Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

[Gondwanaland]

The explanation of the chart I posted before is very enlightening:

http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2015/green0115.html

I think it explains PEM, no?

 

[alicec]

Thank you @Asklipia for starting this thread. My duties are finally over and I can get back to thinking about interesting things. I am pleased to note that the gain of PEM reduction which I have made over the past 6 months or so seems to be holding. Despite really pushing myself at times I have just been a bit tired today - no crash. And even better, my improved alcohol tolerance is continuing. Wine is one of life's great pleasures but I was worried I had really gone too far last night. Today though just a little tiredness.

Anyhow I have attached a list I made for myself of the oxalate content of various foods. It is not meant to be exhaustive - just foods I might want to eat. I didn't list actual content for all foods, but tried to illustrate things like how cooking method can make a difference. I simplified the categories also, aiming for a quick guide that would result in a medium oxalate diet without fussing too much.

As noted above, cooking method can affect soluble oxalate content. Boiling is not a method I prefer but it can make a big difference so now I use it sometimes. Fermentation doesn't seem to make much difference.

Variety can make a big difference and I have listed several examples of this - see particularly legumes.

Finally since greens seem to be a big problem area I will just list again some good choices - all types lettuce, rocket (arugula), basil, coriander (cilantro), watercress, all kinds of cabbage, bok choy, turnip and mustard greens, cavallo nero and purple kale.

While bok choy is the only chinese green tested, I think any of them are likely to be safe since they are of the cabbage family which seems to be universally low. I regularly eat choi sum, gao choi and chinese broccoli and have never had any problems with them.

 

[alicec]

There seems to be another product from FOURRTS, another Indian company, with the same content, called OXALOBACT, in capsule and tablet form. Not to be confused with OXABACT, a product of the Swedish OxThera.
This OXALOBACT seems more widely distributed and some studies have been done using it.

I found this http://omsi.in/shop/oxalobact-capsules-10-per-strip/ and was in the process of ordering when I discovered the postage charges. The flat rate charge for postage out of India (up to 500 g) is 4,000 rupees.

I did expect to pay hefty postage but this seems like a lot. Will look a bit further and maybe have some email correspondence with this Indian online pharmacy. Maybe they will be amenable to change.

 

[Asklipia]

I found this http://omsi.in/shop/oxalobact-capsules-10-per-strip/ and was in the process of ordering when I discovered the postage charges. The flat rate charge for postage out of India (up to 500 g) is 4,000 rupees.

I did expect to pay hefty postage but this seems like a lot. Will look a bit further and maybe have some email correspondence with this Indian online pharmacy. Maybe they will be amenable to change.

I did not find any other place yet. The postage is expensive but on the other hand the price of the actual product is very low. I notice that the INR 4000 is for DHL shipping. Postal is INR 2000. I would advise against DHL because where I am it has to go through customs, and customs like their pound of flesh. On the other hand I never had a problem with regular postal services from India. Small parcels are despised here as not worth opening! Maybe the same in Australia?

 

[alicec]

View attachment 11404

Please note that all probiotics on this list are not equal. @Gondwanaland has already kindly reposted the lists of probiotics tested for oxalate digestion which I posted on the C. butyricum thread. There are a few in the table that were not tested but almost all were.

Of them, L. acidophilus NCFM and LA-14 and B. lactis BL-07 are the standouts. The rest are mostly around 10-15% as good, some less, a couple a little more.

I have taken VSL 3 for too long so am going to retry Theralac, which contains L. acidophilus LA-14 and B.lactis BL-07 plus a couple of the lesser digesting strains. Plus I'll seek out some of the O.formigenes types which @Asklipia found.

 

[Asklipia]

I am pleased to note that the gain of PEM reduction which I have made over the past 6 months or so seems to be holding. Despite really pushing myself at times I have just been a bit tired today - no crash. And even better, my improved alcohol tolerance is continuing. Wine is one of life's great pleasures but I was worried I had really gone too far last night. Today though just a little tiredness.

This is great. Same for us, we are never tired ever now. Not even normally tired! Blazing through all difficulties and smoothing the problems with vodka. Our tolerance to alcohol is incredible, and I am sure this is thanks to the C. butyricum. The liver is happy.
We love wine too but are extremely careful there. Unless we can get real wine made from bacteria and sold not in a bottle, we avoid it. To bottle wine they have to add preservatives and that will kill our expensively acquired bacteria!
Most wine now is made with commercial yeasts. The nootropic effect of this is mainly from the yeasts, not from the alcohol content.
Wine made with bacteria on the other hand, that is wine made from grapes trampled by the feet of preferably naked ladies (only the bottom part is naked, the top remains decent no juggling of boobs, is what is needed and what we get. If we do not get we avoid wine altogether. This ladies feet wine is not available easily also because it is not popular, not because the buyers know how it is made, but because it will make most consumers violently sick, just as we get sick from a big dose of new probiotics. And it will change your mind, in another way.
Same problem with bread really, bread made with yeasts is not bread made with bacteria.

You will notice that at Mass we share the bacteria of the wine, a piece of bread WITHOUT YEAST, dip our hands in the consacrated water full of everybody's bacteria, to end up sharing the same mind. This is what communion is about.

Anyhow I have attached a list I made for myself of the oxalate content of various foods. It is not meant to be exhaustive - just foods I might want to eat. I didn't list actual content for all foods, but tried to illustrate things like how cooking method can make a difference. I simplified the categories also, aiming for a quick guide that would result in a medium oxalate diet without fussing too much.

Thanks a lot for this!!!!!

 

[alicec]

My vision definitely gets even more blurry when I am dumping like right now.

The eye is a known site for deposition of fine oxalate crystals and blurred vision is commonly associated with oxalate dumping - also sharp stabbing pains in the eye.

 

[alicec]

I have posted this elsewhere but since this thread is trying to gather information together I'll post it here also.

This is a summary I did of the information scattered on the low-ox website and in files on the yahoo website.

 

[alicec]

Further to gathering info together in one place, I'll just note the posts I made about oxalates in the C. butyricum thread. They relate mainly to the diagram above posted by @Gondwanaland.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...icum-a-game-changer.37324/page-22#post-601859

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...icum-a-game-changer.37324/page-23#post-602199

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...icum-a-game-changer.37324/page-23#post-602280

 

[Asklipia]

@alicec I see your energy is UP!

 

[alicec]

@alicec I see your energy is UP!

Well I am quite tired today but am keen to get back in to the stimulating thoughts which have been provoked by this and the C. butyric thread lately.

 

[dannybex]

It's a pity none of those products have just Oxalobacter for those who cannot tolerate Lactobacilli. Acidophilus in particular causes hell for me.

Me too. It's my understanding that it increases histamine, so that might be an explanation for some. With the millions suffering from kidney stones waiting for relief, no doubt Oxalobacter won't be approved by the FDA in the US for several more years, as an overpriced prescription drug.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Now I don't need to be off-topic anymore when I talk about oxalates

Why do you think that oxalates trigger eczema and acid reflux? Do you mean in your case, or in general?

I don't have substantial references to link right now, but I have been looking back to all my past and present symptoms thru the oxalate lens, and many unexplained reactions seem to make sense as oxalate dump or overload.

My mother had kidney stones and recently started eating gluten free for most of the time. When she eats gluten she gets unbearable reflux, yet she keeps cheating Oxalates are sharp and hurt! You need a healthy liver and a healthy gut to process them.

My sister also has Hashi's like me and has a small calcified nodule on her thyroid. Calcifications are usually from Ca-Ox. I have been looking for the underlying cause of my Hashi's since 2013 and I think the oxalate deposition in the thyroid tissue makes a lot of sense.

I used to have frequent rashes (dump) dating back to when I lived in Italy from 1994-1995 and ate pizza 5x weekly (oxalate overload). Now I get rashes when I take supplements that are supposed to help with oxalate detoxification (thiamine for instance).

Going gluten free helps a lot with the oxalate overload, but one can easily have an ox build up from other foods that are high in oxalates next to grains and seeds (tubers, certain leafy greens, juicing!). And that is something that the Autoimmune Protocol overlooks.

Unfortunately, because it is unpratical, food rotation is the safest approach for those like us that have had our burden of abx and diverse prescription meds that promoted extinction among our now treasured microbiota.

 

[Gondwanaland]

William Shaw is a PhD Biochemist who has been looking into oxalates and is the head at the Great Plains Labs. I found that they have an interesting free webinar library at their site about various topics (incl methylation). I haven't checked it out yet though.

 

[Sidereal]

With the millions suffering from kidney stones waiting for relief, no doubt Oxalobacter won't be approved by the FDA in the US for several more years, as an overpriced prescription drug.

Yes, a Swedish pharma company is developing a product. No doubt it will cost 100x more than what our friends in India are charging.

 

[dannybex]

I don't know if any of these have been posted here or on other threads, but if not, they might be helpful:

In vitro, lysine dissolves oxalates:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022024899008830

A particular strain of b. bifidum degrades oxalates:

http://www.biocyc.org/BBIF702459/NEW-IMAGE?object=Oxalate-Degradation

Thiamine deficiency increases glyoxalate formation (in rats anyway):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3426152

Vitamin A deficiency and oxalates:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2097329

And again in rats, EPA and lipoic acid reduced (and reversed) damage from oxalates:

file:///Users/Dan/Downloads/Lipoic%20acid.htm (edit: not sure why that link won't work)

 

[dannybex]

Question: Glycine is used to detox salicylates. I have been taking it every once in awhile lately, and my lower back has been killing me -- worse and worse the last 4-5 days. Also had some sweet potatoes the other night.

A connection? If so, then how does one detox sals? Or could it be that I'm not getting enough b6 (which I can only handle if I take 3-4 times as much b2 as b6)?

Thanks.

p.s. @Gondwanaland -- what form of silica are you taking?

 

[Sidereal]

Glycine, collagen, etc. destroys me. I don't think it has anything to do with "detox".

 

[dannybex]

Glycine, collagen, etc. destroys me. I don't think it has anything to do with "detox".

I understand. I was just referencing that glycine is used to detoxify salicylates, not oxalates or other compounds.

But it could cause problems -- as could collagen/proline if one has oxalate issues (and/or histamine issues). Glycine is supposed to be 'safe' for histamine problems, but not bone broth or collagen related supps.

 

[Sidereal]

@Gondwanaland, according to your diagram, arabinose feeds into oxalate production. Could this perhaps account for some of the bad reactions to psyllium (aka arabinoxylose) and larch arabinogalactan?