Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

[Asklipia]

I found this http://omsi.in/shop/oxalobact-capsules-10-per-strip/ and was in the process of ordering when I discovered the postage charges. The flat rate charge for postage out of India (up to 500 g) is 4,000 rupees.

I did expect to pay hefty postage but this seems like a lot. Will look a bit further and maybe have some email correspondence with this Indian online pharmacy. Maybe they will be amenable to change.

I found a way to get OXALOBACT! I just walked into an Indian grocer's shop, explained my problem and my scientific interest and hopes. Explained what we are doing here on PR. They want to help for good karma and to save the people.
Presto! Someone will either post it to them or bring it over.
As soon as it gets here I shall try it and report.
Intrepid Asklipia

 

[alicec]

I found a way to get OXALOBACT!

Congratulations. You have reminded me to renew my efforts. I am distracted by other problems and have let it slip.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Jaminet recovered from an MS-like illness, and Owens was diagnosed with MS late last year. So who to believe?

I think Owens practiced extreme antagonization of vit D for too long

 

[JPV]

Jaminet recovered from an MS-like illness, and Owens was diagnosed with MS late last year. So who to believe?

As much as I'm a big proponent of Jaminet's work I don't think anybody is 100% correct. As far as I'm concerned there is no "one size fits all" diet that works for everyone. It's just too complex. I incorporate some of his ideas but not all. I exclude a lot of stuff that he thinks is ok because of any allergic reactions that I may have. The main thing I take away from Jaminet is to avoid inflammatory foods, such as grains, sugars and corn. I'm still wrestling with whether his starch recommendations are too high for me or not.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I found an interesting study about how lysine dissolves CaOx kidney stones. Wondering about CaOx other than in the kidneys...
If anyone is interested in reading the whole study, just PM me

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24057683
Influence of the lysine on the calcium oxalate renal calculi.
Int Urol Nephrol. 2014 Mar;46(3):593-7. doi: 10.1007/s11255-013-0532-x. Epub 2013 Sep 21.

Abstract
Plasma levels and urinary excretions of amino acid lysine were estimated by high-performance liquid chromatography in 15 control subjects and 56 stone formers (SFs) with calcium oxalate (CaOX) urolithiasis. Data demonstrated clearly that there is a general tendency toward decreased lysine's excretions in above 40% of SFs. Moreover, it was found that DL-lysine, a normal physiological constituent of urine, acts at increased concentrations as a dissolving agent with respect to CaOX and CaOX calculi. The kinetics of dissolution of crystalline calcium oxalate calculi in physiological solutions containing DL-lysine at different concentrations is studied, using the change in the Archimedean weight of samples immersed in the solution. The possible effect of lysine as a natural regulator of CaOX supersaturation and crystallization in human urine is also discussed.

Another study by the same author as a free download:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3838840/
Hippuric Acid as a Significant Regulator of Supersaturation in Calcium Oxalate Lithiasis: The Physiological Evidence
Stoyanka S. Atanassova 1 ,* and Ivan S. Gutzow 2
Biomed Res Int. 2013; 2013: 374950.
Published online 2013 Nov 7. doi: 10.1155/2013/374950
PMCID: PMC3838840

Abstract
At present, the clinical significance of existing physicochemical and biological evidence and especially the results we have obtained from our previous in vitro experiments have been analyzed, and we have come to the conclusion that hippuric acid (C6H5CONHCH2COOH) is a very active solvent of Calcium Oxalate (CaOX) in physiological solutions. Two types of experiments have been discussed: clinical laboratory analysis on the urine excretion of hippuric acid (HA) in patients with CaOX lithiasis and detailed measurements of the kinetics of the dissolution of CaOX calculi in artificial urine, containing various concentrations of HA. It turns out that the most probable value of the HA concentration in the control group is approximately ten times higher than the corresponding value in the group of the stone-formers. Our in vitro analytical measurements demonstrate even a possibility to dissolve CaOX stones in human urine, in which increased concentration of HA have been established. A conclusion can be that drowning out HA is a significant regulator of CaOX supersaturation and thus a regulation of CaOX stone formation in human urine. Discussions have arisen to use increased concentration of HA in urine both as a solubilizator of CaOX stones in the urinary tract and on the purpose of a prolonged metaphylactic treatment.

1. Introduction
Calcium oxalate stones are the most common type of stones in urolithiasis in developed countries [1–3]. In addition, it is very important that the formation of such stones is caused by some gastrointestinal diseases [4].

...............

A study involving 186 calcium oxalate stone formers with and without hyperoxaluria demonstrated an inverse association between urinary oxalate excretion and dietary calcium intake, and a positive relationship with dietary ascorbate [7].

Also free download:

http://www.nature.com/ki/journal/v63/n3/abs/4493525a.html
Dietary risk factors for hyperoxaluria in calcium oxalate stone formers
Conclusions These findings suggest that hyperoxaluria predominantly results from increased endogenous production and from intestinal hyperabsorption of oxalate, partly caused by an insufficient supply or low availability of calcium for complexation with oxalate in the intestinal lumen.

Unfortunately the studies are focused on stone formation, which in not the case for anyone here I suppose. But I have been wondering why I seem to benefit so much from lysine (in whey powder) other than its ammonia clearing properties.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I am adding some (apparently) interesting links here for initial reading on oxalates:
I personally have very few symptoms from the lists reported below, but I know it is an important issue to me b/c I took warfarin in the past and surely have soft tissue calcification from that time (no kidney stones).

http://realfoodforager.com/oxalate-4-reasons-to-avoid-it/

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/oxalates/

http://www.lovingourguts.com/what-are-oxalates-2/

http://oxvox.com/oxalate-dumping-symptoms-what-to-expect/

http://alwayswellwithin.com/2010/04/27/high-oxalate-foods-can-trigger-pain-and-inflammation/

http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/the-role-of-oxalates-in-autism-and-chronic-disorders/

http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/home/eng/oxalates.asp

 

[alicec]

I found a way to get OXALOBACT!

It took me a while to get on to it again but I think I have succeeded also. After no response from any manufacturer and no other avenue that I could find (and no handy Indian grocery stores) I went back to the Indian Online pharmacy that I referenced above. As @Asklepia found this seems to be the only place that will ship internationally.

Placing the order was easy, arranging payment not so. My bank didn't offer the option of internet international transfer which it does for some other currencies and I wasn't willing to give my credit card details. This morning I rang my bank and they are willing to do the transfer of funds so that is now in train.

Will let you know if and when I see the goods.

 

[alicec]

I found an interesting study about how lysine dissolves CaOx kidney stones

Thanks so much @Gondwanaland for finding these and other papers. The one you posted on the role of glyoxal in endogenous oxalate formation was particularly interesting.

 

[alicec]

Over the past couple of months I have been struggling with an ongoing deterioration that I just haven't been able to really understand. I did identify various issue and addressing them helped a bit but the deterioration has continued.

Finally in the past week the main source of this problem has become clear. Unlike some who have posted on this and other threads who are experiencing the unpleasant consequences of oxalate dumping, for me it seems that all the good work that I have done in the past in reducing my body's oxalate stores has been undone and I am steadily accumulating oxalate again. My problem is that I am not dumping!

This is so disappointing not to mention disconcerting but the symptoms have become unmistakeable. Things I thought I had long put behind me are steadily coming back.

Initially it was general symptoms that could be attributable to many things such as increasing muscle pain, brain fog, blurred vision, fatigue. These have continued to worsen but it wasn't until I realised that I had considerable pain around old injury sites that the suspicion about oxalates became much stronger. The final straw was getting nauseous after drinking certain teas (ie ones higher in oxalate). This latter aversion to even medium oxalate foods was what alerted me to the whole oxalate problem in the first place (now almost 2 years ago).

I don't really know why this has happened. Yes I have become a bit more relaxed about diet but have only added a few more medium ox foods. I can't see that this could have a major impact. Stopping VSL-3 could be more of an issue since there does seem to be a signalling mechanism from the gut that oxalate digesting bacteria are present before oxalate will be dumped. Still I am surprised that it could have so profound an impact.

I presume that something else that I don't understand is behind it so this doesn't make it easy to work out what to do about it.

All I can do is be more vigorous in pursuing measures that I know have been helpful in the past and keep puzzling about what has changed and led to this new situation.

So more care with diet, daily VSL-3 (or the Oxalobact if and when it arrives), increase B6, try some new antioxidants. I think I'll resort to butyrate enemas which I discovered by accident resulted in spectacular oxalate dumping, though this time I'll use a lot less butyrate. I don't think I could cope with that level of discomfort again.

I had backed off on pre and probiotics wondering it they were contributing to my problems. That doesn't seem to be the case so I'll reintroduce at least the ones that I have tolerated in the past. Might not experiment with new ones for a while though until I can stabilise things.

Of course at the back of my mind is the question of whether some of the changes I have induced in my gut have in someway contributed to the change in oxalates. I have no idea how this would work but will think more about it when the brain fog has lifted a bit.

 

[Gondwanaland]

All I can do is be more vigorous in pursuing measures that I know have been helpful in the past and keep puzzling about what has changed and led to this new situation.

What do you do to address the liver?

Despite the obvious importance of oxalate in stone formation, many aspects of its biochemistry, physiology and function have been poorly characterized, including its synthesis which occurs primarily in the liver.

Butyrate enemas? How much butyrate was too much? Isn't butyrate from CB enough? It was for me

 

[Gondwanaland]

Presently I can relate many issues I've had during several years were due to oxalate overload and dump.

Some time ago I read that most people with autoimmune disorders also have underlying kidney issues.

One year ago I had salicylate intolerance and reversed it by doing a magnesium load. I took 600mg daily for about 5 weeks.

Afterwards I saw a nephrologist who ordered a 24 h urine test and some blood tests. I was expecting a high uric acid reading, but since I had just been coming from a high Mg intake, my serum uric acid was the lowest ever at 5.0 (2.4 - 5.7 mg/dL), and the oxalate in 24h urine very low at 17 mg (24 - 47 mg / 24 h).

I... just forgot what I was going to ask.

 

[Kathevans]

@alicec I'm sorry to hear about your revisiting symptoms and will watch for new approaches that help, as well as your refocus on some of the old. You've been a fine teacher for me on all of these oxalate issues.

I still can't help but feel that the SIBO I was treated for two years ago (even though I was aware of no symptoms) and the gastroenterologist who never said, "Watch out now for eating too many oxalates--at least while your body repopulates itself with oxalobactor formigenes. And btw, take this probiotic which will help your gut achieve this." initiated this disturbing chain of events...

 

[alicec]

What do you do to address the liver?

This usually means supporting phase I and II detox pathways. While I do this it won't help with oxalates which are not processed by those pathways.

The two known strategies for interfering with oxalate synthesising pathways in the liver target the AGT enzyme we have talked about before. They try to overcome oxidative stress (which adversely affects the enzyme) with antioxidant supplementation and increase B6 to help drive the enzyme. The aim is to stop glyoxalate accumulation.

I haven't yet studied in detail the paper you found about glyoxal being a major contributor to oxalate synthesis but I note that oxidative stress was also shown to be a major factor driving this pathway. I will read it again and see if there are any other hints that can be gained.

 

[alicec]

Butyrate enemas? How much butyrate was too much? Isn't butyrate from CB enough?

I didn't observe CB causing oxalate dumping but I never managed to take it for any length of time.

The enema protocol (which was for other purposes but seemed to provoke oxalate dumping) used 5 x 300 mg capsules of butyrate. I don't plan on trying it again in a hurry but if I do decide to do it I'd probably use just 1 capsule.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I didn't observe CB causing oxalate dumping but I never managed to take it for any length of time.

I think it was the butyrate from CB, and the K2 - which according to @Asklipia experience (and mine) appears to get boosted.

What happened when you tried to take it? You probably reported about it (and I probably read nad "liked" it) but I forget.

As soon as I stabilize in my new ,ower ox diet I will retry CB at 1/4 tab to see how I react. At some point I suppose I will benefit from it - I hope it will be milder than supplementing K2.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Trying to imagine how it all applies to other organs than the kidneys:

Review Article
NADPH Oxidase as a Therapeutic Target for Oxalate Induced Injury in Kidneys
Sunil Joshi,1 Ammon B. Peck,2 and Saeed R. Khan1,3
1 Department of Pathology, Immunology & Laboratory Medicine, University of Florida College of Medicine, Gainesville, FL 32610, USA
2 Department of Infectious Diseases & Pathology, University of Florida College of Veterinary Medicine, Gainesville, FL 32610, USA
3 Department of Urology, University of Florida College of Medicine, Gainesville, FL 32610, USA

Correspondence should be addressed to Saeed R. Khan; khan@pathology.ul.edu
Received 9 February 2013; Accepted 14 May 2013
AcademicEditor:KotaV.Ramana
Copyright © 2013 Sunil Joshi et al. his is an open access article distributed under the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited.

A major role of the nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate (NADPH) oxidase family of enzymes is to catalyze the production of superoxides and other reactive oxygen species (ROS).hese ROS, in turn, play a key role as messengers in cell signal transduction and cell cycling, but when they are produced in excess they can lead to oxidative stress (OS). Oxidative stress in the kidneys is now considered a major cause of renal injury and inflammation, giving rise to a variety of pathological disorders. In this review, we discuss the putative role of oxalate in producing oxidative stress via the production of reactive oxygen species by isoforms of NADPH oxidases expressed in diferent cellular locations of the kidneys. Most renal cells produce ROS, and recent data indicate a direct correlation between upregulated gene expressions of NADPH oxidase, ROS, and inlammation. Renal tissue expression of multiple NADPH oxidase isoforms most likely will impact the future use of diferent antioxidants and NADPH oxidase inhibitors to minimize OS and renal tissue injury in hyperoxaluria-induced kidney stone disease.

 

[Kathevans]

I wish I hadn't been so anti-science when I was in high school...

For the moment, besides my low-med ox diet (the dumping, after five months non-stop, has slowed), I have to concentrate on the Bs, which are somehow at the crux of my emotional/sleep/pain issues. I noticed that you, @Gondwanaland posted a great B metabolic pathway chart about a year ago. I'm going to see if I can run it out and stare at it. Thanks!

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Kathevans I am taking the recommended Bs for oxalates right now. Needs some fine tunning though. And guts to up the doses.

 

[Oci]

Hi Everyone, Many thanks for all the information you are sharing. I am working on these ideas! I think I have an oxalate problem but have not been tested for it. Back in February my doctor rx'd 2 weeks of Diflucan 200 mg for brain fog and fatigue - typical symptoms I've had before with Candida and treated with Diflucan and herbals. Candida has been fairly chronic over my adult life. Years ago I took Diflucan for 3-4 months and overcame the high candida I had then.

After finishing the Diflucan in February, I felt better and most of brain fog was gone. Then 4-5 days later I started having irritable bladder and vulvodynia symptoms. Urrrggghhh. I have had this several times before and after a few months it has gone away. I was not feeling well all winter - lots of brain fog and fatigue. I was on a pretty low carb diet to lose some weight.....lost about 10 lbs. I was starting my day with Bulletproof coffee with 2 tbls MCT oil (caprylic acid and capric acid) followed by a couple of eggs a while later. Fairly high protein and high fat...not enough veggies. This fact leads me to believe in some of the findings of Paul Jaminet as in the Perfect Health Diet. I possibly killed off a lot of good bacteria. I am now proceeding in the belief that I need to have some good carbs to feed good bacteria. I also am increasing probiotics, fibre and starting resistant starch. I wonder if I should stop all anti-candidals so that the probiotics can take effect?

I had a Doctor's Data test done early March. Some good news, some bad.
Under Expected/Beneficial Flora there was:
4+ Bacteroides fragilis
3+ Bifidobacterium spp
1+ Escherichia coli
3+ Lactobacillus spp
NG Enterococcus spp I wonder why none? Do I need?

4+ Clostridium spp

Under Commensal (Imbalanced) Flora there was:
3+ Alpha Hemolytic strep
2+ Pseudomonas aeruginosa

Under Dysbiotic Flora:
4+ Enterobacter Cloacae
2+ Candida Albicans. It was recommended that I take Silver and Grapefruit seed extract to treat both. I am doing this with no obvious result after 2 weeks. Am about ready to stop!!! And move to other tactics. I doubt that the candida is still thriving with all that I have been taking. I have had no discharge, just itch leading me to believe more in the oxalate theory.

I am also taking probiotics (VSL#3 and small amount Primal Defense). Also Sacch Boulardi and upping my fiber. I have started with 1 tsp of potato starch 2 days ago. I'm hoping this is a better way to go.

I'm wondering about the 4+ Clostridium reported. It was in the Expected/Beneficial column albeit separated by a space. Does this mean that I should not take CB? I know there are many different forms of Clostridium. Any advice here?

On the DD test under Short Chain Fatty Acids:
Acetate: 66 (range 40 - 75%)
Propionate: 18 (9 - 29)
% Butyrate: 14 (9 - 37)
%Valerate: 2.2 (0.5 - 7)
Butyrate: 1.1 (0.8 - 4.8 mg/ml)
Total SCFAs: 7.6 (4 - 18
So, I definitely could use an increase in SCFAs especially Butyrate!
Also of interest, my SIgA was low at 21.8 (range 51 - 204 mg/ml) I am taking the S Boulardi to raise this. I know it was in normal range on earlier tests.

I would like to do the Great Plains OAT test to determine whether I have a problem with oxalates or not but $$ after doing the Doctor's Data. I plan to do it i a few months.

It seems oxalates are a problem but symptoms have gone away each time after a few months. In between times, I have consumed lots of high oxalate foods including spinach salads, nuts including almonds, chocolate etc. with not obvious signs of distress....and not realizing oxalates could be a problem.

I did read Amy Yasko article on various reasons for oxalate problems and will increase my B vitamins. Need more careful research first as to amounts. I am presently taking 3x All-in-One Multi + Yasko Ultimate B complex (only 1/d so far) + various other supps. I am just starting more Bs.

BTW, here are my Snps...
++: COMT V158M, COMT H62H,VDR Taq, BHMT-02, BHMT-08, +-: MTHFR C677T +/-, MAO-A R297R, ACAT1-02, MTRR A66G, MTRR A664A, CBS A360A,

I'm just remembering now that before the VV/bladder problem started my doctor (new to all this 23andmestuff but learning) added a bunch of supps including a high sulfur/high antioxidant and ATPfuel. It is unknown if this stirred things up or not. I stopped them.

I'd really appreciate any insights or advice you might have! Many many thanks! Oci

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Oci 3 weeks ago I abbandoned everything else I was doing to pursue the oxalate theory. I am taking oxalate degrading probiotics which are helping me sleep very well, and the recommended B vitamins (from the Trying Low Oxalates Yahoo Group). I have stopped the oxalate overload in my diet, and keeping it at medium oxalates. No vegetable soup for me this winter (Southern Hemisphere).

Methylation stopped helping due to additional induced deficiencies (esp. vitamin K which I don't seem to tolerate so one possible way for me is to lower oxalates and try it indirectly via perhaps Clostridium butyricum).

Incidentally I was anemic and the recommended Bs serve this purpose as well, so I am feeling 1000% better than a few weeks ago.

There already is a lot of useful info gathered here in this thread (food and probiotics lists, etc), plus the moderator at the Yahoo Group is very helpful and answers questions quickly.