Rethinking Probiotics.

Messages
9
Likes
0
Hello, sorry for jumping in... but I don't know where else to post my questions.

I ask for my friend, who is pregnant with her first children, twins.
I recommended that she take a probiotik because I read that it is beneficial e.g. to reduce the incidence of atopic illnesses later in life for the children.

She was hesitant, saying that her digestion is good and she feels well – therefore why intervene her seamingly functioning ecosystem in her bowels.

Meantime the situation has changed.
She is in the hospital because premature birth in her 28. week threatens as the cervix uteri (neck of uterus) has become too short. Among other things she got an antibiotic, penicillin (what is standard care) and now she would like to take a probiotik.

I’m not quite sure in the new situation how high the bacteria content may be:

The numbers are very different, from 2 or 5 billion per capsule, then comes a big gap, followed by 50 billion or even 450 billion capsules.

Unfortunately the literature did not say which products they tested and what the dosages have been. Only Lactobacillus rhamnosus was most often included.

I would select a product with mainly lactobacilli and bifido strains, no earth based bacteria.

Does anyone of you know

if there is any risk in this situation at all?
If 50 billion would be to heavy?
Or can someon point me, by chance, to literature?

Thank you in advance,

Pearl
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,049
Likes
4,247
This is the 1st time I saw mention to it:
Glutathione is one of L.Reuteri essential foods (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21585317 ) so make sure that you supplement with it (I would suggest taking that 1 hr before the L.Reuteri) .
...
The reason that some people may be non-responders to Gluthathione could be as simple as having no L.Reuteri left to feed!
Bottom line: L Reuteri and Glutathione should be taken together – taking one without the other may result in little or no effect.
Source
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,502
Likes
2,598
Location
Seattle
This is the 1st time I saw mention to it:

Source
Yes, that study seems to suggest that l. reuteri depletes glutathione, so I would guess that unless one has high or decent levels of "g", then it might not be a good idea.

Besides, l. reuteri increases histamine:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22384111

"In summary, a component of the gut microbiome, L. reuteri, is able to convert a dietary component, L-histidine, into an immunoregulatory signal, histamine, which suppresses pro-inflammatory TNF production."
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,049
Likes
4,247
I also read that reuteri produces B12. Anyway I had a positive effect on my sleep from upping it for 2x now. The 3rd time I was too messed up, but I hope I can repeat the effect soon.

I think some histamine is needed to make things in the bowels move though...
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,768
Likes
7,524
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Lowhistaminechef thinks differently about reuteri: [bold is mine, from my notes] I never had negative histamine effects from it.
http://thelowhistaminechef.com/these-probiotic-strains-lower-histamine-rather-than-raising-it/

So I’m looking for a probiotic supplement with inflammation lowering…

Bifidobacterium infantis

Bifidobacterium longum

Lactobacillus reuteri (raises histamine in the short term but elevates anti inflammatory cAMP levels)

But also Lactobacillus plantarum (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3316997/)

Other than that, the potentially great news is that the L. paracasei probiotic can reverse the gut permeability (leaky gut anyone?) and internal hypersensitivity. Sounds good right? There’s more.

Seems that stress can also cause bacteria to cling to the gastrointestinal tract, but this bacteria was prevented from sticking to the mesenteric lymph nodes (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2036.2008.03750.x/full) by a mixture of L. rhamnosus and Lactobacillus helveticus


Potentially…Saccharomyces-Boulardii: I found a number of studies on its effectiveness in treating http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17269987, which some researchers have http://www.hindawi.com/journals/grp/2012/950582/to high histamine/mast cell issues.

Neutral strains…

Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus Lactis, Lactococcus Lactis, and Lactobacillus plant arum which do not have any effect on biogenic amines like histamine and tyramine.

But not…

Lactobacillus casei (produces histamine and tyramine)

Lactobacillus Bulgaricus (increases histamine alone)

For now I’ve decided to avoid Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus Bulgaricus, until I find studies showing that their histamine raising qualities are in fact something we want, because it raises cAMP levels/fights inflammation.
 
Last edited:

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,049
Likes
4,247
It took me several months since reading this thread for the 1st time to find a local compounding pharmacy carrying all the probx strains mentioned here. Then I also needed a dr. to prescribe them to me. Finally both requirements are met, and I am testing 3 different mixes:

1) oxalate-degrading strains (acidophilus + plantarum + rhamnosus + lactis)

2) D-Lactate free (rhamnosus + bifidum + infantis)

3) Bif only (breve + bifidum + longum)

The effects of taking each one every other day at bed time are:

1) good sleep, must get up very early to urinate once, very hard to get out of bed in the morning (took it several times)

2) good sleep, no need to get up to urinate, very hard to get out of bed in the morning (took it once)

3) lousy sleep, had to urinate in the middle of the night, MAO-A insomnia, dreaded freezing cold at 7 o'clock (took it once)

Tomorrow I will try taking 2 and 3 together :bulb:
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
15,713
Likes
46,514
I know this is an old thread and don't know how I missed this thread before. Am still trying to figure out if the consensus for MCAS and histamine lowering probiotics is still Align and Bifido Infantis? Is that still the most current thinking amongst the experts?
 

Oci

Senior Member
Messages
261
Likes
80
It took me several months since reading this thread for the 1st time to find a local compounding pharmacy carrying all the probx strains mentioned here. Then I also needed a dr. to prescribe them to me. Finally both requirements are met, and I am testing 3 different mixes:

1) oxalate-degrading strains (acidophilus + plantarum + rhamnosus + lactis)

2) D-Lactate free (rhamnosus + bifidum + infantis)

3) Bif only (breve + bifidum + longum)

The effects of taking each one every other day at bed time are:

1) good sleep, must get up very early to urinate once, very hard to get out of bed in the morning (took it several times)

2) good sleep, no need to get up to urinate, very hard to get out of bed in the morning (took it once)

3) lousy sleep, had to urinate in the middle of the night, MAO-A insomnia, dreaded freezing cold at 7 o'clock (took it once)

Tomorrow I will try taking 2 and 3 together :bulb:
Wow, Gondwanaland! You are quite the biohacker! You are analyzing the various combinations. I just take probiotics willy nilly!

My doctor today suggested I try the Metagenics UltraFlora Women's for my female complaints. I have tried it before and thought it was good. Interesting information on how 2 probiotics affect the female reproductive tract. It contains:
a 50:50 Blend of: 2 billion live organisms†††
Lactobacillus rhamnosus GR-1 Lactobacillus reuteri RC-14®
Jarrow also has the same thing. Here is their description.
http://www.jarrow.com/articles/release/id/403/Probiotics_for_Women's_Health:_The_Story_of_Lactobacillus_Rhamnosus_GR-1_and_Lactobacillus_Reuteri_RC-14

I also was comparing VSL#3 and Primal Defense. I used bold on the ones that were the same in both.
VSL#3

  • Bifidobacterium breve
  • Bifidobacterium longum
  • Bifidobacterium infantis
  • Lactobacillus acidophilus
  • Lactobacillus plantarum
  • Lactobacillus paracasei
  • Lactobacillus bulgaricus
  • Streptococcus thermophiles
Primal Defense
Lactobacillus plantarum
Bacillus subtilis
Lactobacillus brevis
Bifidobacterium breve
Bifidobacterium bifidum
Lactobacillus paracasei
Lactobacillus salivarius
Lactobacillus casei
Bifidobacterium lactis
Bifidobacterium longum
Lactobacillus acidophilus

Lactobacillus rhamnosus

I can see that there is really a lot to know about these probiotics. I will be traveling the last 2 weeks of the month and need to decide if I should take the VSL#3 and ice packs or use the Primal Defense which does not need refrigeration. I would also use the UltraFlora Women's as well as Sacch Boulardi with whatever I decide on.

Another possibility is Xymogen ProbioMax DF...also good at room temperature. I have it on hand too. It may be more potent than I originally thought. It contains:
Lactobacillus acidophilus La-14
Bifidobacterium longum Bl-05
Lactobacillus plantarum Lp-115 409 mg (50 Billion CFU†)
HOWARU® Bifido (Bifidobacterium lactis HN019) 167 mg (50 Billion CFU†)

Any advice? I will study this thread. I have no idea of your categories, Gondwanaland, ie lactate-free, oxalate degrading, Bif only. How did you come up with these distinctions?

Good luck on your experiments! Sleep well! Oci
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,049
Likes
4,247
My doctor today suggested I try the Metagenics UltraFlora Women's for my female complaints. I have tried it before and thought it was good. Interesting information on how 2 probiotics affect the female reproductive tract. It contains:
a 50:50 Blend of: 2 billion live organisms†††
Lactobacillus rhamnosus GR-1 Lactobacillus reuteri RC-14®
Jarrow also has the same thing. Here is their description.
http://www.jarrow.com/articles/release/id/403/Probiotics_for_Women's_Health:_The_Story_of_Lactobacillus_Rhamnosus_GR-1_and_Lactobacillus_Reuteri_RC-14
Thanks! I used to take a lot of reuteri, but then nothing lasts, we are moving targets as someone said to me. I was happy about reuteri generating B12 in my gut until I found out its fuel is glutathione :eek: I still have some leftovers though and will add it to my mixes :thumbsup:
I have no idea of your categories, Gondwanaland, ie lactate-free, oxalate degrading, Bif only. How did you come up with these distinctions?
First and foremost oxalate-degrading strains as per available lists here.
Then I was curious about the effects of no lactate (liked it!)
And then avoiding LAB completely by taking Bif only...
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
15,713
Likes
46,514
I know this might not be the right thread to ask but when people mention "oxylate dumping" re: certain probiotics, what does that mean? Is it something bad or good?
 

Oci

Senior Member
Messages
261
Likes
80
Thanks! I used to take a lot of reuteri, but then nothing lasts, we are moving targets as someone said to me. I was happy about reuteri generating B12 in my gut until I found out its fuel is glutathione :eek: I still have some leftovers though and will add it to my mixes :thumbsup:

First and foremost oxalate-degrading strains as per available lists here.
Then I was curious about the effects of no lactate (liked it!)
And then avoiding LAB completely by taking Bif only...
Thanks Gondwanaland. As for reuteri generating B12 in the gut, this is great and needed to deal with oxalates. I agree about the drain on glutathione. Have you tried supplementing with some form of glutathione? I suspect that my snps (CBS A360A+/- (mildly) and BHMT 02++ and 08++) may be causing a dump down the wrong pathway. My doc suggested increased molybenum for this. My ION test (from years ago) indicated glutathione being used up rapidly. I don't really understand all this yet.

You said: "I used to take a lot of reuteri, but then nothing lasts". Did you feel some effects of it and then they were gone? Or what exactly did you mean?

I'm on a bit of a supplement holiday. Will see if that makes me feel better. Oci
 

Oci

Senior Member
Messages
261
Likes
80
I know this might not be the right thread to ask but when people mention "oxylate dumping" re: certain probiotics, what does that mean? Is it something bad or good?
Hi Gingergrrl, Oxalates are complicated. Its probably best if you goggle the term or put into the search bar at the top of the page. Oxalates can form into kidney stones but also affect the urinary tract, the female reproductive system, the skin and many other organs. They seem to cause a problem when people have leaky gut or deficiencies ie B12. There sure is lots to learn! Oci
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,049
Likes
4,247
I know this might not be the right thread to ask but when people mention "oxylate dumping" re: certain probiotics, what does that mean? Is it something bad or good?
Hi Ginger, probiotics don't cause dumping, but if you are having dumping (oxalates moving to your skin, lungs, other tissues) the right probiotics might sinalize that the oxalates should be dumped in the gut lumen to be degraded by them. The oxalate thread is linked in my sig "Prebx Probx Ox".
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,049
Likes
4,247
Have you tried supplementing with some form of glutathione?
I don't have access to it locally and with the unfavorable currency conversion I am not sure when I will reopen the import season :thumbdown:
I suspect that my snps (CBS A360A+/- (mildly) and BHMT 02++ and 08++) may be causing a dump down the wrong pathway
I have the same CBS, and +/- for the BHMT, and I think they slow down the Liver Phase II :grumpy:
My doc suggested increased molybenum for this.
I never tolerated it well, I think because I have low copper bioavailability, plus my uric acid is highish and Moly increases uric acid.
You said: "I used to take a lot of reuteri, but then nothing lasts". Did you feel some effects of it and then they were gone? Or what exactly did you mean?
In the beginning it made me sleep better, then after a while the sleep worsened, so I think it lowered my glutathione :cautious:
I'm on a bit of a supplement holiday. Will see if that makes me feel better.
I have just started new supplementation, but I usually skip the weekends with no detrimental effects.
 
Last edited:

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Likes
45,666
I suspect that my snps (CBS A360A+/- (mildly) and BHMT 02++ and 08++) may be causing a dump down the wrong pathway.
CBS A360A and BHMT-02 have no known impact in any of the published research. BHMT-08 +/+ is the mildly beneficial version, also based on the published research.

BHMT and CBS SNPs which are known to have an impact are listed at:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-bhmt-and-bhmt2-variations.24512/ and
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-cbs-variations.24492/
 

Oci

Senior Member
Messages
261
Likes
80
CBS A360A and BHMT-02 have no known impact in any of the published research. BHMT-08 +/+ is the mildly beneficial version, also based on the published research.

BHMT and CBS SNPs which are known to have an impact are listed at:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-bhmt-and-bhmt2-variations.24512/ and
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-cbs-variations.24492/
Many thanks Valentijn. Its all very confusing. I need a course in biochemistry! Or perhaps a degree?!

Interesting that CBS C699T is being reported backwards - I am GG.
Bottom line is that my homocysteine is in normal range in spite of me having COMT++/++ and the BHMT02 and 08++. So I won't get too fussed about it for now.

I am more concerned re glutationine. On a Metametrix ION report (that I had done several years ago albeit) it showed high Pyroglutamate 107 (range ,=80 mch/mg crea)

The report said: Removal of toxic molecules and prevention of oxidative damage depends heavily on the compound glutathione. The essential amino acid methionine and the sulfur-containing antioxidant taurine are depleted when your liver detoxification pathways use more glutathione. Elevated levels of the marker pyroglutamate reveal that glutathione is being lost at a high rate. Sulfate excretion is another way to check your total body sulfur status. Sulfate was 327 (range =>180 mcg/mg/crea) but not marked as being H or L.

I do have markers for oxidative stress and so want to learn more about all this. I have some liposomal glutathione in my fridge but after doing a bit of reading on PR was not sure I should take it. Need more research on this too!

I will spend more time on the links above when I can look up my individual snps for CBS and BHMT on the 23andme report. I read somewhere that the snps reported on 23andme are not necessarily the ones most important for health but are more for lineage.

So much to learn!!! Many many thanks for all your work to educate us all.

Oci
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,049
Likes
4,247
Bottom line is that my homocysteine is in normal range
Homocysteine normal range is very misleading, because you want it between 6 and 7.5.
I have some liposomal glutathione in my fridge but after doing a bit of reading on PR was not sure I should take it.
The purpose of methylation and chelation (as per Cutler) is to make it endogenously. Some people do well on it though, and some don't.