Dreambirdie
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@Kathevans Could you post a link to the low dose Country LIfe B complex. I tried to find it on iHerb and found only ones with higher levels of Bs. Thanks.
Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?
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Kathevans
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@Dreambirdie
Yikes! I think you're referring to the Country Life Coenzymated B-Complex that I took for over a decade and that somehow in recent years switched their B-12 and folate to the active, methylated forms, leading me over time into a very painful methylation block or trap. For me, with snps that show a higher need for B-12, I ran into what Freddd calls a 'paradoxical folate insufficiency.'
I've been surprised and dismayed at how long it has taken me to get off this supplement--months of cutting it back and adding it in again, as I roller-coasted through depression and mania and sleeplessness. Little by little, though, I seem to be more settled without it. At one point I was taking 1/2 of a tablet/day which gave me roughly 12 1/2 mg of many of the lower Bs. The 2 tablet /day recommendation has you getting 50 of each of the lower Bs, 800 mcg of methyl-folate and 500 mcg of Methyl B-12. So unless you can handle the methylating agents (even at 1/2 tablet), be careful! I know many here are doing quite well with them--and 1/2 tablet could work for you.
But for me, well, I'm still surprised how sensitive I am to them as I 'dry out' so to speak. I tried adding back some B6, both as simple pyridoxine and as p-5-p and both made my symptoms of folate-block worse. I'm trying to listen to my body--the symptoms that keep showing themselves.
What I decided to take was the Nature Made B-complex which has no folate or B-12. This way when I decide to try a methylating agent--and given my snps, I'm pretty sure it's going to be the B-12, I'll get to see what it alone does for me--given my diet, of course, which certainly has some folate and B-12 as I'm an omnivore!
Kathleen
Yikes! I think you're referring to the Country Life Coenzymated B-Complex that I took for over a decade and that somehow in recent years switched their B-12 and folate to the active, methylated forms, leading me over time into a very painful methylation block or trap. For me, with snps that show a higher need for B-12, I ran into what Freddd calls a 'paradoxical folate insufficiency.'
I've been surprised and dismayed at how long it has taken me to get off this supplement--months of cutting it back and adding it in again, as I roller-coasted through depression and mania and sleeplessness. Little by little, though, I seem to be more settled without it. At one point I was taking 1/2 of a tablet/day which gave me roughly 12 1/2 mg of many of the lower Bs. The 2 tablet /day recommendation has you getting 50 of each of the lower Bs, 800 mcg of methyl-folate and 500 mcg of Methyl B-12. So unless you can handle the methylating agents (even at 1/2 tablet), be careful! I know many here are doing quite well with them--and 1/2 tablet could work for you.
But for me, well, I'm still surprised how sensitive I am to them as I 'dry out' so to speak. I tried adding back some B6, both as simple pyridoxine and as p-5-p and both made my symptoms of folate-block worse. I'm trying to listen to my body--the symptoms that keep showing themselves.
What I decided to take was the Nature Made B-complex which has no folate or B-12. This way when I decide to try a methylating agent--and given my snps, I'm pretty sure it's going to be the B-12, I'll get to see what it alone does for me--given my diet, of course, which certainly has some folate and B-12 as I'm an omnivore!
Kathleen
I'll attach it again, also the lists of known oxalate degrading probiotics. Add Jerusalem artichokes to the extremely high category. It's not on the list because I don't like this vegetable but others might.
Dreambirdie
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Okay then, that's a great idea to take the B12 and folate separately.
Is this the one.. with the Vitamin C (which is most likely made from GMO corn)...?
[URL='http://www.iherb.com/Nature-Made-B-Complex-with-Vitamin-C-100-Caplets/54158#p=1&oos=1&disc=0&lc=en-US&w=nature%20made%20b-complex&rc=5265&sr=null&ic=1']http://www.iherb.com/Nature-Made-B-Complex-with-Vitamin-C-100-Caplets/54158#p=1&oos=1&disc=0&lc=en-US&w=nature made b-complex&rc=5265&sr=null&ic=1[/URL]
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Kathevans
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Gee, I think Vit C would more likely come from citrus than corn...
In any case, many biologically active molecules are made from genetically modified organisms. Insulin, for example, is made from genetically modified bacteria, where it used to be made from the pancreases of slaughtered pigs. The GMO insulin is actually better for humans because it's made from human rather than pig insulin!
This from my scientific husband. Not that I want GMOs in my food. On the contrary. I certainly believe in product labeling so we have the choice... But that's another topic!
Dreambirdie
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Thanks. It's interesting to see the list of oxalate degrading probiotics, though I really question how accurate it is. Certain probiotics can be problematic and inflammatory for certain people... and some, if they contain any dairy at all, can be allergenic for those who have dairy allergies. The bad effects in that case would cancel out any of the purported good (oxalate degrading) effects, and make someone significantly sicker.
As with everything, there is never one product that is "superior" and most effective for ALL people concerned. I have learned that lesson the hard way many times and now I let my body be the final judge.
This is simply a small scale study that looked at oxalate degrading capacity in vitro of a limited number of probiotics. It gives a quantitative measure so they can be ranked - certainly it is more accurate than a gut feeling.
I think you are reading far more into a small study than the study itself claims. It provides information about oxalate degrading capacity - no more no less. People who think oxalates could be an issue for them must then apply it in light of their own particular sensitivities.
Dreambirdie
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In vitro is not in vivo... so there's the catch.
And I always trust my gut when it comes to probiotics.
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So I think I've got some issues here people. 4-5 days a week for the last 1.5 years I've been eating large quantities of Spinach.
8 oz of Spinach each day. I calculated it to roughly 6800mg of oxalates per week.
I've been working out each of these days and eating very healthy, but I recently stopped working out and eating the Spinach in late May. By early June I developed 3 corneal ulcers in my eyes, an elevated ESR, and super high ANA.
Other than what's going on in my eyes, an an occasional sharp pain in my back, I have zero joint pain. But there is major damage to my eyes, and I have an expensive treatment this coming Monday to treat them.
Any idea if the oxalates could be connected to this? You all seem to be the experts on this.
8 oz of Spinach each day. I calculated it to roughly 6800mg of oxalates per week.
I've been working out each of these days and eating very healthy, but I recently stopped working out and eating the Spinach in late May. By early June I developed 3 corneal ulcers in my eyes, an elevated ESR, and super high ANA.
Other than what's going on in my eyes, an an occasional sharp pain in my back, I have zero joint pain. But there is major damage to my eyes, and I have an expensive treatment this coming Monday to treat them.
Any idea if the oxalates could be connected to this? You all seem to be the experts on this.
The eye is a known site for deposition of oxalate crystals; symptoms associated with this (and with oxalate dumping) that I am aware of are sharp stabbing pains, blurred vision and grittiness.
I've not come across any link with corneal ulcers but I'm no expert, especially on the eye!
Gondwanaland
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I have had that symptom while eating high oxalate foods, esp. a "drill" in the coccix. Magnesium supplementation helped a lot with that.
Join https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Trying_Low_Oxalates/conversations/messages , once you are a member you can ask for an invitation to the Facebook group. Also in addition to the discussions, there are a lot of documents to read in the files section at the Yahoo group.
Also:
http://www.lowoxalate.info/
Good luck!
Gondwanaland
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@DukeofNY I hope you have read about reducing Ox intake very slowly to avoid such harmful Ox dumps...
I'm still having problems with itchy privates and slight ache in bladder. I've taken both colloidal silver and Grapefruit seed extract along with S. boulardi and UltraFlora Women's (l. reuteri and l.rhamnosus). I also have taken some VSL#3 but it seemed to make things worse. Perhaps a lot of detox? I will reduce amount and try again.
I see the doctor on Thursday but he may not have any ideas on this. He knows about oxalates but is new to it and not totally convinced that is my problem. I too still wonder if I am dealing with Candida which tested 2+ a couple of months ago. My diet certainly has not been stellar as I was traveling and had to eat whatever was available as a guest. I also believe that the good bacteria need starch to survive and have had some potato salads for the resistant starch.
I am wondering what the recommended supps (and amounts) are for endogenous production of oxalates? Anyone know? I did have that info but can't find it now. I will ramp up to a high dose of Biotin.
Any advice? Oci
I see the doctor on Thursday but he may not have any ideas on this. He knows about oxalates but is new to it and not totally convinced that is my problem. I too still wonder if I am dealing with Candida which tested 2+ a couple of months ago. My diet certainly has not been stellar as I was traveling and had to eat whatever was available as a guest. I also believe that the good bacteria need starch to survive and have had some potato salads for the resistant starch.
I am wondering what the recommended supps (and amounts) are for endogenous production of oxalates? Anyone know? I did have that info but can't find it now. I will ramp up to a high dose of Biotin.
Any advice? Oci
Well, I did find a post by Karla Wiersmak on Trying Low Oxalates and have copied here.
How do these B levels sound? I don't want to go too high on Bs and require huge amounts of potassium.
I have been taking Yasko's All-in-One Multi and she keeps B6 very low - not sure why? Can anyone tell me?
Supplements for Endogenous Oxalate Production (according to Karla)
For endogenous producers, the culprit is typically B1 and/or B6 deficiencies coupled with oxidative stress. However, there are multiple forms of B1 and B6, so finding which form of each that is causing the issue is trial and error. The form that triggers dumping is the form you need.
For B6 the dose is typically 5 mg per/kg, so for 72.5 kg, the optimal dose you'd work up to is about 350 mg of Pyridoxine HCl (or regular B6). Pyridoxal 5 phosphate (or P5P) is a more potent form of B6, so Id use less, closer to 175 mg. Magnesium is also a cofactor, so you want to take double the amount of magnesium to B6, so 700 mg if you’re taking regular B6, 350 mg if your taking P5P.
There are a few forms of B1, but the ones we typically see tied to endogenous production are thiamine, benfotiamine, and allithiamine. The latter 2 are fat soluble. I don’t know the optimal dose for regular thiamine, but most work up to 250-300 mg of benfotiamine and 50 mg of allithiamine.
I’d start them one at a time and at a low dose, 25 mg of B6 and increase by 5 mg each week. If you don’t see dumping with one form after 2-3 weeks, then Id switch to the other form.
Then add the B1 in, again at 25 mg and increasing by 5 mg every week and switch forms if you don’t see dumping.
Our doc uses a BioScan to help determine antioxidant doses. Ian takes glutathione, N-Acetyl Cysteine, a glutathione precursor, CoQ10, and astaxanthin.
How do these B levels sound? I don't want to go too high on Bs and require huge amounts of potassium.
I have been taking Yasko's All-in-One Multi and she keeps B6 very low - not sure why? Can anyone tell me?
Supplements for Endogenous Oxalate Production (according to Karla)
For endogenous producers, the culprit is typically B1 and/or B6 deficiencies coupled with oxidative stress. However, there are multiple forms of B1 and B6, so finding which form of each that is causing the issue is trial and error. The form that triggers dumping is the form you need.
For B6 the dose is typically 5 mg per/kg, so for 72.5 kg, the optimal dose you'd work up to is about 350 mg of Pyridoxine HCl (or regular B6). Pyridoxal 5 phosphate (or P5P) is a more potent form of B6, so Id use less, closer to 175 mg. Magnesium is also a cofactor, so you want to take double the amount of magnesium to B6, so 700 mg if you’re taking regular B6, 350 mg if your taking P5P.
There are a few forms of B1, but the ones we typically see tied to endogenous production are thiamine, benfotiamine, and allithiamine. The latter 2 are fat soluble. I don’t know the optimal dose for regular thiamine, but most work up to 250-300 mg of benfotiamine and 50 mg of allithiamine.
I’d start them one at a time and at a low dose, 25 mg of B6 and increase by 5 mg each week. If you don’t see dumping with one form after 2-3 weeks, then Id switch to the other form.
Then add the B1 in, again at 25 mg and increasing by 5 mg every week and switch forms if you don’t see dumping.
Our doc uses a BioScan to help determine antioxidant doses. Ian takes glutathione, N-Acetyl Cysteine, a glutathione precursor, CoQ10, and astaxanthin.
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I also received an email from Nancy Mullen, MD this morning. She is an associate of Amy Yasko's. Here is an interesting post on Oxalates...This information has been excerpted from Dr. Amy’s online book Feel Good Biochemistry, that can be found at www.FeelGoodBiochem.com. I might add that Susan Owens, researcher and owner of Trying Low Oxalates refutes most of what Amy Yasko has to say on oxalates....and other things too!
"A number of programs and tests focus on high oxalate, which is also called oxalic acid. Dr. Amy Yasko’s program integrates the issue of high oxalate into a larger concern about overall biochemical balance. The most frequent response to high oxalate is the implementation of a diet low in oxalate foods. This is the quickest way to get oxalate down in the short run. However, there are a number of factors that may trigger high oxalate levels. A determination if the trigger is, for example, high yeast or fungi, a lack of B12, or low ATP, is made through interpretation of testing. The reason for the high oxalate then guides your decisions as to how you address the problem.
High oxalate may be due to yeast and fungal infestation. These factors can be investigated with stool testing and appropriate action taken.
High oxalate can also be caused by low B12. Low B12 makes the Krebs Citric Acid energy cycle run in a reverse direction, which increases oxalate. Check serum B12 or cobalt levels. Keep in mind that many people with chronic health issues turn out to be low lithium. Lithium transports B12 into your cells. If your lithium is low, your B12 and/or folic acid may appear high on serum testing. They are not getting transported into your cells, so high values for these two critical nutrients may indicate that you need to supplement with nutritional lithium.
The Krebs cycle is the energy/ATP generating function of the mitochondria in your cells. Your level of B12 impacts enzymes in the Krebs cycle, and the levels of Krebs intermediates are affected. Oxalate is a Krebs intermediate. Conditions of B12 deficiency, coming either as a result of mutations in the methylation cycle, and/or by high level depletion of B12 through endurance training or sports, can lead to increased levels of oxalate. High levels of tartrate in the absence of high arabinose, or high levels of fumarate, should lead you to consider supplementing with multiple forms and routes of B12. This includes chewable hydroxyl, adenosyl, and methyl B12. The relative amounts depend on your Nutrigenomics.
If you have high oxalate levels, you should consider increasing your B12 support. Other supplementation also aids in the productive conversion of oxalate.
The levels of certain amino acids may indicate high oxalate. There are three branched chain amino acids, leucine, isoleucine and valine. High leucine in the absence of high valine or isoleucine can occur secondary to low phosphate. This may also cause increases in oxalate, so check to determine if leucine is high and what your phosphate levels are. High oxalate may also be due to excess glycine secondary to SHMT + or excess iron. If threonine is high, this may be an indication of high oxalic acid.
High levels of citrate or high levels of the intermediates that precede acetyl CoA on the Metabolic Analysis Profile diagram, i.e., pyruvate, lactate, etc., may be an indirect indication of high oxalate, as the cycle is not incorporating at 11:00 (oxalate) well enough to be moving around to 1:00 (citrate) properly. Also, a build up at 1:00 (citrate) may be causing a backup in the cycle, which may be an indirect indication of high oxalate.
Aluminum and thallium can impair the function of the Krebs cycle, so address thallium and aluminum if they are found to be elevated."
Is this the right place for these last 3 posts? Or is there another thread more appropriate? I am still working on the probiotics angle for whatever ails me!
"A number of programs and tests focus on high oxalate, which is also called oxalic acid. Dr. Amy Yasko’s program integrates the issue of high oxalate into a larger concern about overall biochemical balance. The most frequent response to high oxalate is the implementation of a diet low in oxalate foods. This is the quickest way to get oxalate down in the short run. However, there are a number of factors that may trigger high oxalate levels. A determination if the trigger is, for example, high yeast or fungi, a lack of B12, or low ATP, is made through interpretation of testing. The reason for the high oxalate then guides your decisions as to how you address the problem.
High oxalate may be due to yeast and fungal infestation. These factors can be investigated with stool testing and appropriate action taken.
High oxalate can also be caused by low B12. Low B12 makes the Krebs Citric Acid energy cycle run in a reverse direction, which increases oxalate. Check serum B12 or cobalt levels. Keep in mind that many people with chronic health issues turn out to be low lithium. Lithium transports B12 into your cells. If your lithium is low, your B12 and/or folic acid may appear high on serum testing. They are not getting transported into your cells, so high values for these two critical nutrients may indicate that you need to supplement with nutritional lithium.
The Krebs cycle is the energy/ATP generating function of the mitochondria in your cells. Your level of B12 impacts enzymes in the Krebs cycle, and the levels of Krebs intermediates are affected. Oxalate is a Krebs intermediate. Conditions of B12 deficiency, coming either as a result of mutations in the methylation cycle, and/or by high level depletion of B12 through endurance training or sports, can lead to increased levels of oxalate. High levels of tartrate in the absence of high arabinose, or high levels of fumarate, should lead you to consider supplementing with multiple forms and routes of B12. This includes chewable hydroxyl, adenosyl, and methyl B12. The relative amounts depend on your Nutrigenomics.
If you have high oxalate levels, you should consider increasing your B12 support. Other supplementation also aids in the productive conversion of oxalate.
The levels of certain amino acids may indicate high oxalate. There are three branched chain amino acids, leucine, isoleucine and valine. High leucine in the absence of high valine or isoleucine can occur secondary to low phosphate. This may also cause increases in oxalate, so check to determine if leucine is high and what your phosphate levels are. High oxalate may also be due to excess glycine secondary to SHMT + or excess iron. If threonine is high, this may be an indication of high oxalic acid.
High levels of citrate or high levels of the intermediates that precede acetyl CoA on the Metabolic Analysis Profile diagram, i.e., pyruvate, lactate, etc., may be an indirect indication of high oxalate, as the cycle is not incorporating at 11:00 (oxalate) well enough to be moving around to 1:00 (citrate) properly. Also, a build up at 1:00 (citrate) may be causing a backup in the cycle, which may be an indirect indication of high oxalate.
Aluminum and thallium can impair the function of the Krebs cycle, so address thallium and aluminum if they are found to be elevated."
Is this the right place for these last 3 posts? Or is there another thread more appropriate? I am still working on the probiotics angle for whatever ails me!
Gondwanaland
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That list is incomplete. They are also recomending Biotin up to 30 mg
And some B5.I do not intend to take B1 and P-5-P any higher than 20mg. The highest biotin dosage I have ever taken is 600mcg.
I might not get anywhere with these low doses, but I know myself I know I can't tolerate anything high dose.
Plus once you start taking B vits, you tend to need more B2 to activate them. And it obviously is a snowball of vitamin and mineral depletion.
Here is my regime, it is intended for normocytic anemia, but it also works for oxalates.
That is the upper level you should be aiming for but really it is what is tolerable to you. And as @Gondwanaland says biotin and pantothenic acid may also be important.
Essentially it is antioxidants and B6 that might help overcome the enzyme problem that lead to endogenous oxalate production. B1, B5 and biotin help address other enzyme problems secondary to oxalate accumulation.
Personally I'm not a Yasko fan - she has made too many serious errors and I wasn't impressed with the quote from Nancy Mullins.
That sounds like gobbledegook to me.
Oxaloacetate, not oxalate is part of the Krebs cycle. They are different molecules with completely different roles. There is an obscure link which we talked about somewhere earlier in this thread, but it is obscure.
I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack, but even I know that the following is just laughable:
"High oxalate can also be caused by low B12. Low B12 makes the Krebs Citric Acid energy cycle run in a reverse direction."
I would email Nancy Mullan (or Amy Yasko) back and ask for a reference for that claim. And speaking of Dr. Mullan, check out her reviews -- not exactly reassuring:
http://www.yelp.com/biz/nancy-mullan-md-burbank
"High oxalate can also be caused by low B12. Low B12 makes the Krebs Citric Acid energy cycle run in a reverse direction."
I would email Nancy Mullan (or Amy Yasko) back and ask for a reference for that claim. And speaking of Dr. Mullan, check out her reviews -- not exactly reassuring:
http://www.yelp.com/biz/nancy-mullan-md-burbank