Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

[adreno]

I understand. I was referring to your worsening back pain on glycine. I don't understand it myself but @adreno was telling me recently that glycine is excitatory in the spinal cord and inhibitory in the brain. It's a possible explanation for your symptom.

Just to clarify; from wikipedia:

The glycine receptor, or GlyR, is the receptor for the amino acid neurotransmitter glycine. GlyR is an ionotropic receptor that produces its effects through chloride current. It is one of the most widely distributed inhibitory receptors in the central nervous system and has important roles in a variety of physiological processes, especially in mediating inhibitory neurotransmission in the spinal cord and brainstem.[1]

The receptor can be activated by a range of simple amino acids including glycine, β-alanine and taurine, and can be selectively blocked by the high-affinity competitive antagonist strychnine.[2] Caffeine is a competitive antagonist of GlyR.[3]

Note above that beta-alanine can also activate GlyRs, perhaps this could explain the tingling people report. I doubt it has anything to do with oxalate.

Besides this, glycine also functions as a co-agonist at NMDARs.

 

[Sidereal]

Just to clarify; from wikipedia:



Note above that beta-alanine can also activate GlyRs, perhaps this could explain the tingling people report. I doubt it has anything to do with oxalate.

Besides this, glycine also functions as a co-agonist at NMDARs.

Nice find re: beta alanine, adreno. I bought this but I'm not going to take it in light of this information.

Almost all of the supplements recommended for the oxalate problem are contraindicated in ME/CFS in my opinion.

 

[Gondwanaland]

file:///Users/Dan/Downloads/Lipoic%20acid.htm (edit: not sure why that link won't work)

It doesn't work b/c the file isn't on line (it appears to be a link from your OS explorer)
Those are great links, Danny, thanks!

If so, then how does one detox sals? Or could it be that I'm not getting enough b6 (which I can only handle if I take 3-4 times as much b2 as b6)?

I could only do it last year with magnesium oxide orally and sodium bicarbonate baths. B6 will increase your need for Mag

what form of silica are you taking?

I take locally compounded with potato starch as a filler (50mg 2x weekly). But this one has been on my wish list for a long time. If you have acces to VOlvic or Fiji water then there will be no need for supplement.

Glycine, collagen, etc. destroys me. I don't think it has anything to do with "detox".

In this past week when delving into Ox files I found that glycine feeds oxalate endogenous conversion. Perhaps @alicec can explain it. Although you can see in the chart that it is a two-way path, and it is my impression that if we supplement glycine we will favor the endogenous oxalaate generation.

arabinose feeds into oxalate production. Could this perhaps account for some of the bad reactions to psyllium (aka arabinoxylose) and larch arabinogalactan?

Same as above, and the pain I get from psyllium and LAG is definetly oxalates (I use to think it was urate, but I have just had a blood test and serum uric acid was in my usual level).

 

[Sidereal]

Ok so it's starting to look like we have to figure out this oxalate issue in order to be able to progress with gut protocols. Piece of cake.

 

[Sidereal]

@dannybex, I misremembered adreno's remarks and got that backwards. Glycine is inhibitory in the spinal cord. Most people find it calming/sedating in general but some with ME get awful excitation/pain from it, perhaps due to its agonism of the glycine site on the NMDA receptor. I used to think this was my problem until I tried D-serine (which is a more potent agonist of the NMDAR glycine site than glycine itself) and I do well with it so it seems to be something unique to glycine that causes the problem.

 

[dannybex]

I hope we can figure it out too @Sidereal.

This is all so depressing, but not because of anyone's comments -- just the possibility that although I looked into oxalates -- even got the testing 2 years ago -- I couldn't afford a consultation, so put if off, kind of forgot about it, and moved on to other possibilities, the latest being histamine intolerance, because my eyes, sinuses, etc., have been in a really bad (allergy-like) state since almost a year ago now. I can't tolerate any of the fermented foods and it seems like higher histamine foods make things worse. I was up ALL night about four nights back after trying salmon for the first time in six weeks. (Histamine regulates the sleep-wake cycle and salmon is high in histamine.)

Anyway, also the fact that there is so much conflicting info and studies out there is very frustrating. I posted a study above that suggested lysine may help dissolve (or bind) to them (Owens talks about it here, but then another study suggests the opposite!

Then there's the food lists -- some lists have a certain food as high, while others have the exact same food as low.

Owens says vitamin C is bad, yet Paul Jaminet says she's wrong (see comments here). I haven't taken that much (but need it desperately) because I always had problems with it (tingling -- maybe oxalate related???), but have tried some from time to time lately because I have definite sub-clinical scurvy. I did see studies where 1 or 2 grams caused problems, but no mention of the 250 mg limit that Owens talks about.

Jaminet recovered from an MS-like illness, and Owens was diagnosed with MS late last year. So who to believe?

 

[Sidereal]

FWIW, any amount of supplemental vitamin C gives me kidney pain. If you have stones and other oxalate issues, taking C is madness IMO. I have many deficiencies but my body won't allow me to rectify them. I am in the Vegas camp with regard to nutrient deficiencies - they seem purposeful, as if they are protecting us from worse things happening.

 

[dannybex]

Sorry for venting.

I guess I can say that the main thing I've done differently in the last 2 weeks or so is to take glycine -- not every day -- but definitely yesterday and the day before -- a decent spoonful in water, which probably amounts to about 4 grams.

That probably, hopefully, explains the increasing hip and lower back pain that has moved around for the last week or so, and got so bad that I had to take ibuprofen both yesterday and the day before just to function, something I usually avoid like the plague.

Deeeeeep breath.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I have a recurrent drilling pain in the coccyx that I have always linked to gluten contamination/cross-reactivity, which is nothing else than oxalate overload.

@dannybex do you tolerate leafy greens for vit C intake? I am sticking to @alicec 's list and trust that rockett/arugula is low-ox, b/c I eat it often, plus several types of lettuce (esp. Romaine) and watercress which is said to be the highest in vit C content.

 

[dannybex]

I haven't eaten much raw food as I've been told by so many that it's harder to digest for someone with poor digestion, but will definitely be making some changes. My lower back pain is "better" right at the moment, so hopefully that will continue.

(I also had been taking a little xylitol in water to rinse my teeth off and on, and earlier remembered that it has an oxalate connection as well. Plus, yesterday or certainly the day before I took some hyaluronic acid/biocell collagen II supps -- things I had stopped 2-3 months ago due to the histamine issue, and of course the collagen in them may have made things worse as well.)

@Asklipia -- do I recall correctly that a lot of your oxalate issues diminished by taking K2 (mk-4)? Is there anything else that you felt helped?

Also, does anyone know if oxalates in general can cause overall dehydration?

Anyway, sorry again to kind of sidetrack this thread. I do have some b infantis, so will go with that for now.

 

[Asklipia]

@Asklipia -- do I recall correctly that a lot of your oxalate issues diminished by taking K2 (mk-4)? Is there anything else that you felt helped?

I don't think that K2 helps, on the contrary. K2 will redirect calcium and this will cause oxalate dumping.

 

[dannybex]

I don't think that K2 helps, on the contrary. K2 will redirect calcium and this will cause oxalate dumping.

Weren't you finding benefit in general from K2 -- or was that someone else?

 

[Asklipia]

Yes, in general.

 

[alicec]

Note above that beta-alanine can also activate GlyRs, perhaps this could explain the tingling people report. I doubt it has anything to do with oxalate.

Well maybe for tingling in isolation, though tingling so intense that it felt like shards of glass, as described by @whodathunkit, certainly provokes a high suspicion that oxalate might be involved. This is exactly what people dumping oxalate via the skin experience.

As with everything, the context is important in deciding how to interpret something, and it needn't be one or other exclusively. Either could be happening at different times.

 

[dannybex]

Well maybe for tingling in isolation, though tingling so intense that it felt like shards of glass, as described by @whodathunkit, certainly provokes a high suspicion that oxalate might be involved. This is exactly what people dumping oxalate via the skin experience.

Interesting, thank you. Among the severe hip and spine pain over the last few days, I also had tingling in my right cheek yesterday and today. I thought it might be due to low calcium…maybe the oxalate was binding the calcium?

 

[alicec]

This is all so depressing

@dannybex, it can be overwhelming and confusing but just think of the oxalate issue as one more of the metabolic derangements than can be a side effect of this disease. It can contribute to and also explain some of the problems that people have, rather than being a central cause. Address it when you are able to.

Anyway, also the fact that there is so much conflicting info and studies out there is very frustrating. I posted a study above that suggested lysine may help dissolve (or bind) to them (Owens talks about it here, but then another study suggests the opposite!

Regarding conflicting info, unfortunately there is no-one who has all the answers and people who seem to be right on most things can still get it wrong. In the end we have to make up our own minds, difficult thought that can be. On the lysine issue, I don't think the second study contradicts Owens, it is talking about something quite different - namely how the proteins lysozyme and lactoferrin promote the formation of calcium oxalate crystals. These proteins contain a lot of lysine and arginine residues which strongly affect the charge properties of the whole protein, and this is thought to be important in the mechanism of crystal promotion.

Having said that I have never acted on Owen's recommendation to supplement lysine or arginine. I could see them as being problematic for other reasons.

Then there's the food lists -- some lists have a certain food as high, while others have the exact same food as low.

I think this is mainly a problem of technology. Many of the lists lying around on the internet and still used by some urologists and dieticians are very old and used questionable measurement techniques. The low ox group (and others such as the VP Foundation) has gone to considerable effort to update using the latest technology. I think you can be quite confident about their lists. Not everything is included of course because testing is an expensive exercise.

Owens says vitamin C is bad, yet Paul Jaminet says she's wrong (see comments here). I haven't taken that much (but need it desperately) because I always had problems with it (tingling -- maybe oxalate related???), but have tried some from time to time lately because I have definite sub-clinical scurvy. I did see studies where 1 or 2 grams caused problems, but no mention of the 250 mg limit that Owens talks about.

Owens quoted studies estimating that from 20-60% of a dose of vitamin C was converted to oxalate in a subsequent two week period and that this was worse in people suffering from oxidative stress. 250 mg was her cautious guesstimate of a dose that shouldn't cause trouble. It is not set in stone. I used to take very high doses but cut back to 125 mg 3 x daily when I got my head around what she was saying about oxalates. Lately I have gone up to 500 mg 3 x daily based on OAT tests showing very low vitamin C markers.

I have the greatest respect for the Jaminets and loved their book. But I have chosen to disagree with them on other things so don't necessarily accept what they say on vit C.

There were just too many bigger issues to come to terms with at the time so I didn't chase down every aspect of the vitamin C story. I was sufficiently worried about having become an endogenous oxalate producer that I just cut back on the vitamin C.

FWIW, any amount of supplemental vitamin C gives me kidney pain. If you have stones and other oxalate issues, taking C is madness IMO. I have many deficiencies but my body won't allow me to rectify them. I am in the Vegas camp with regard to nutrient deficiencies - they seem purposeful, as if they are protecting us from worse things happening.

As @Sidereal notes, what you do about vit C and other supplements depends hugely on your particular circumstances.

I too am attracted to Vegas's notions, though at the same time still cling to certain supplemental work-arounds that I am convinced are helpful. Some supplements though are intolerable and presumably there is a good reason for this.

 

[alicec]

trust that rockett/arugula is low-ox,

I think you can be quite confident about this and it is extremely low - so eat your fill. And thanks for reminding me about watercress which I left off my list of safe greens. I have gone back and edited my original post.

 

[dannybex]

FWIW, any amount of supplemental vitamin C gives me kidney pain. If you have stones and other oxalate issues, taking C is madness IMO. I have many deficiencies but my body won't allow me to rectify them. I am in the Vegas camp with regard to nutrient deficiencies - they seem purposeful, as if they are protecting us from worse things happening.

Thank you @alice -- I appreciate your taking the time to address my concerns. Definitely overwhelming, especially after being sick for 17 years now, with the last five or so being a downhill slide, especially the last year and a half. I can't get any worse.

I also am glad you quoted @Sidereal's post as well, as I had already forgotten about it (brain fog!) but was thinking along the same lines later this evening.

My glycine has ALWAYS tested low, all the way back to 2002, in both plasma and urine. Naturally I was told to correct that, and did take glycine, among many other aminos early on in my illness, without obvious harm. But that must've been because I was also taking high(er) doses of methionine and also SAMe.

Anyway, it dawned on me, that maybe the glycine was low FOR A REASON.

Hopefully, lessoned learned without too much lasting harm.

Thanks everyone.

 

[alicec]

My sister also has Hashi's like me and has a small calcified nodule on her thyroid. Calcifications are usually from Ca-Ox. I have been looking for the underlying cause of my Hashi's since 2013 and I think the oxalate deposition in the thyroid tissue makes a lot of sense.

I used to have frequent rashes (dump) dating back to when I lived in Italy from 1994-1995 and ate pizza 5x weekly (oxalate overload). Now I get rashes when I take supplements that are supposed to help with oxalate detoxification (thiamine for instance).

The thyroid is a known site of oxalate accumulation see http://www.lowoxalate.info/research.html and rashes associated with oxalate dumping via the skin are very common (often very itchy and spectacular).

I don't recall anything in particular about reflux but there are plenty of descriptions of irritation of the gut caused by dumping.

One thing I had forgotten about (and did not include in my oxalate summary) is that dumping can occur via the lungs, leading to congestion/bronchitis-like symptoms. I recall someone, can't remember who, noticing a lot of coughing. Could be relevant.

 

[Gondwanaland]

One thing I had forgotten about (and did not include in my oxalate summary) is that dumping can occur via the lungs, leading to congestion/bronchitis-like symptoms. I recall someone, can't remember who, noticing a lot of coughing. Could be relevant.

That has been my experience

DH and I unexpectedly found out that Boswellia serrata caused a major lung dumping.

Also, does anyone know if oxalates in general can cause overall dehydration?

Definetly. Polyuria for instance.

@whodathunkit :

how the proteins lysozyme and lactoferrin promote the formation of calcium oxalate crystals. These proteins contain a lot of lysine and arginine residues which strongly affect the charge properties of the whole protein, and this is thought to be important in the mechanism of crystal promotion.

I think you can be quite confident about this and it is extremely low - so eat your fill. And thanks for reminding me about watercress which I left off my list of safe greens. I have gone back and edited my original post.

After 18yrs married I have just found out that my husband's intolerances are linked to either overloading or dumping oxalates Do you know what is garlic's role on that?

rashes associated with oxalate dumping via the skin are very common (often very itchy and spectacular).

Silica supplement or silica-rich water make me feel so good although cause major dump. The last time I had access to silica-rich water I was eating tons of rye bread which caused my whole face to look like Rudolph's nose