins to be part of the vaccine preparation, which provides support for the idea that this
preparation, in our studies, exerts an unspecific modulatory immune response by boosting the immune system. Enterotoxins are superantigens, which act as potent oligoclonal T-cell activators, resulting in the massive release of cytokines.

In conclusion, this study has shown that repeated injections in FM/CFS patients with the staphylococcal
vaccine preparation Staphypan Berna caused a serological response to several staphylococcal antigens. Furthermore, the increase in serum IgG against lipase and alpha-toxin and the increase in the capacity of serum to neutralise alpha-toxin paralleled the clinical outcome.

too much parallels as for me.

 

[Hip]

if you wanna ditch that part about antibodies, then how you can interpret this

Later, on page 6 of the same paper, they say:

It cannot be excluded that alpha-toxin antibodies, to some extent, contributed in part to the clinical effect we observed after the SB treatment. However, we consider it more probable that alpha-toxin antibodies are primarily markers of the general response capacity of the immune system.

So they are saying here that the higher neutralization capacity against alpha toxin found in good responders to the vaccine may just be a marker of a generally improved immune response.

Reports from the literature suggest that staphylococcal antigens, when administered as vaccine, may work as unspecific inducers of cell-mediated immunity.

For instance, the staphylococcal vaccine Staphage Lysate (Delmont Laboratories, USA) has been shown in experiments to be a potent immune stimulant, especially on the T-lymphocytes.

The preparation has also been reported to induce cytokines, thereby promoting T-helper subclass 1 (Th1) cellular immunity. This is of some interest, since the defence against infections is primarily said to be dependent on Th1-driven mechanisms. Furthermore, in laboratory animals, treatment with Staphage Lysate was found to provide nonspecific protection against other infectious agents.

So here we see that staphylococcal antigens also seem to boost cell-mediated immunity (cell-mediated immunity does not involve antibodies). Interestingly, Staphage Lysate (for dogs) is available here.

We identified enterotoxins to be part of the vaccine preparation, which provides support for the idea that this preparation, in our studies, exerts an unspecific modulatory immune response by boosting the immune system. Enterotoxins are superantigens, which act as potent oligoclonal T-cell activators, resulting in the massive release of cytokines

So enterotoxin provides a non-specific boost to the immune system.


The bottom line is that nobody really knows how the Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine works as a ME/CFS treatment. I would like to see more research into it, using the isolated components of the vaccine one by one, in order to work out which one(s) are having a benefit for ME/CFS.

 

[Hip]

One other thing against the aluminum hydroxide-adsorbed version of the Russian vaccine:

When there are adverse effects to vaccines, it has been speculated by Dr Yehuda Shoenfeld that the adjuvant in the vaccine may be responsible.

Dr Shoenfeld points out that the only vaccine that has never been linked to triggering any autoimmune disease is Pneumovax; all the other vaccines are linked to triggering autoimmunity. Now Pneumovax is the only vaccine that does not contain any adjuvants.

So I would be more concerned with the aluminum hydroxide adjuvant in the vaccine, more than any worries with the mercury preservative. If ME/CFS is an autoimmune condition, as the Norwegian rituximab studies suggest, then we don't really want to further provoke autoimmunity.



However, it is possible that both versions of the vaccine may contain an aluminum hydroxide adjuvant.

In fact, this is one of the questions that I would like Medgamal to answer: we know the adsorbed vaccine contains aluminum hydroxide, as this is used for the adsorption substrate; however, does the non-adsorbed vaccine also contain aluminum hydroxide, or contain some other type of adjuvant? (Aluminum hydroxide is a common adjuvant, but there are other types of adjuvants used in vaccines, such as squalene.)

Though the certificate of analysis documents that @hvac14400 posted earlier seem to suggest that there is no aluminum hydroxide in the non-adsorbed vaccine.

 

[hvac14400]

So they are saying here that the higher neutralization capacity against alpha toxin found in good responders to the vaccine may just be a marker of a generally improved immune response.

So enterotoxin provides a non-specific boost to the immune system.

i was trying to make the same conclusion in my post, but failed, coz it's hard for me to write and construct sentences in english - most of the time i only read and understand texts, which is going fairly easy.

When there are adverse effects to vaccines, it has been speculated by Dr Yehuda Shoenfeld that the adjuvant in the vaccine may be responsible.

However, it is possible that both versions of the vaccine may contain an aluminum hydroxide adjuvant.

is there concern against aluminum adjuvant only or any type of modern adjuvants? coz without this "booster" who knows how much more toxoid would be needed, maybe full 1ml for the first shot already.

 

[hvac14400]

Interestingly, Staphage Lysate (for dogs) is available here.

http://www.gama-market.ru/product/asp_8_ml

 

[Hip]

is there concern against aluminum adjuvant only or any type of modern adjuvants?

I am not sure, but I know the adjuvants linked to autoimmunity include: aluminum hydroxide, squalene and silicone.

Though it is not an established scientific fact that adjuvants can trigger autoimmunity; it is the hypothesis of Dr Yehuda Shoenfeld and other researchers.

What I find interesting is that when silicone breast implants develop a leak, sometimes this causes an ME/CFS-like condition and autoimmunity in women (ref: here).

coz without this "booster" who knows how much more toxoid would be needed, maybe full 1ml for the first shot already.

Yes, I believe adjuvants are essential in vaccines, otherwise the vaccine may not take effect. But we need more research into adjuvant risks, and research into finding new adjuvants that are safer.

http://www.gama-market.ru/product/asp_8_ml

Interesting. That looks like a Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine (though for dogs).

I have seen two other human Staphylococcus vaccines for sale in Russia: see here (manufacturer info here), and also here. But I don't think these two are toxoid vaccines.

 

[hvac14400]

silly question of the day - what would happen, if instead of a normal vaccine i'll take adjuvant itself only? would it still boost my immune system status? coz that's what we aim for in the end - we don't need no particular vaccine in the first place.

 

[Arvan]

@hvac14400
Good luck with Medgamal tomorrow.

 

[Arvan]

@hvac14400
If you get a chance ,could you ask Medgamal how long they would expect the vaccines to remain viable when not stored at recommended temperature?
Take care.

 

[hvac14400]

Good luck with Medgamal tomorrow.

thnx : )

If you get a chance ,could you ask Medgamal how long they would expect the vaccines to remain viable when not stored at recommended temperature?

that's one of Hip's question, so don't worry bout it.

 

[Hip]

silly question of the day - what would happen, if instead of a normal vaccine i'll take adjuvant itself only? would it still boost my immune system status? coz that's what we aim for in the end - we don't need no particular vaccine in the first place.

I have to admit I have no idea of what would happen if someone administered a pure adjuvant to themselves, though I would not recommend it, because as mentioned earlier, adjuvants are speculatively associated with triggering autoimmunity.

I was surprised to discover that there is very little understanding of how adjuvants actually work. There is scant research in this area. This study found that the aluminum hydroxide adjuvant may work by inducing uric acid and activating dendritic cells.

 

[hvac14400]

lol - medgamal's website doesn't even work today, haha : )
so i called them - that was a truly BS conversation.

they don't know and haven't tested how long their product would stay stable outside of 2-8 deg. C range.
they just FAILED to explain how it's possible, that version without preservative has the same shell life - just some random bla-bla-bla, like "this is the way it is! what you want from me?!"
jesus christ

only adsorbed version contains adjuvant and preservative (mercury).
their product apparently contains alpha toxin only - that's why it called anatoxin and not a vaccine.

they said, that for initial vaccination we must use version without adsorbant, and then for supporting therapy that version with mercury.

i got additional phone number from them, but woman on the other end rejected my questions right away and started askin who i am, from where i am and why i think she would answer any of my questions in the firs place, so i think it's a dead end here, lol.

 

[hvac14400]

i think it is possible to emulate staphypan to some extent, combining a bunch of different sh!t like lego - for example this "piece" probably contains some staph cell parts - http://www.biomedservice.ru/price/goods/1/8335

Состав. Препарат содержит комплекс растворимых термостабильных антигенов стафилококка.

 

[hvac14400]

official e-mail answer from medgamal, as-is:

Я не могу ответить Вам на Ваши вопросы, наш препарат не предназначен для лечения синдрома хронической усталости, у нас нет такого опыта и информации.

Ссылка, которую Вы указали, любопытна, но такое применение не входит в инструкцию по применению. Обычно, если кому-то хочется инициировать исследование эффекта в какой-то другой области, он должен сформулировать задачу, найти финансирование, закупить у нас препарат и провести такое исследование. Препарат нами производится, но его разработчиков уже нет в живых ( препарат создавался в 1966 году), и дальнейшими исследованиями этого препарата сейчас никто не занимается.
По поводу состава препарата - в схеме производства нет включения ртути и других компонентов, обычно используется фильтрация и очистка, но технология не является информацией открытого доступа,тем более для неспециалистов. Для Вас существует инструкция к применению, каждое слово которой строго выверено, и если указано, что нет консервантов, то они не добавляются.
Температура хранения 2-8 градусов является обязательной, мы отправляем препарат в термоконтейнерах с термоиндикацией, которые могут до нескольких суток держать температуру. Без этого никто не будет гарантировать вам пригодность препарата.

here you go, bois 'n' gurlz

so in summary - let prof. G. buy this stuff himself and conduct a new study on cfs-ers again, that's the only way.

 

[Andey]

My guess is that anatoxin by itself works as bactriostatical substance. At least majority of bacterial toxins made to kill other species of bacteria around not to poison a host.

 

[hvac14400]

@Hip

i think it is possible to emulate staphypan to some extent, combining a bunch of different sh!t like lego - for example this "piece" probably contains some staph cell parts - http://www.biomedservice.ru/price/goods/1/8335

some additional info about this:

Антифагин представляет модифицированную вакцину, состоящую из веществ, освобождающихся из микробных тел при нагревании, в последующем профильтрованных и консервируемых фенолом.
В настоящее время стафилококковый антифагин готовят из 10—12 различных штаммов золотистого и белого стафилококка.
Механизм терапевтического действия антифагина связан главным образом с активацией противомикробного иммунитета и прекращением бактериемии, а также десенсибилизацией организма к стафилококку и общим повышением защитной реакции к стафилококковой инфекции, проявляющейся выработкой специфических антител и резким усилением фагоцитоза. Фагоцитарная активность лейкоцитов под влиянием антифагина значительно увеличивается, что не всегда наблюдается при иммунизации анатоксином. В связи с этим наиболее целесообразно комбинированное лечение анатоксином и антифагином, которое в экспериментальных наблюдениях на животных также обеспечивает высшую степень нарастания антитоксинов.
Стафилококковый антифагин является фильтратом специфического растворимого стафилококкового антигена, освобожденного от балластных веществ.

Антифагин может служить не только лечебным, но и профилактическим средством (особенно у детей и ослабленных больных).

 

[hvac14400]

My guess is that anatoxin by itself works as bactriostatical substance. At least majority of bacterial toxins made to kill other species of bacteria around not to poison a host.

sorta antibiotic? : )

 

[Andey]

sorta antibiotic? : )

Yep, some commercial antibiotics are exactly that - bacterial or myco toxins. Starting from penicillin or chloramphenicol.