Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

[Gondwanaland]

@aaron_c has been researching vitamin A and posted interesting info here. Yesterday before bedtime I took one capsule of 10,000iu vit A and slept sooooo well and neither my bladder or my lungs woke me up, not even once ( @whodathunkit ).

I had this same experience last year but was staying away from vit A b/c it increased my hair loss. But Aaron posted a study that gives a good explanation for that (increased mineral needs). So this morning I will take minerals with my breakfast.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Another Aaron's very interesting bit:

You mentioned that C. butyricum is causing pain. Are you thinking this is coming from butyrate upregulating vitamin D receptors or is it something else?

So THIS could be causing pain... @Sidereal ?

 

[Asklipia]

Still looking for Oxalobacter formigenes.
I had no luck with the Indian websites as my bank refuses to pay and Western Union too!

I see that if I were a laboratory I could buy it in bulk at a reasonable price
I post here a discussion about whether it is obtainable from cabbage leaves http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23266

 

[Gondwanaland]

Extremely interesting discussion, thanks for posting that, @Asklipia

I wil paste the 1st post here:

Post subject:A way to break down oxalates without vsl #3

This is from the lady that runs vitamin k group:

"make...carrot-apple-cabbage juice about twice a week. Oxalobacter formigenes,
the bacteria that breaks down oxalate the best, lives on cabbage and by juicing
cabbage leaves you can implant it into [the] colon. It's much better at
degrading oxalate than VSL#3 is. The oral Epsom salts flushes oxalate out of
the cells; the body deposits it into the intestines for disposal; and the
cabbage bacteria break it down. It's a neat, clean solution to the oxalate
issue – there's absolutely no need whatsoever to go on a low-oxalate diet."
"For four of us I juice 16 carrots, 4 apples, and 1/2 to 1 head cabbage
depending on its size. Do this twice a week, and then on 1 or 2 other days make
the juice but without the cabbage. For most kids the Oxalobacter formigenes
should implant after 2 or 3 rounds, but for kids with very bad dysbiosis it may
take repeated juicing to get the Oxalobacter to implant.
"We still eat a lot of VSL#3 yogurt (because I love goat milk yogurt) but you
don't need to use VSL#3 as a supplement for oxalate control."

She said it has to be unfermented as the acidity is a problem for the oxalabacter species. FYI.

I am very surprised about that formula since an increase in carrot intake is clearly linked to my worsening, and I just happen to be out of carrots now

 

[Gondwanaland]

This is why silica helps since it chelates aluminum:

Make sure your body is absorbing calcium. If you have lead or aluminum, you will not absorb calcium or magnesium properly.

My hair aluminum was extremely high, and plasma aluminum top of the range (conexion with vaccines/autism?)

Aluminum reference ranges provided by laboratories are widely divergent, may not represent "normal" ranges of a healthy population, especially children, and thus it is difficult to interpret serum or urine aluminum ranges clinically.

 

[Sidereal]

Another Aaron's very interesting bit:

You mentioned that C. butyricum is causing pain. Are you thinking this is coming from butyrate upregulating vitamin D receptors or is it something else?

So THIS could be causing pain... @Sidereal ?

Interesting. Any thoughts on butyrate and VDR, @nandixon? Seems safer than using an ARB to achieve the same thing.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Interesting. Any thoughts on butyrate and VDR, @nandixon? Seems safer than using an ARB to achieve the same thing.

My vit D 25OH in blood went up after taking pre and probiotics.

 

[Sidereal]

My vit D 25OH in blood went up after taking pre and probiotics.

Not surprised to hear this at all!

 

[Sidereal]

Guys, the glycine cleavage system produces folate, ammonia and acid:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3666648/

Glycine + H4folate + NAD+ ⇄ 5,10−methylene−H4folate + CO2 + NH3 + NADH + H+

The glycine cleavage system is composed of four proteins: three enzymes and a carrier protein. 8)–10) In animals, the system is loosely bound to the mitochondrial inner membrane.11) The enzymes are i) P-protein (a pyridoxal phosphate-containing protein) or glycine dehydrogenase (decarboxylating) (EC1.4.4.2), ii) T-protein or aminomethyl-transferase (EC2.1.2.10), and iii) L-protein or dihydrolipoamide dehydrogenase (EC1.8.1.4). The carrier protein is called H-protein (a lipoic acid-containing protein).

Alpha lipoic acid!

 

[Gondwanaland]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3666648/

Nonketotic hyperglycinemia, a congenital metabolic disorder in human infants, results from defective glycine cleavage activity.

I assume the ketotic hyperglycinemia occurs by lowcarbing?

 

[Sidereal]

I assume the ketotic hyperglycinemia occurs by lowcarbing?

I doubt it. The other thing is fatal in infancy.

 

[Asklipia]

I think these is another side to oxalate dumping. Once we achive this dumping, for whatever reason, it is not only the oxalate part of the crystals which is released. The calcium we can make use of, but what about the nasties hidden in the crystals? It seems that they are nests of bad bacteria, and the reason why we have so many may be due to the presence of pathogens.
This would explain why it would be a good idea to go slow on the dumping.

Bacteria can promote calcium oxalate crystal growth and aggregation
In summary, intact viable E. coli, K. pneumoniae, S. aureus, and S. pneumoniae had significant promoting effects on CaOx crystal growth and aggregation. This functional evidence supported the hypothesis that various types of bacteria can induce or aggravate metabolic stone disease, particularly the CaOx type.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Bacteria can promote calcium oxalate crystal growth and aggregation
In summary, intact viable E. coli, K. pneumoniae, S. aureus, and S. pneumoniae had significant promoting effects on CaOx crystal growth and aggregation. This functional evidence supported the hypothesis that various types of bacteria can induce or aggravate metabolic stone disease, particularly the CaOx type.

I have been wondering whether DH and I should take abx for our coughing dump

 

[dannybex]

The thyroid is a known site of oxalate accumulation see http://www.lowoxalate.info/research.html and rashes associated with oxalate dumping via the skin are very common (often very itchy and spectacular).

Could that itching possibly include deep in the ear canals? I've had that off and on for years, but it's been unbelievably bad in the last 4-5 days. Plus the ears themselves are kind of painful, although one is better today.

 

[picante]

I found a useful tool via this site, which tells you about an herb database that you can search:
http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/highchem.html

So I searched "oxalic acid" first, then "oxalate". Top of the list is lambsquarter, collard greens, and a couple kinds of kale.

 

[dannybex]

Extremely interesting discussion, thanks for posting that, @Asklipia

I wil paste the 1st post here:

I am very surprised about that formula since an increase in carrot intake is clearly linked to my worsening, and I just happen to be out of carrots now

Unfortunately, it may not be true, at least according to Susan Owens:

http://www.remedyspot.com/content/t...ot-a-source-of-oxalobacter-formigenesand-why/

"The only known natural habitats for the oxalate-degrading bacterium,
Oxalobacter formigenes, are anaerobic portions of the gastrointestinal
tract (rumen, or cecum and colon) of humans and various herbivores and
also anaerobic sediments of aquatic systems. O. formigenes is a strict
anaerobe. This means that it will not survive for long and will not grow
on plant or soil surfaces exposed to air."

 

[dannybex]

This is why silica helps since it chelates aluminum:

Did you see this study?

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/71/4/944.full

Wondering if you know what type of silica is in that product you linked to yesterday?

 

[Gondwanaland]

@dannybex I have no idea, Danny

EDIT-- there is always a catch...

 

[Gondwanaland]

I found a useful tool via this site, which tells you about an herb database that you can search:
http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/highchem.html

So I searched "oxalic acid" first, then "oxalate". Top of the list is lambsquarter, collard greens, and a couple kinds of kale.

Thanks, picante!
I was dismayed when I realized that poppy seeds, like any other seed obviously, are hi-ox
I wonder what's got into me a few weeks ago that made me crave okra and star fruit Perhaps a good absorbable mucilage in the 1st and vit C in the 2nd?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Wisdom bits:

Although green, leafy vegetables contain significant amounts of Vitamin K, the high oxalic acid content in Swiss chard, spinach, beets / beet greens, parsley, and rhubarb not only reduces the benefits of flavonoids, but also decreases calcium absorption by forming insoluble calcium oxalate salts, and as a result promotes vascular degeneration and increases the risk of bleeding in prone individuals.

(vascular injury due to hi-ox in circulation is what I think caused my blood clots in 2011)

One could consider another Type O individual who has been enjoying and tolerating a high protein / red meat diet, and then consumes an E. coli-contaminated hamburger, ending up with kidney damage. Obviously, his blood type is still Type O, but unless he starts to follow "Blood Type A" dietary recommendations now (a low purine diet and more oxalate-free vegetables), he may soon encounter his first gout attack, or worse, he could be soon on dialysis.

(about how dangerous the "Eat right for your blood type" philosophy can be)

Heme Iron from meat is about 10 times more absorbable [17] than iron from all plant / vegetable sources. Many vegans have trouble obtaining sufficient iron from the diet alone since phytates present in whole grains and oxalates found in certain vegetables may bind to some of the iron and reduce absorption.

... with zinc being water-soluble, canning or cooking in water can deplete the amounts of zinc in food, and less zinc is also absorbed when it is bound with phytates or oxalates found in grains and vegetables...

Vitamin K Antagonists:
Vitamin A, Vitamin E, mineral oil, oxalates, alcohol, Coenzyme Q10, blood thinners / anticoagulants (coumadin), Antibiotics - by killing intestinal bacteria.