Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

[Kathevans]

Interesting @Gondwanaland ! After 5 SOLID months of daily oxalate dumping, I'm experiencing more/deeper methylation for the possibly the first time. (Of course, I lowered my B-Complex as well and have increased a number of cofactors--magnesium, zinc, in particular). For me the symptoms of the oxalates were clear--the chronic diarrhea-like dump, sometimes as often as four or five times a day. That has receded to every other or every three days and interspersed with IBS. I most likely lowered my oxalates too quickly--from very/extremely high (think tons of nuts, dark chocolate[yum], sweet potatoes, Swiss chard) to low/medium. And that's still where it is.

My brother, who seems to have the same problem with oxalates, has never had the onset that I had. He had a slow worsening of tendonitis all over the place and now if he eats nuts, he notices it instantly the next day. He's a guitarist so this isn't a good thing.

I haven't moved on to a new probiotic yet. Too much for the moment, and I had lots of HMF Forte in my fridge. It has lactobacillus and bifidus, but also the infamous FOS. Little by little...

@Oci Btw, my oxalate issues started 2 years after taking xifaxan for SIBO. I had the OAT test only within the last two months and it showed that I'm not only high in oxalates, but also am likely an endogenous producer, which is to say, I do it all by myself. But my Alterna-doc says that candida can influence the production of oxalates--and I've probably read it in something @alicec has posted. It's like a cascade of symptoms!

Good luck!

 

[Oci]

@Oci 3 weeks ago I abbandoned everything else I was doing to pursue the oxalate theory. I am taking oxalate degrading probiotics which are helping me sleep very well, and the recommended B vitamins (from the Trying Low Oxalates Yahoo Group). I have stopped the oxalate overload in my diet, and keeping it at medium oxalates. No vegetable soup for me this winter (Southern Hemisphere).

Methylation stopped helping due to additional induced deficiencies (esp. vitamin K which I don't seem to tolerate so one possible way for me is to lower oxalates and try it indirectly via perhaps Clostridium butyricum).

Incidentally I was anemic and the recommended Bs serve this purpose as well, so I am feeling 1000% better than a few weeks ago.

There already is a lot of useful info gathered here in this thread (food and probiotics lists, etc), plus the moderator at the Yahoo Group is very helpful and answers questions quickly.

Many thanks, Gondwalaland. I feel encouraged by your post and will refine my knowledge of oxalate values in foods. Good to know that you too are finding the probiotics (ie VLS#3 for me) are helping with sleep. I feel pretty foggy in the head today with bad word recall so perhaps need to take some charcoal and MgC this evening.

I was at my daughter's for dinner and she had made a very "healthy" spinach. I did not have it but made one of romaine. Guess I need to alert my family to the dangers of a lot of high oxalates.

Yes, there is a lot of useful information here. I am always amazed at the depth of understanding that folks on PR have. Will read this thread again! Oci

 

[Oci]

Interesting @Gondwanaland ! After 5 SOLID months of daily oxalate dumping, I'm experiencing more/deeper methylation for the possibly the first time. (Of course, I lowered my B-Complex as well and have increased a number of cofactors--magnesium, zinc, in particular). For me the symptoms of the oxalates were clear--the chronic diarrhea-like dump, sometimes as often as four or five times a day. That has receded to every other or every three days and interspersed with IBS. I most likely lowered my oxalates too quickly--from very/extremely high (think tons of nuts, dark chocolate[yum], sweet potatoes, Swiss chard) to low/medium. And that's still where it is.

I haven't moved on to a new probiotic yet. Too much for the moment, and I had lots of HMF Forte in my fridge. It has lactobacillus and bifidus, but also the infamous FOS. Little by little...

@Oci Btw, my oxalate issues started 2 years after taking xifaxan for SIBO. I had the OAT test only within the last two months and it showed that I'm not only high in oxalates, but also am likely an endogenous producer, which is to say, I do it all by myself. But my Alterna-doc says that candida can influence the production of oxalates--and I've probably read it in something @alicec has posted. It's like a cascade of symptoms!

Good luck!

Hi Kath, I have been following some of your posts. I think we have some of the same snps. I am just getting started on methylation. Not sure what to do given I have the COMT++. Therefore I decided to take Yasko's All-in-one and Ultimate B.
First priority is to get rid of Candida and enterobacter cloacae that showed up on the CDSA and of course, to get this oxalate issue calmed down...if that is what it is.

Like you I have had tons of high oxalates ie spinach, almonds and other nuts, dark chocolate etc.

You said: (Of course, I lowered my B-Complex as well and have increased a number of cofactors--magnesium, zinc, in particular). I am wondering why you lowered your Bs. I am raising mine especially B6.

I am hoping that the VSL#3 will work for my symptoms. Perhaps the increase in symptoms is from dumping. I do know the HMF Forte very well.

How do you know that it was the xifaxan that was the cause of your oxalate problem?

I don't know if the candida influences production of oxalates or not. I think I read that Susan Oats says it doesn't. My feeling is that they co-exist at least in me. I am hoping that some of the info on oxalates from Amy Yasko will help.

All the best! Oci

 

[Gondwanaland]

I was at my daughter's for dinner and she had made a very "healthy" spinach. I did not have it but made one of romaine. Guess I need to alert my family to the dangers of a lot of high oxalates.

I printed out the food list and handed it out to my mom who already had kidney stones. Also forwarded it to my sis, and gave my brother a bottle of Mg citrate for this high blood pressure...

Not sure what to do given I have the COMT++

You need magnesium for this.

 

[Oci]

I printed out the food list and handed it out to my mom who already had kidney stones. Also forwarded it to my sis, and gave my brother a bottle of Mg citrate for this high blood pressure...


You need magnesium for this.

Yup. I have been taking lots of magnesium for a very long time. I do wonder, however, the best kinds to take. I used Mag Glycinate for several years but read somewhere that perhaps I should be having more glycine. Can't remember why now. I can only take a bit of Mag Citrate or will have the runs. I have Mag Threonate. Have some Mag Taurate too and it helps sleep for one night and then has a negative effect. I alternate them.

 

[Kathevans]

@Oci I've got a lot of problematic snps, including the Comt++ and I have upped my magnesium over the past year. I take a variety of kinds, daily citrate, which goes down well, sometimes malate, recently a chelated bisglycinate, which so far seems fine and has a rep, I think, of not causing bowel problems. I take about 500-600 mg/day.

The idea of keeping the lower Bs low comes from Freddd--and probably many others. That if these are too high, it can drive your potassium needs almost insatiably high. That said, sleepless and depressed, I broke that rule a few days ago and as of today have been chasing symptoms that are probably both potassium deficiency, as well as the paradoxical folate insufficiency. Yes, I know I need more MeB-12, but so far, I've had a hard time tolerating the sublingual. So, there you have it. I just took both more niacin and more potassium.

FYI, I was taking this B-Complex for years and had gone through all sorts of anxiety things, arriving finally at a point of increasing pain before I realized they'd changed the formula. I lowered the amount I took from 2 tabs/day to 1, which lowered many symptoms, but not the emotional-sleep ones, so I upped it. Here are the amounts I took for the last three days:

Country Life Coenzyme B TABLET IS:
Thiamine (B1 as from Thiamine Hydrochloride) (Thianine cocarboxylase chloride) 37.5 mg
Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2) (as riboflavin, riboflavin 5’phosphate) 37.5 mg
Niacin (as inositol hexaniacinate) 75 mg
Vitamin B-6 (Pyridoxine HCl, pyridoxal, 5’phosphate, pyridoxine alpha-ketoglutarate HCL) 60 mg
Folate (as Folic Acid,(6S)-5-Methyletrahydrofolate-glucosamine salt) 600 mcg
Vitamin B-12 (as dibencozide, methycobalamin) 37.5 mcg
Biotin (as d-Biotin) 150 mcg
Pantothenic Acid (as pantethine, calcium d-pantothenate) 37.5 mg
PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid)37.5 mg
Phosphatidylcholine (from soy)30 mg
Inositol (from Inositol Hexaniacinate) 19.5 mg
Alpha-Lipoic Acid 75 mcg


I'm going to have to find a way to cherrypick the Bs and add only some. That's my challenge. I know the B6 is important for oxalates, and as you see, I'm taking quite a bit--even with only one tab I was getting 25 mg. My lowest B according to the NutrEval test is B2.

 

[Kathevans]

Oh, and of course, I don't know for sure about the xifaxan and subsequent oxalates--I'm only guessing. But given my luck with mainstream medicine, it may be more likely than not...!

 

[Oci]

@Oci I've got a lot of problematic snps, including the Comt++ and I have upped my magnesium over the past year. I take a variety of kinds, daily citrate, which goes down well, sometimes malate, recently a chelated bisglycinate, which so far seems fine and has a rep, I think, of not causing bowel problems. I take about 500-600 mg/day.

The idea of keeping the lower Bs low comes from Freddd--and probably many others. That if these are too high, it can drive your potassium needs almost insatiably high. That said, sleepless and depressed, I broke that rule a few days ago and as of today have been chasing symptoms that are probably both potassium deficiency, as well as the paradoxical folate insufficiency. Yes, I know I need more MeB-12, but so far, I've had a hard time tolerating the sublingual. So, there you have it. I just took both more niacin and more potassium.

FYI, I was taking this B-Complex for years and had gone through all sorts of anxiety things, arriving finally at a point of increasing pain before I realized they'd changed the formula. I lowered the amount I took from 2 tabs/day to 1, which lowered many symptoms, but not the emotional-sleep ones, so I upped it. Here are the amounts I took for the last three days:

Country Life Coenzyme B TABLET IS:
Thiamine (B1 as from Thiamine Hydrochloride) (Thianine cocarboxylase chloride) 37.5 mg
Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2) (as riboflavin, riboflavin 5’phosphate) 37.5 mg
Niacin (as inositol hexaniacinate) 75 mg
Vitamin B-6 (Pyridoxine HCl, pyridoxal, 5’phosphate, pyridoxine alpha-ketoglutarate HCL) 60 mg
Folate (as Folic Acid,(6S)-5-Methyletrahydrofolate-glucosamine salt) 600 mcg
Vitamin B-12 (as dibencozide, methycobalamin) 37.5 mcg
Biotin (as d-Biotin) 150 mcg
Pantothenic Acid (as pantethine, calcium d-pantothenate) 37.5 mg
PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid)37.5 mg
Phosphatidylcholine (from soy)30 mg
Inositol (from Inositol Hexaniacinate) 19.5 mg
Alpha-Lipoic Acid 75 mcg


I'm going to have to find a way to cherrypick the Bs and add only some. That's my challenge. I know the B6 is important for oxalates, and as you see, I'm taking quite a bit--even with only one tab I was getting 25 mg. My lowest B according to the NutrEval test is B2.

Thanks Kath for explaining. There is so much to learn! Yes, you do have a load of snps!

Its good to know about the levels of Bs. I am pretty ignorant about the B vitamins but will learn. I'm still at the stage of learning the names! I have written down how much I am getting at the moment and will add up tomorrow.

I wish I had the Nutreval test to help. I did an ION test many years ago and I find some of that information helpful but who knows if it has changed. I will do another such test soon, I think. In the long run, it may save money. Supps are very expensive and I've bought many that I ended up not being able to tolerate. Some have definitely worked against me especially since I have the COMT++.

Yes, the B6 is important for oxalates BUT I think I read that it is somehow contraindicated if one has a CBS or sulfate problems. I just have the CBS A360A +- but also have the BHMT 02++ and 08++ which affect that pathway. There is much contradiction on this. Most disagree with Yasko. I haven't figured out if I have a problem there or not.

As for your B complex....I do think you would be better to cherry pick. I was taking Thorne Multi encap and finding brain fog and anxiety. I also tried some Activ B by Xymogen and could not manage that at all. This was before knowing my snps. I think it is the methyl groups that were affecting me. I am much better on Yasko's which are meant for everyone and very low in methyls. I know Fredd is keen on methyls for everyone.

I don't use much niacin. Less than 1/2 of a 50 mg capsule. I did try taking that amount at bedtime but then would wake up early and terribly anxious. I had a bad reaction too one day when I took 50 mg when I woke up anxious. I had a huge reaction - actually more of a fire - and felt faint but made it downstairs. My alarm system was going off and I headed over to turn it off and fainted. Glad I wasn't still on the stairs! I woke to it screeching and the bowl on the little table shattered. I managed to get up somehow and turn it off. I have never ever fainted before! I think this happened because I was dehydrated from overnight and also took it on an empty stomach. I perhaps had taken some niacin the night before too. Anyway I need to be careful of it. Both too much and too little seem to affect me.

I have found that when I take much in the way of methyl donors that I get very anxious.

Can you please tell me what are the symptoms of potassium deficiency? On the ION test that I had years ago I was very low in potassium and my ND at the time did not understand why. I have been taking some extra K.

Well, its getting past my bedtime and so will sign off. Hope you have a good sleep! Oci

 

[Gondwanaland]

I never tolerated Mg Glycinate - I definetly convert the glycine into oxalates.

I really don't understand how people can take magnesium indefinetly. I took it at 600mg (mag oxide) for 5 weeks and now the tiniest bit I take makes me feel calcium deficiency symptoms.

I am looking for a Mag Taurate for my husband now since he does well on Taurine (I don't).

 

[Oci]

I never tolerated Mg Glycinate - I definetly convert the glycine into oxalates.

I really don't understand how people can take magnesium indefinetly. I took it at 600mg (mag oxide) for 5 weeks and now the tiniest bit I take makes me feel calcium deficiency symptoms.

I am looking for a Mag Taurate for my husband now since he does well on Taurine (I don't).

Here is an article on glycine and oxalates and deficiency of B6.
http://www.jbc.org/content/234/9/2391.full.pdf
Guess I won't be taking any more MgGly. Will be getting B6 level up!

What are calcium deficiency symptoms? What are potassium deficiencies? I guess I am not tuned into my body on those ones. Mag Taurate should be easy to find. Oci

 

[Gondwanaland]

What are calcium deficiency symptoms? What are potassium deficiencies? I guess I am not tuned into my body on those ones.

You can explore the link in my sig "Balancing nutrients". My low calcium symptoms are rigidity in calves.

 

[Kathevans]

@Gondwanaland You know, I may have problems with the magnesium, those tight calves. Although i do take some calcium. All of this just seems so difficult to me. I've got so many aches and pains, I don't know what they belong to.(Thanks for the heads up about mag glycinate--I had no idea it converted to oxalates).

@Oci Yes, I'm spending today doing some research on individual Bs. And as to potassium deficiency symptoms, the best list is probably Fredd's, which you'll find a copy of on this thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...aradoxical-folate-deficiency-in-papers.27470/

That said, I took a fair amount of potassium yesterday and found it impossible to sleep before 3 a.m. I wonder if this happens to anyone else. I know @Gondwanaland you can't tolerate potassium, but just now I don't recall why.

Sorry, my brain is fried today. Having a tough one.

 

[Kathevans]

@Oci, it also occurs to me to say that the NutrEval test I had last December is probably useless at this point, given I was eating high ox foods and that I've been dumping for the last five months. I can see from my reaction to the Bs that this is a brand new me. The old stuff isn't working anymore; I'm trying to figure her out.

 

[Oci]

I'm just wondering if you can lead me to the list of B's that Freddd likes. I am adding mine up and would like to know what he considers ideal. Thanks. Oci

 

[Gondwanaland]

I'm just wondering if you can lead me to the list of B's that Freddd likes. I am adding mine up and would like to know what he considers ideal. Thanks. Oci

There are some summaries to Freddd's in my sig

 

[Gondwanaland]

I may have problems with the magnesium, those tight calves

That could be the glycinate, I had that when I was trying it.

I know @Gondwanaland you can't tolerate potassium, but just now I don't recall why.

It overdrives my urea cycle (pee all the time), my gums and teeth roots ache terribly, adrenals definetly prefer more sodium, plus I don't feel well overall.

Sorry, my brain is fried today. Having a tough one.

 

[Kathevans]

I've been staring at B supplements most of the day. The problem is, most of them are for high-doses. More than the 25-30 or so that Freddd suggests. Ben Lynch's B-Minus has lower doses EXCEPT for Niacin and Biotin (Not for you, @Oci! What a terrible episode, the fainting. So sorry.)

I'm running away. Metaphorically anyway.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I think this happened because I was dehydrated from overnight

It happened to me once as well, being dehydrated and couldn't stand on my feet and passing out

@Kathevans you will have to bite the bullet and buy the Bs separately, buy empty capsules and a Chinese scale

For instance:

http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-GEMINI-20-Portable-MilliGram/dp/B0012TDNAM/

I do it without the scale, I usually empty a capsule and just divide it into 4 or 8 approximately equal parts and put it in a new capsule, and inside a labeled jar. I have caps in size 0, which are easily manageable.

 

[Oci]

It happened to me once as well, being dehydrated and couldn't stand on my feet and passing out

Good to know that it isn't peculiar to me!

I found your list of the B vitamins you were planning to take. Pretty low amounts compared to what I am getting in the Yasko All-in-One 2x/d and 1 Ultimate B. Maybe I'd do a lot better on a lot less!

Oci

 

[Gondwanaland]

Pretty low amounts

I am a hyper-reactive person