Staph vaccine to treat CFS??

[hvac14400]

i really don't know how prof. G refrigerates his staphypan reserves, but look what i found here:

2. Очищенный концентрированный сорбированный стафилококковый анатоксин
Анатоксин хранится в темном, сухом месте при температуре 4-10 °С. Замораживание и оттаивание, даже однократное, приводит препарат в негодность.

the website is down at the moment (wtf is going on today? lol), here is a google cache version

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ook/section?id=4506+&cd=3&hl=ru&ct=clnk&gl=ru

 

[hvac14400]

i think it is possible to emulate staphypan to some extent, combining a bunch of different sh!t like lego - for example this "piece" probably contains some staph cell parts - http://www.biomedservice.ru/price/goods/1/8335

hmmm - probably we need another "piece" instead - staph vaccine. the difference is:

Стафилококковая вакцина
Препарат представляет собой взвесь убитых нагреванием стафилококков, антигенный комплекс которых является его действующим началом.
Для приготовления вакцины применяют штаммы золотистых и белых стафилококков, выделенные от больных с различными гнойничковыми поражениями кожи. Они должны обладать всеми признаками, характерными для безусловно-патогенных стафилококков.

Стафилококковый антифагин
Экстракт продуктов распада белков микроорганизмов.

Препарат представляет собой фильтрат двухсуточных культур стафилококков, прогретых при 100 °С в течение часа.
В основе действия антифагина лежит его способность вызывать образование агглютининов и опсонинов в организме иммунизированных им людей и животных, что повышает устойчивость их к инфекции. Систематический курс лечения антифагином приводит также к десенсибилизации организма больных.

i think it's time for some nerd to chime in - anyone plz?

 

[Hip]

who i am, from where i am and why i think she would answer any of my questions in the firs place, so i think it's a dead end here,

Well thanks very much for your efforts anyway in trying to get some info from Medgamal.

only adsorbed version contains adjuvant and preservative (mercury).

OK, well at least we have that fact doubly confirmed now.

their product apparently contains alpha toxin only - that's why it called anatoxin and not a vaccine.

OK, this confirms what @Andey discovered when he contacted Medgamal a few months ago: that the vaccine contains alpha toxin (converted of course into the deactivated and safe toxoid form).

But you are saying that the Medgamal technician said the vaccine only contains alpha toxin? Did she explicitly say that the vaccine does not contain any other Staphylococcus toxoids — other toxoids such as enterotoxin B?

Or was it not very clear in the conversation what she was saying?


It is possible that Medgamal may not have performed a full analysis on their vaccine, and so they may not be fully aware of what is in the vaccine.

I am guessing that Berna Biotech, the manufacturers of the original Staphypan vaccine did not perform a full analysis on their vaccine, because if they had, Prof Gottfries's team would not have needed to perform their own analysis of Staphypan.


But if Medgamal's vaccine does only contain one toxoid, alpha toxin, then it is a slightly different vaccine to Staphypan.

My guess is that anatoxin by itself works as bactriostatical substance. At least majority of bacterial toxins made to kill other species of bacteria around not to poison a host.

Yes, that is more or less correct. The way toxoid vaccines work for protection against bacteria infections is that these vaccines educate the immune system to make antibodies against the nasty bacterial toxins that the bacteria can synthesize. It's often these bacterial toxins that make a bacteria infection much worse, or even fatal.

So once the immune system is able to neutralize the bacterial toxins, it make it much easier for the immune system to then do the job of killing off the bacteria.

 

[hvac14400]

Well thanks very much for your efforts anyway in trying to get some info from Medgamal.

but she in fact answered by e-mail then and i posted that text as "official e-mail answer from medgamal, as-is".

But you are saying that the Medgamal technician said the vaccine only contains alpha toxin?

yea.

Did she explicitly say that the vaccine does not contain any other Staphylococcus toxoids — other toxoids such as enterotoxin B?

i asked her twice about enterotoxins - she said none of them resides there - by design.

It is possible that Medgamal may not have performed a full analysis on their vaccine, and so they may not be fully aware of what is in the vaccine.

i don't understand how it's possible if they designed this vaccine by themselves? but i know nothing about vaccines anyway.

But if Medgamal's vaccine does only contain one toxoid, alpha toxin, then it is a slightly different vaccine to Staphypan.

the woman said, that they performed various analyses and studies of the vaccine in the past. and i think this is very different stuff - no enterotoxins, no cell wall components, no staph antigens.
read russian quotes that i posted about real staph vaccine - they discovered, that anatoxin alone isn't sufficient in all cases.

the woman also said, that there is a phd thesis (or something like that) about how this anatoxin boosts nonspecific immune system response.

am going to call a doctor, immunologist, and ask her about compositions and differences in them of staph vaccine and staph antifagin.
until then i wouldn't inject my ass with none of this shiet

 

[Hip]

Great work, @hvac14400. You did well to get some clear answers from Medgamal. I think we can be reasonably certain that enterotoxin B is not in Medgamal's vaccine, and that the only toxoid in the vaccine is alpha toxin.

And Medgamal also say there are no cell wall components, and no Staphylococcus antigens.

So it looks like Medgamal's vaccine just purely contains the alpha toxin toxoid.



By the way, anatoxin (анатоксин) is just a synonym for toxoid (токсоид). Both words mean the same thing. And an anatoxin / toxoid always means a bacterial toxin whose toxic effect has be mostly deactivated (this deactivation is typically done by treating the bacterial toxin with formaldehyde and heat, which then converts the toxin to a toxoid).

Antifagin (антифагин) is something different, and refers to the substances released from bacterial cells when heating them. As far as I can see, antifagin Staphylococcus vaccines do not contain any Staphylococcus toxoids.

 

[hvac14400]

By the way, anatoxin (анатоксин) is just a synonym for toxoid (токсоид). Both words mean the same thing. And an anatoxin / toxoid always means a bacterial toxin whose toxic effect has be mostly deactivated (this deactivation is typically done by treating the bacterial toxin with formaldehyde and heat, which then converts the toxin to a toxoid).

so there is no luck for us then? coz we need a set of toxoids, not just one of them.

Antifagin (антифагин) is something different, and refers to the substances released from bacterial cells when heating them. As far as I can see, antifagin Staphylococcus vaccines do not contain any Staphylococcus toxoids.

yea, i know - i think we may need it as a source of a cell wall components.
but better get staph vaccine i guess - it contains killed, but not yet decomposing staph cells.
and in antifagin the decay is already begun.

 

[hvac14400]

Home Made Staphylococcus Toxoid Vaccine

One thing I was looking at some time ago was making my own Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine.
You can buy Staphylococcus alpha toxin from a number of suppliers.

You would also need to know the exact dosage of alpha toxin to put into each of the injections you make up yourself. I am not sure of how much alpha toxin goes into each injection of Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine.

what is exactly forced you into thinkin, that it is enough to just have one toxoid from the 5?

 

[Hip]

yea, i know - i think we may need it as a source of a cell wall components.

If it is the Staphylococcus cell wall components that are responsible for improvements in ME/CFS that Staphypan produces, then this would be good news, since there is a Russian Staphylococcus antifagin vaccine available for sale, the one I mentioned earlier in this post.

And if it is the alpha toxin toxoid that is responsible for the ME/CFS benefits of Staphypan, then great, because that would make the Medgamal vaccine ideal.

However, if it is the enterotoxin toxoid that is responsible for the ME/CFS benefits of Staphypan, then we are stuck, because there are no vaccines I have seen which contain enterotoxin toxoids.



There interesting thing here is that using these various Russian vaccines, we should be able to work out what it was in the Staphypan vaccine that provided benefit for ME/CFS.

• If the Medgamal vaccine works for ME/CFS, then we know alpha toxin is providing ME/CFS benefits.

• If the Russian antifagin vaccines work for ME/CFS, then we know that Staphylococcus cell wall components / antigens are providing ME/CFS benefits.

• If neither of the above work for ME/CFS, then we know that it is most likely the enterotoxins that are providing ME/CFS benefits.

 

[Hip]

what is exactly forced you into thinkin, that it is enough to just have one toxoid from the 5?

Because at the time I wrote that post, the online Google research I did only found immunomodulatory effects for alpha toxin. So alpha toxin was at that stage my best guess at the active ingredient of Staphypan as an ME/CFS treatment.

However, later (see bottom of this post) I realized that enterotoxin B, and also enterotoxin A, have interesting immunomodulatory effects.


By the way, don't even think to experiment with pure bacterial toxins or toxoids from a supplier: that is likely an easy route to instant death. Even the toxoids can be lethal at the wrong dose level.

 

[hvac14400]

hey, look - even in that study

Immune modulation with a staphylococcal preparation in fibromyalgia/chronic fatigue syndrome: relation between antibody levels and clinical improvement

2004. Full paper here.

"Treatment led to a significantly increased capacity of serum to neutralise alpha-toxin and a significant increase in serum IgG to alpha-toxin and lipase. Furthermore, the increase in these parameters combined paralleled the improvement in clinical outcome. Thus, the greater the serological response, the greater was the clinical effect."

NOTE: in this study, the ingredients of the Staphypan vaccine were analyzed, and the following Staphylococcus aureus antigens were identified

they said that

SB is composed of a mixture of staphylococcal vaccine (undefined extracts of 2 strains of staphylococci, Staphylococcus aureus and Staphylococcus epidermidis), anatoxin (toxoid), and a preservative compound, thiomersal.

so it's a 2 part mixture, a "lego" as a said earlier : )
so you need to inject either a mix of anatoxin+staph vaccine in one syringe, or just take 2 shots separately.

 

[hvac14400]

With the different components of the vaccine preparation (Staphylococcus aureus and Staphylococcus epidermidis) as the starting point, the antibody status against various antigens was analysed before and after 6 months of SB treatment. The antigens studied can be divided into three types.

The first type represents extracellular toxins or enzymes, i.e., antigens used in traditional or classic Staphylococcus aureus serology. Analyses of serum IgG-ELISA against alpha-toxin, serum neutralisation capacity to alpha-toxin
(neutralisation test), and IgG-ELISA against lipase were performed.

The second type of antigens represents components of the bacterial cell wall from Staphylococcus aureus or Staphylococcus epidermidis, which were assessed by analyses of IgG-ELISAs against Staphylococcus aureus teichoic acid, crude cell-wall preparation of Staphylococcus epidermidis B-a, and crude cellwall preparation of Staphylococcus epidermidis B-b.

now look at antifagin composition - http://www.biomedservice.ru/price/goods/1/8335

Активное вещество: комплекс пептидогликана и тейхоевых кислот

see? it's the same shiet!

 

[Hip]

so it's a 2 part mixture, a "lego" as a said earlier : )
so you need to inject either a mix of anatoxin+staph vaccine in one syringe, or just take 2 shots separately.

There are two possibilities:

(1) The benefits of Staphypan for ME/CFS come from just one ingredient.

(2) The benefits of Staphypan for ME/CFS come from two or more different ingredients of Staphypan, each ingredient having its own beneficial effect for ME/CFS. So then the overall benefit of Staphypan is the sum of the benefits of the different active ingredients.

However, even if the benefits come from two or more ingredients in Staphypan, I would doubt it is necessary to mix these ingredients together in order to make them work. I think each ingredient would work on its own as an ME/CFS treatment. But obviously you will have stronger effects when two active ingredients are taken.

 

[Hip]

see? it's the same shiet!

Yes, so the Staphylococcus antifagin vaccine (see this post) made by www.biomedm.ru is definitely worth trying.

 

[Hip]

@hvac14400
There are a number of studies by Russian researchers Akatov A.K. and Semenova I.B. which examine the ability of purified Staphylococcus toxoid to modulate the immune system when there is an infection with coxsackievirus B. See the following studies:

Correction of immune response using purified staphylococcal toxoid and likopid in the secondary immunodeficiency induced by Coxsackie virus B3, 2001.

The effect on Coxsackie B3 viral infection of these different immunomodifiers: pertussis corpuscular vaccine, purified staphylococcal anatoxin and their combination, 1995.

Changes in the direction of the immunomodulating activity of a purified staphylococcal anatoxin when administered to virus-infected mice, 1994.

The correction of a secondary immunological deficit caused by the Coxsackie B3 virus by using an immunomodulator of bacterial origin, 1993.

Bacterial exotoxins and anatoxins as antigen-nonspecific immunomodulators, 1991.


Dr Irina Semenova's 2004 thesis is also available here:
Laws of correction of secondary immunodeficiencies immunomodulators (for example, staphylococcal toxoid and purified licopid). Also found here.


In all these studies, the authors refer to "purified staphylococcal toxoid", but they do not specify which particular Staphylococcus toxoid they are using (it is not mentioned in the study abstract, although they might provide these details in the full paper).

If we can find out which Staphylococcus toxoid they used in these studies, it would give us a good clue about which Staphylococcus toxoid works best for ME/CFS, because ME/CFS is strongly linked to chronic coxsackievirus B infection.

Semenova I.B. (Семёнова И.Б.) is still active as a researcher, because his her latest paper is dated November 2015. So it might be possible to contact Semenova by email and ask him what he means by "purified staphylococcal toxoid" in his published papers. Here is a lecture given by Semenova I.B., but unfortunately it has no email contact details.

EDIT: we found out later (see this post) that the "purified staphylococcal toxoid" vaccine referred to in these studies is very likely the Russian Medgamal Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine.


The above studies were all published in the Russian Journal Of Microbiology, Epidemiology And Immunobiology (Журнал Микробиологии, Эпидемиологии И Иммунобиологии).

The journal's website has an archive of its published papers, but the archive unfortunately only goes back to 2002, and this archive only contains the study abstracts, not the full paper.

 

[CaptainA]

Man, I feel like we just fell down another rabbit hole. Great work @Hip and @hvac14400. At this point, and I could very well be very wrong, does anyone think that getting this info together an bringing it to a researcher and/or one of the researchers on the Solve ME/CFS project would be a good idea? I feel like having a lab and connections in the medical world could be very beneficial at this stage. That said, I know that Prof. Gottfries is working on this. I'm just thinking it might be time we made some noise and got some attention on this. Especially because we now, more or less have a way of testing which part of the vaccine is beneficial with the two Russian options as Hip suggested.

 

[Hip]

does anyone think that getting this info together an bringing it to a researcher and/or one of the researchers on the Solve ME/CFS project would be a good idea? I feel like having a lab and connections in the medical world could be very beneficial at this stage.

I am starting to think along these lines. There are a number of people that could be approached. I was thinking that approaching a few pharmaceutical companies might be an idea, because there surely must be a good business case for recreating the Staphypan vaccine, with all the ME/CFS patients around the world that would regularly use it every month for the rest of their life.

It was mentioned by @Ninan in this post that all it would take is $900,000 to get the Staphypan formula back into production.

 

[Arvan]

Yeah, big thanks to @hvac14400 and @Hip. I agree with @CaptainA about getting some researchers involved. It does make me wonder though why Professor Gottfries and team didn't do exactly this.
One thing that keeps spinning around in my head, is why did it seemingly take the Gottfries crew to do the ingredient analysis of Staphypan when you would have thought that Berna Biotech would have had them readily available. Staphypan sounds like a fairly complex put together. I wonder what exactly it was designed for? I am sort of asking these question with the notion that maybe some of the toxins(toxoids) may somehow piggyback onto the principle toxin(toxoid) that the vaccine is named after and be relegated to the background and not mentioned. Is it possible that some of the, lesser toxins are unavoidable in the production process.Which brings me back to the Russian Medgamal Staph vaccines which apparently only contains Alpha toxin and none of the other ingredients that we might have hoped for. Is it possible that it does in fact carry more of the active ingredients besides the Alpha toxin?
@Hip are you intending to continue with your trial of the Adsorbing version?
I am stalling slightly in my intent on pursuing the Normal version but in the name of science and some self interest I am still leaning toward giving it a go. I small push would be good.

 

[Hip]

@Hip are you intending to continue with your trial of the Adsorbing version?

Yes, for at least another two months.

 

[hvac14400]

Semenova I.B. (Семёнова И.Б.) is still active as a researcher, because his latest paper is dated November 2015. So it might be possible to contact Semenova by email and ask him what he means by "purified staphylococcal toxoid" in his published papers.

it's a woman, not "he"

It does make me wonder though why Professor Gottfries and team didn't do exactly this.
...
One thing that keeps spinning around in my head, is why did it seemingly take the Gottfries crew to do the ingredient analysis of Staphypan when you would have thought that Berna Biotech would have had them readily available. Staphypan sounds like a fairly complex put together.
...
Which brings me back to the Russian Medgamal Staph vaccines which apparently only contains Alpha toxin and none of the other ingredients that we might have hoped for. Is it possible that it does in fact carry more of the active ingredients besides the Alpha toxin?

alot of good questions here, mate.
about russian anatoxin - i think there is posiibility. coz the first person i talked to, i think she may just not be knowledgeable enough about such a details, i wouldn't trust her words 100%.
the second person just said that i have no access to such an information. and i can understand that.
so - we really don't know.

 

[hvac14400]

am going to call a doctor, immunologist, and ask her about compositions and differences in them of staph vaccine and staph antifagin.

there is definitely some bad luck with this topic - i called the doctor and she is gone, atleast for full week.
dammit