Rethinking Probiotics.

[WillowJ]

I will try to read this later on histamine, it is too long for just now.

I had success resolving bloating with probiotics by reducing the dose.

But I'm very interesting in the histamine angle and will try to look later.

 

[manna]

i'll just paste a post from another forum. might be relevant, might not. :

bumped into a few ideas touching on some points made about aerobic fermentation creating an overabundance of acids and so being potentially unhealthy. some think that kefir or yoghurt, or other aerobically fermented foods, don't actually re-populate your gut at all, in one instance, because the microbes grown in our gut grow in an "anaerobic" environment--which is no, or very little, oxygen.

seems there's a current debate "raging" about this in american health circles and many seem to agree that fermentation should not be aerobic. there are a plethora of devices and airlocks (water bubble trap for lettibg co2 out but no air in), for fermenting now being sold

check out pickl it jars etc if you haven't, here...plus some good info on kefir http://gnowfglins.com/2012/11/14/fer...pickl-it-jars/

I liked that I could provide an oxygen-free environment for my kefir, much like how traditional kefir was made: in a bladder hung by the door that people would hit on the way by to shake it up. A bladder is an anaerobic container. It allows gasses to escape but prevents oxygen from entering.

you’ll prevent high histamine levels in your finished fermented foods

fermentation in the past, was generally without oxygen, just like the gut, but its been changed into aerobic. these aerobic microbes cannot adhere to the gut wall, or even multiply in your colon. on the other hand, fermentation in a similar environment to the gut might (some claim it does) create similar microbes. a little heat and oxygen means ferments can degrade quickly to lactic acid. doing it with a secure lid and a co2 bubble releaser means it's chances of creating acids is greatly reduced as no new oxygen gets in past the bubble trap.

the old tradition of "hanging" meat to improve digestability and taste, used to be done by pushing the animals tongue down its throat before hanging it. as it "hangs" in the air, this tongue pulls back to create a vacuum inside the anima,l so it ages in an airfree enevironment. i read in one of randolph stones books on polarity theray, of a report in early 20th century france, where there was a fad for yoghurt boothes (20's i think), until the people starting getting arthritic conditions arising from its use.

on one page about fermenting one method was to pour 1 cm of oil above the sour kraut so the bubbles can escape but no air is available to degrade with. you can by "kraut tops" too, which are designed to screw on to your jar to allow anaerobic instead of aerobic fermentation. the inuit used to bury some of the fish they caught, sometimes for up to a year, basically in a dark (underground), air minimal environment.

good link too> The 3 Biggest Fermenting Mistakes You’re Already Making?
http://www.foodrenegade.com/3-bigges...lready-making/

keep check for signs of acidity, like twitching or cramping/pain in the calf musclles etc, if you ferment your food.

 

[David mepoisontheory]

This is interesting about probiotics, because I've been looking at natural gut bacteria and their production of biogenic amines as a possible cause of ME/CFS. The body's own enzyme defences against biogenic amines need to be reduced or poisoned in some way for this theory to work.
The use of probiotics which actually make these amine oxidase enzymes could thus be beneficial. But if the probiotic produces too many biogenic amines symptoms would worsen.
Anyway, here's the basic idea:

More information at: mepoisontheory.wordpress.com

 

[drob31]

This is interesting about probiotics, because I've been looking at natural gut bacteria and their production of biogenic amines as a possible cause of ME/CFS. The body's own enzyme defences against biogenic amines need to be reduced or poisoned in some way for this theory to work.
The use of probiotics which actually make these amine oxidase enzymes could thus be beneficial. But if the probiotic produces too many biogenic amines symptoms would worsen.
Anyway, here's the basic idea:

More information at: mepoisontheory.wordpress.com

Would this ultimately lead to over production of cortisol?

 

[drob31]

What's everyone's opinion on Prescript-Assist? Chris Kresser recommends it, and it seems to be one of the only probiotics universally recommended.

I know KDM recommends mutaflor, but I'm having a hard time finding it in the states.

 

[ahmo]

I've been alternating PrescriptAssist w/ 2 others....opinions? not reallyBody seems to like it. I did the suggested 1 month course before switching to 1-2/week. Nice photo @drob31

 

[Gondwanaland]

I don't know if this has already been brought to attention here.

I was reading this article linked from another thread and found this:

Table 2: Some individual bacterial strains that influence the immune system [47].
Strain Effect

• L. casei Shirota Induced IL-12 production
• Heat-killed L. casei and L. fermentum Induced TNF-α production
• L. paracasei Ncc2461 Induced CD4+ T-cells to produce IL-10 and TGF-β
• L. rhamnosus GG with LPS Inhibited TNF-α,but not IL-10
• L. reuteri + L. brevis Induced TNF-α,IL-2,IL-1β
• L. rhamnasus + L. acidophilus + B. lactic Enhanced immunoreactivity of spleen cells and phagocytes
• L. acidophilis + L. delbrueckii ssp bulgaricus + B. bifidum Produced an anti-inflammatory response
• L. casei Shirota Inhibited translocation of NF-κB and production of IL-6

 

[drob31]

It seems like we would want to eliminate anything that induced TNF-a and IL1B/IL6, no?

 

[Gondwanaland]

It seems like we would want to eliminate anything that induced TNF-a and IL1B/IL6, no?

That's what I'm trying to find out

 

[kel88]

I only read the first paige i did order optibac for daily immunity. Should that be a good one? It cointains the b longum and b infantis.

I would like to take natures way probifia pearls but everywhere i look they are out of stock

 

[ahmo]

@kel88 that combo looks ok to me. Some of us (I don't know which SNPs don't do well with green tea. @Gondwanaland probably remembers which.

I've been using Nature's Way , in stock at iherb: http://www.iherb.com/Nature-s-Way-Primadophilus-Reuteri-Pearls-60-Capsules/14704#p=1&oos=1&disc=0&lc=en-US&w=probiotic pearls&rc=18&sr=null&ic=3

I alternate w/ PrescriptAssist soil-based, and OrthoMolecular OrthoBiotic

 

[Gondwanaland]

. @Gondwanaland probably remembers which.

Nope, sorry.

 

[kel88]

Ahmo i found that one to but i would try only bifido bacteria no lactobacil and i would try with the b. Infantis... And that does yours not included

I wrote iherb a message but they could not tell me when it will be back in stock
So i hope i can handle the one that i orderd... I hope it lowers my histaminica reactions

 

[drob31]

@kel88 have you ever looked into VSL3, or mutaflor (if in Germany)? There's also something called prescript-assist.

I'm experimenting with VSL3 now.

 

[kel88]

@drob31 uhhh Germany? Ho ho... In from holland , not German hihihi

I tryed mutaflor but it wasnt really working for me! VSL i read about it but didnt buy it! Ive got really bad cowmilk allergie ant this contain cowmilk so thats why i didnt buy it!
Did you try it?

I found something what is maybe also intressting!

Bodyecologie.com

Digestive multi also real improvment with candida overgrow!
Anybody who tryed it?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Are there any probiotics out there containing A2 dairy strains?

 

[Ema]

Here is a nice table listing many commonly available probiotics and their strains:

http://www.thecandidadiet.com/list-of-probiotics/

I'm not sure that they are the *best*, but it is a handy guide nonetheless.

 

[Peyt]

Here is a nice table listing many commonly available probiotics and their strains:

http://www.thecandidadiet.com/list-of-probiotics/

I'm not sure that they are the *best*, but it is a handy guide nonetheless.

It's interesting that list does not have "Prescript-Assist" which is the only one that has worked for my SIBO

 

[Gondwanaland]

It's interesting that list does not have "Prescript-Assist" which is the only one that has worked for my SIBO

It is only mentioned before the list

Edit: I tried the HO 2 yrs ago (they mentioned as a favorite along with prescrip assist) and it did absolutely nothing for me

 

[drob31]

It's interesting that list does not have "Prescript-Assist" which is the only one that has worked for my SIBO

I've tried prescript-assist and VSL#3. I want to try mutaflor, but have to travel to Canada to do so as it's not sold in the US.