Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

[Gondwanaland]

What type of boron supplement did you use?

Boron chelated.

A number of research studies have shown that boron increases cognitive performance,[29] and that it can
be an effective addition in the treatment of osteoporosis by promoting healthy bone metabolism, including
efficient use of calcium and magnesium, and proper function of the endocrine system (ovaries, testes and
adrenals). There is also some evidence that parts of the world with low levels of boron in the soil have a
higher percentage of people suffering from arthritis in comparison to regions with higher soil levels of boron.

Boron Synergists: Copper.
Boron Antagonists / Inhibitors: Manganese, calcium.
Low Levels / Therapeutic (Deficiency) Indications for Boron:
Claims of decreased mental alertness in men women and men past the age of 45, increased magnesium
and calcium requirements, decreased bone density, greater risk for prostate cancer.
High levels / Overdose / Toxicity / Negative Side Effects - Symptoms and/or Risk Factors:
Vitamin B6 / Pyridoxine deficiency, Vitamin B2 / Riboflavin-like deficiencies (skeletal abnormalities), diarrhea,
nausea, vomiting, anemia, dermatitis, ovarian / testicular abnormalities, edema, seizures, gastrointestinal
disturbances, fatigue, cold-like symptoms.
Toxicity is somewhat dependent on an individual's kidney functions and may cause boron accumulation in
kidneys, lungs, bone, liver, heart, brain, fatty tissue, parathyroid and reproductive glands.

Source
Apparently it reduces the circulating oxalates by "sending" the calcium (Ca-Ox?) to the bones?

 

[dannybex]

I don't know @Gondwanaland re sending calcium oxalate to the bones. Oxalates interfere with proper bone metabolism...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3593609

And while I've looked at the Acu-cell site off and on for years, the retired doc who runs that has never divulged the type of testing (probably some sort of kiniesology I'm guessing), so I'm not so sure all of his recommendations are accurate.

Nothing personal of course. I say this just as someone who's been to a zillion different docs w/different testing procedures over the last 17 years, and in hindsight have been burned by several of them.

 

[Violeta]

Boron chelated.

Source
Apparently it reduces the circulating oxalates by "sending" the calcium (Ca-Ox?) to the bones?

Maybe. At one point I had been wondering if it's function of increasing ceruloplasmin took care of copper ions, and then it was no longer needed as an antioxidant for copper ions. And then the calcium was no longer needed as an antioxidant for copper, either. Yeah, so maybe then the calcium was free to go to where it should be. ???IDK

 

[Gondwanaland]

And while I've looked at the Acu-cell site off and on for years, the retired doc who runs that has never divulged the type of testing (probably some sort of kiniesology I'm guessing), so I'm not so sure all of his recommendations are accurate.

I am not really interested in how they do the testing since I do not have access to it anyway, but all the descriptions/diagnosis seem to be a perfect match to my symptoms to every supplement I take. One could say that my symptoms ar suggested by reading that site, but then I use it to gauge my husband symptoms as well, and DH does not read that site, and it works perfectly for DH's symptoms as well. I think the descriptios posted there are fruit of a long-time experience of old school medicine and I am not surprised to learn that

the retired doc who runs that

By old school medicine I mean that kind of diagnosis by symptoms and not lab tests, that the dr with long clinical experience would get you a physical examination and look at your fingernails and know if you are zinc/calcium deficient etc. Like old school homeopaths as well. But this seems to be a long time lost art, now that the labs must make their bucks as well.

 

[Violeta]

I don't know @Gondwanaland re sending calcium oxalate to the bones. Oxalates interfere with proper bone metabolism...

Danny, I think what Gondwanaland meant is that it removes the calcium from the calcium oxalate and lets it go into the bones.

 

[Violeta]

Boron chelated.

I've read that ionic boron is much better than chelated. So your parathyroid started to actually hurt? Yeah, that would make me stop taking it. But I wonder why?

 

[Violeta]

I just remembered that when I used to read at the Yahoo Low Oxalate forum, there was a lady who had a different theory from Susan Owens, the main proponent of low oxalate diet fame. The other lady theorized that K2 would help with the problem, along with vitamins a and d, phosphorus. She went on to expand and perfect her protocol and has been honored to speak at an Autism One event. Her name is Catherine Tamaro, there are videos of her online. I remembered this because strangely enough a facebook friend just messaged me today to tell me something that Susan Owens is talking about, and also told me that Susan Owens now has MS.

The oxalate issue is a good clue that one needs to find a cause, not just remove oxalates from the diet.

PS: I don't know the cause for the sensitivity or storage. But someone recently said that if they take vitamin d and not k2 along with it they get kidney stones. He didn't say if they were calcium oxalate stones or not, I'll see if I can find out.

 

[alicec]

@alice what a bout drinking 1/2 squeezed lemon in luke warm water (to knock off vit C) in the morning? My parents have been drinking it for several months now and swear by it. Of course right now I can't handle anything acidic like that due to my caker sore.

Lots of people seem to find this helpful. I can't see any problem with it if you can tolerate it.

 

[alicec]

I just remembered that when I used to read at the Yahoo Low Oxalate forum, there was a lady who had a different theory from Susan Owens, the main proponent of low oxalate diet fame. The other lady theorized that K2 would help with the problem, along with vitamins a and d, phosphorus

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...icum-a-game-changer.37324/page-24#post-602665see

 

[Gondwanaland]

The oxalate issue is a good clue that one needs to find a cause, not just remove oxalates from the diet.

I am suspecting pollution (car exhaust) for DH and myself.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I am having trouble understanding things today... Why do we need C. butyricum and then need O. formigenes?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Another question... Since plain vegetables gave me so much pain lately, I might as well eat gluten again, it would make no difference pain-wise, since I have never felt worse than like a couple of weeks ago anyway.

After taking a vit A capsule, the pain started subsiding and disappeared. I am pain-free for some days now. I am considering to join my husband in pizza for dinner at least 1x monthly then take vit A and ox-degrading probx + pancreatic enzymes...

Does anyone here eat gluten?

 

[alicec]

O. formigenes is the premier oxalate digesting bacterium in the gut. Being able to replenish it might make a huge difference to our ability to tolerate oxalate-containing food. So far there is no easily accessible supplemental source (yes there are the tantalising products found by @Asklipia but so far no one has managed to buy them) so the next best option is the L. acidophilus and B. lactis strains discussed above.

Whether or not C. butyricum plays any role here is unknown though the intrepid @Asklipia found reference to a patent application mentioning Clostridium as part of a probiotic solution for excess oxalate. Which clostridium is unknown.

There are other reasons to take C. butyricum, eg for butyrate production.

 

[alicec]

Does anyone here eat gluten

I can eat gluten (at least as a one off) but usually don't. Gluten causes the tight junctions of the gut epithelium to open in everyone, not just celiacs (it is just much worse for the celiacs) so I don't think it's a great idea for people with gut problems. An occasional indulgence if tolerated is probably ok.

 

[out2lunch]

View attachment 11404

Probiotics containing L. acidophilus are definitely off my list ("Howdy, H2S!"), so nix to the O. formigenes supplements for now.

That being said, I've recently embarked on a probiotic experiment involving several different brands in an effort to increase my bifido gut army. GI Effects testing in March identified modest O. formigenes and bifido levels, even though I was taking GutPRO Infant every day, along with Jarrow Ideal Bowel Support (L. plantarum 299v).

While my gut made great strides in healing with these two products, based on changes from the previous Genova fecal testing 18 months earlier, my bifido army was still on the wimpy side. And I'm confident my genetics is responsible for the wimpy levels of bifido, with three sets homozygous SNPs for FUT2:

http://bodyecology.com/articles/can-genetics-explain-an-unhealthy-gut

I've since ditched the GutPRO Infant (decent product but the company has ticked me off with their new shipping policy) and replaced it with the following probiotics that I've been taking with the Jarrow 299v. Many of the strains I'm taking are listed in Gondwanaland's oxalate-degrading bacteria list:

Jarrow Bifidus Balance: http://www.jarrow.com/product/118/Bifidus_Balance_+_FOS
Jarrow Baby's Jarro-Dophilus Drops: http://www.jarrow.com/product/624/Baby's_Jarro-Dophilus_Drops
Align Probiotic (B. infantis 35624)
Custom Probiotics D-Lactate Free

I've been trying to emphasize replacement of strains like B. infantis and animalis lactis because of their importance in early life. I just know in my gut (sorry, couldn't resist) that my current health problems if not all of my health problems since birth can be traced back to the indiscriminate long-term use of broad-spetrum antibiotics during the first six years of my life, which turned my nicely diverse gut microbiome into the Sahara.

Anyone else experience the "factory farm infancy" like I did, with inordinate amounts of antibiotics?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Probiotics containing L. acidophilus are definitely off my list ("Howdy, H2S!")

I know what you mean by that, and I am so relieved that taking C. butyricum enabled me to tolerate acidophilus...

Yesterday my father passed a kidney stone (my mom had multiple ones about 15 yrs ago). My father is taking meds for lowering uric acid for 10 yrs, so obviously this stone from yesterday was oxalate...

So both my parents will start on ox-degrading probx soon

 

[out2lunch]

I know what you mean by that, and I am so relieved that taking C. butyricum enabled me to tolerate acidophilus...

Yesterday my father passed a kidney stone (my mom had multiple ones about 15 yrs ago). My father is taking meds for lowering uric acid for 10 yrs, so obviously this stone from yesterday was oxalate...

So both my parents will start on ox-degrading probx soon

I'm glad to hear about the CB. I haven't received my shipment yet, but I know it will also be a game changer for me.

As for kidney stones, I've been fortunate. I've had a couple in my life, and was lucky enough to capture one for analysis (CA-OX, of course! ). But in terms of being at risk for stones, apparently I'm not. And I'm guessing that's mostly genetics.

What I suspect, however, is that my so-called 'mild' oxalate problem isn't as mild as the OAT would suggest, and that oxalate deposition in my bones is at the heart of my lifelong progressive low bone density. Which has recently gone from osteopenia to osteoporosis, to the bewilderment of my bone endo specialist.

Every single bone metabolic test I've taken over the past decade has been excellent. Several bone endo docs I've seen all scratch their heads, unable to figure out why I can't get my density to increase or at least stop decreasing. But I suspect that my excess oxalates have been depositing mostly into bone tissue instead of kidney, for whatever reason, that has lead to my crappy density. :thumbdown:

 

[Gondwanaland]

Yesterday I took the full course of my new treatment for oxalates and anemia

1) divided in 2 doses (breakfast and lunch)
Vit B1 Thiamine HCl 20mg
Vit B2 Riboflavin 4mg
Vit B5 Calcium Pantothenate 10mg
Vit B6 P-5-P 20mg
Choline Bit 30mg
CoQ10 20mg
Se chelated 80mcg
Zn chelated 8mg
Cu chelated 500mcg
Mn chelated 300mcg

2)
L. acidophilus 0.4 Bi
L. casei 0.5 Bi (hoping that its histamines make my bowels move)
L. lactis 0.5 Bi
L. rhamnosus 1 Bi

I also have Vit B7 Biotin 300mcg capsules to take less frequently.

During the night i had joint pain (swollen knees and ankles) and this morning woke up with the worst itching in the calves (used to have this a lot when I still ate gluten) and edema in the calves (B1?).

What can I do to relieve the dumping discomfort? I think tonight I will take another dose of vit A...

I will post this same question at the Oxalate Yahoo group...

 

[Ema]

It was recently suggested that I might want to have a urinary oxalate test to see if high oxalates were possibly contributing to muscle pain. I've been doing some research to see if I want to spend the money on this kind of testing and have some questions. I'd appreciate any input!

First of all, is there any scientific proof that the amount of oxalate excreted in the urine has any bearing or relationship to the amount of oxalate stored in the tissues of the body?

It would actually seem to me that a high level of urinary oxalates would mean that fewer oxalates were being stored by the body tissues rather than the other way around.

Also, the oxalate level seems to have a lot of variability. I read that 80% of the urinary oxalate level is due to the diet. Is testing at all valuable when it can't be reproduced?

If I eat a strawberry and spinach salad one day in the summer and test it stands to reason based on the data that I will have a high oxalate level in my urine vs eating a high protein diet in the winter. But has the level of oxalates in my muscle tissues actually changed at all between those two scenarios even though my urinary values would be wildly divergent?

Also, I was listening to a podcast by the director of the Great Smokies Lab and he said they are working on genetic testing for oxalate susceptibility. Any idea what these SNPs might be?

 

[alicec]

It was recently suggested that I might want to have a urinary oxalate test to see if high oxalates were possibly contributing to muscle pain.

A one off urinary oxalate test may or may not be useful. If it were quite low or quite high then you would know either that you did or did not have some kind of problem. What that problem might be would require further investigation.

An OAT test from Great Plains Laboratory might be more useful. It measures glyoxalate and glycerate as well as oxalate. Together these might give some insight into endogenous oxalate production which may well be making the greatest contribution of all. In addition other markers for things like B6, B1 and biotin dependant metabolism as well as antioxidant status might help to round out a picture of derangement of metabolism which is likely to be associated with endogenous oxalate production.

Here is some of the info they provide about the test.http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/home/eng/oxalates.asp

First of all, is there any scientific proof that the amount of oxalate excreted in the urine has any bearing or relationship to the amount of oxalate stored in the tissues of the body?

It would actually seem to me that a high level of urinary oxalates would mean that fewer oxalates were being stored by the body tissues rather than the other way around.

The situation is far more complex than this and many things contribute to oxalate appearing in urine. Here's one paper that looks at some of it . http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2518810/ The contribution from dumping of oxalate from storage is probably the least understood aspect of it.

Also, the oxalate level seems to have a lot of variability. I read that 80% of the urinary oxalate level is due to the diet. Is testing at all valuable when it can't be reproduced?

That figure sounds wildly exaggerated. As the paper above canvases, studies of dietary contribution estimate 10-40% with larger studies, such as that one, tending much more to the lower end. In other words there is certainly some variation caused by diet but it is not great.

You might just decide to try some of the recommendations of the low-oxalate group and see if it makes any difference to the muscle pain - see http://www.lowoxalate.info/ and the associated Yahoo Group, trying low oxalates. The recommendations include a low-med oxalate diet, probiotics such as VSL-3 to help digest oxalate and encourage dumping of oxalate stores, attention to leaky gut since this can be a major contributer, calcium or magnesium salts before meals to absorb dietary oxalates, gradual increase in B6 consumption, gradual increase in antioxidant intake. If these two latter interventions provoke oxalate dumping this is a very good indication that you have oxalate issues.

The GPL OAT might then give some insight into how serious a problem this could be, but there is no guarantee. There is just too much that is not understood about the whole thing.