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Recognizing Paradoxical Folate Deficiency in Papers

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    A lot of the problem with finding papers about “Paradoxical Folate Deficiency/Insufficiency” is semantic. There is no generally agreed upon word or description. Methylcobalamin can also be methylb12, methyl-b12, MeCbl, Mecobl, MeCbl, Mcbl, MB12, co-enzyme b12 and other names coming from a variety of languages. Adenosylcobalamin can be called AdoCbl, cobalamide, cobamamide, co-enzyme b12, AdB12, AB12, Dibencozide (Dibencoplex is a brand name including a trace of Boron in the AdoCbl) and others.

    The whole problem is complicated by the triage layers within the body as some layers can have fully sufficient l-methylfolate and other layers can have deficiency symptoms. So sometimes the key words to look for is “partial methylation block”, “methylation block”, “methyltrap”, “methyl-trap”, “methylfolate trap”, pseudo folate deficiency, partial folate deficiency, partial folate effectiveness, “inverted U shaped dose response curve” (or many variations of that), even “paradoxical folate deficiency” and then in non peer reviewed literature one sees all sorts of “detox” that comes down to the same sets of folate deficiency symptoms induced by NAC and/or glutathione via methyltrap. The paradoxical folate deficiency as named and described in THE HORSE (a veterinarian medicine Journal) that established the tie to folic acid on a case study looking at a specific horse receiving folic acid and the counter effectiveness, which is why I used it. It seemed the best at capturing the effect I was looking at.

    So don’t expect to find it by looking for “paradoxical folate deficiency” or “paradoxical folate insufficiency”. “Pseudo folate” is one of the more effective search phrases.
     
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  2. allyb

    allyb Senior Member

    Freddd,
    Please could I ask if a “Paradoxical Folate Deficiency/Insufficiency” could manifest as showing high levels of red cell folate?
    These were my results.........

    Active B12 *>256.0 pmol/L 25.1 - 165.0

    Red cell folate *1667 nmol/L 158 - 1099

    I DO NOT
    take any kind of folic acid either hidden in multivits or processes food. Each time I have tried to take a quarter of a Solgar Metafolin l-methylfolate I have a bad reaction to it.

    The Dr's in the UK are completely clueless and I am left chronically ill an alone with this........
    I am homozygous for MTHFR C677T Methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase........again I had to go outside the UK for this test. I would welcome any input.........I'm lost :(

    Kind wishes
    allyb
     
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  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Allyb,

    I have no idea what those might mean at any time, and especially not in the case of possible deficiencies. Please describe the "bad reaction" to Metafolin, maybe that gives some clues. Taking that without MeCbl could cause neurology damage. It also can cause low potassium by day three which would be "very sick" and that is a sign of healing turning on. Here are some lists of symptoms that often occur after starting l-methylfolate.

    Version 1.2 12/08/2013

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

    There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

    IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

    Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

    Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

    Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue


    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

    Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.

    Old symptoms returning

    Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

    Skin rashes, increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,

    Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

    Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


    Longer term, very serious

    Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily


    Group 4 - Hydroxycbl onset, degraded methylcbl onset, methylcbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
     
    allyb likes this.
  4. allyb

    allyb Senior Member

    Dear Freddd,
    Thank you for your reply....I began with the B12 as per your suggestion which I tolerate fine.....in fact the conitive improvements in the beginning were note able.......then when I add a small amount of methylfolate I suffer from a crushing change in mood that is totally alien to me. I'd say this one more or less covers it .............

    I made sure I was on a potassium rich diet.
    Thanks again
    ally
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Allyb,

    add a small amount of methylfolate

    Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations

    I would say that this list is from low folate, donut hole folate insufficiency rather than low potassium. But that will likely come up too. A too low dose of methylfolate can start more healing than the same amount can maintain. This is one of the first two flags that frequently happen. It takes folate from one or more layers to maintain the healing in the layer it started in. You could try taking say another 800mcg of methylfolate and see how much that helps for some hours, as the short halflife ends the effects in 6 hours or so for many. That is why 3 or 4 doses a day provides better responses than 1 dose per day. Too much B1, B2 or B3, may more than 50mg a day or so in some cases can cause much worse folate deficiency and much worse potassium deficiency.

    I and many people can't eat enough potassium in food fast enough to fend off these slow potassium symptoms. The food based potassium reaches a serum peak 14 hours after eating and yet leaves the serum largely within a few hours. So if a person is needing more potassium from serum when they are not having that 3 hour serum peak twice a day, wham, symptoms. I have to take at least 4 doses of potassium a day typically. I take the most with food, 600mg, as that is easier on my stomach, then a couple of more doses of 300 mg a couple more times a day, and that is in addition to the potassium in the food. If it is potassium, a person can try taking 300 mgs with a glass of water. You may feel better for a couple of hours. I repeat that dose several times to keep the symptoms at bay and then add that amount to my base dose the next day. The dangerous time release potassium at least used to carry a warning that the time release potassium was only for people "unable to comply with the frequent dosing needed for instant release potassium". The need for potassium after a person starts the deadlock quartet is usually a flag that healing via cell formation has started. It's usually a good sign. I would suggest that you could be on your way.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
    allyb likes this.
  6. nandixon

    nandixon Senior Member

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    @allyb
    The defect in MTHFR C677T is "due to the inappropriate loss of its riboflavin cofactor." (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12145019/)

    So one thing you might try is first taking extra riboflavin for a few days. (I don't know how much - perhaps somewhere between 25 and 100 mg, or more.)

    That might eventually allow you to tolerate methylfolate, if needed.
     
    allyb likes this.
  7. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Thank you for the reply.
     
  8. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    Hi Nandixon,

    I am confused about how B2 would help someone tolerate 5-MTHF. I can see how it would help someone with the MTHFR C677T mutation create 5-MTHF.

    Is there more to this picture that I'm not seeing?

    Thanks.
     
  9. nandixon

    nandixon Senior Member

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    Ally noted that her red cell folate was high. I was thinking that might possibly mean that various folate precursors to methyltetrahydrofolate (5-MTHF) weren't getting properly utilized due to the C677T SNP in MTHFR. So by improving the function of MTHFR perhaps the possible backlog of folates might be reduced. (Her red cell folate test was for total folate, I assume, so we don't know how much 5-MTHF is present. She implied she wasn't supplementing folate at the time of the test.)

    The high folate level could also mean that there's a functional problem relating to using B12, e.g., MTR/MTRR. (Her test results also showed a high B12 level. Not sure if she was supplementing B12 at the time of the test.)

    The research seems inconsistent as to what raised folate might actually mean in her case, so she'll have to experiment: (Both raised and reduced red cell folate has been reported in association with the homozygous TT genotype.)

    If the problem is with MTHFR, then if its function can be improved with riboflavin (B2), perhaps taking extra methylfolate might be possible later. Right now, taking 5-MTHF directly might inhibit MTHFR (making the backlog of folate precursors worse) or inhibit other enzymes, like SHMT, which methylfolate is known to inhibit. It's just a guess, though.

    It might also be the case that her body is already over-methylating (despite the C677T issue), and it isn't wanting any additional help with methylation (at least with respect to supplementing folate), or that there's some other problem that might need to be investigated.
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    In the papers of the 60s and 70s many researchers speculated that somehow unprocessed or partially processed folic acid blocked l-methylfolate somehow. As there was no L-methylfolate available to do an A-B comparison, the effects of folic acid could not be tested or demonstrated compared to L-methylfolate, it was all speculation. There have been warnings about this for 50 years or so. There were plenty of such mentions but no way to test the hypothesis. They just knew that folic acid doesn't work equally for everybody. The numbers given were 50% had "normal" processing of folic acid to a biological limit of 800-1000mcg, that 20% could not utilize it at all and that 30% were somewhere in between. While those numbers varied slightly over the decades, they haven't changes significantly. Some researchers maintained that not only did folic acid not work as folate for 20% of people but that it actually blocked active folate for some unknown percentage of people. And there we sit today, the numbers are no better but it is absolutely clear that folic acid does block methylfolate in some unknown percentage of people because we can see the difference by taking l-methylfolate and no folic acid at all. This effect has accumulated a variety of names.

    The ""triage response" for folate from the body also describes the effect of folate sufficiency in some areas of the body and insufficiency in other areas, just as with b12.

    from Google scholar search for "triage" b12
    Low micronutrient intake may accelerate the degenerative diseases of aging through allocation of scarce micronutrients by triage
    BN Ames - Proceedings of the National Academy of …, 2006 - National Acad Sciences
    ... If this hypothesis is correct, micronutrient deficiencies that trigger the triage response would
    accelerate cancer, aging, and neural decay but would ... Vitamin B12 deficiency is common in the
    population (4); it is associated with cognitive dysfunction (65) and multiple sclerosis (66 ...

    from Google scholar search for "triage" folate
    Low micronutrient intake may accelerate the degenerative diseases of aging through allocation of scarce micronutrients by triage
    BN Ames - Proceedings of the National Academy of …, 2006 - National Acad Sciences
    ... If this hypothesis is correct, micronutrient deficiencies that trigger the triage response would
    accelerate ... For example, folic acid intakes above the RDA appear to be necessary to minimize ...
    Folate deficiency also causes chromosome breaks (11, 56, 68) and is associated with ...

    Same article. For the folate search there are claimed 3000+ search items. For the b12 search there are 1700+ articles.

    And so here we have "donut hole paradoxical folate deficiency".
     
  11. reallyconfused

    reallyconfused

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    @allyb - Have you figured out how to tolerate l-methylfolate? I am dealing with very similar problems! I take Solgar MB12 5000 mcg daily, Source naturals Adb12 10,000mcg(half tablet once a week) without any problem. More energy, clearer thinking etc.. But once I add even a tiny amount of LMTHF(say even less than 100mcg), severe depression, brain fog starts the very next day(not the same day, though). For potassium, I have so far relied only on food... 3 glasses of milk, 4 bananas, coconut water, one baked potato a day in addition to my usual diet!

    As I understand from the forum, that skipping LMTHF is not a fix, I would like to know how I can incorporate methylfolate into my regimen.
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Reallyconfused,

    Try picturing that there are 8 (or something like that) B12/folate triage levels that are supplied folate independently. If you have just enough for activating a level or 2 fully, without having to take folate from any other level no deficiency symptoms. You add a tiny bit and get a large increase in deficiency symptoms as another level starts to heal but without enough folate so it then steals from other levels. That is an artifact of taking "tiny doses". This can stretch out the deficiency symptoms making them last indefinitely. Also, you could have low potassium creeping up on you. Food based potassium, could be enough for most people if they ate 5000 calories a day. It also takes 14 hours after ingestion for peak serum level for any food based potassium. Potassium and water can start absorbing in 15 minutes by frequent experience..Also, AdoCbl and carnitine need to be in there to get the whole cycle working. Cell building needs both methylation and ATP. For me 400 mcg of folate would be intolerable. I would have a dozen or more symptoms worsening daily after a week. The induced deficiency symptoms which are what bothers people is inversely related to mfolate dose. The more you take the fewr the symptoms. Then the majority of symptoms to deal with are the ones from low [potassium or low something else or no AdoCbl and LCF.. For me it came down to copper deficiency symptoms were all that were increasing until I started copper.
     
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  13. reallyconfused

    reallyconfused

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    @Freddd - Thats a very detailed answer! Thanks so much! I have a very busy week ahead right now. From my past experience of total intolerance to tiny amount of LMTHF atleast 4 or 5 times independently, I am so scared to even touch it again. I will give it a try this weekend. I will take 800mcg, I will keep potassium on hand. I will post the results next week.

    Another question, before I try... I had already ordered L-Carnitine... only after I opened the package I came to know, its L-Carnitine Tartrate. Is it useless? Also L-Carnitine should be taken daily or only on days I take Adb12?
     
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I take Carnitine in the morning upon waking up along wioth SAM-e and a medication and a couple of other things that can't be take with food as well as my first 9600 mcg of methylfolate. It needs to be taken daily. As far as tartrate goes, I don't know. Many people can get good results with freebase carnitine. Of those who have to have a specific form 90% or so do wonderfully on fumarate and nothing else, and 10% on ALCAR but not anything else. Some people who don't need it because of lack of synthesis can use all forms. I have never been able to use a mix either. The difference is breathtaking but you won't know unless you hit bingo straight off. I know of nobody finding tartrate away. The Drs Best LCF is made by Sigma Tau (Carnipure by brand name, like Metafolin is no matter who sells it) and so is Jarrow's. So are some other brands.

    The potassium kicks in almost always on or after the 3rd day. Methylfolate changes can start in hours and are either worsening and additional symptoms or a lessening of symptoms the refeeding syndrome helps show one direction. Do you know where one of the copies of groups 1-4 info on folate and potassium deficiency symptoms is available".

    And don't start the carnitine with it. That needs to wait until after the folate is in control and for a lot of people it is very powerful and with carnitine, titration works in the intuitively obvious way that you expect methylfolate to titrate. Also, by adding only the carnitine when you do it you will know if you have the right one or not rather than muddle all the waters w mixing the results of several things. Also, I don't suggest taking CoQ10 while starting these things. That does well much later. That has to be added after the fact. It can increase blood pressure too much. Send me your email on my private message and I will reply so you can access me for questions. Please write down all your symptoms and their severity, from the symptoms list and their intensities. Then each day indicate changes. symptoms added or subtracted etc. Color code things to make things easier to see. If you can find that full list of symptoms and nutrients and use that as your order of symptoms for grouping purposes. Also add everything not included at the bottom please. Otherwise let me know and I can post it to you.

    What were your intolerance symptoms on the other occasions, in full detail please including everything. That can tell us a LOT. To the left of the "current symptoms mark the ones you had at the time of the folate reactions. Then put a column of each time you tried folate and put in the symptoms. WHeter an increase, decrease, or add dthe additiona symptoms in the original and if they are not normally present rate them 0 in presenbt and previous, and then 1-7 of the intensity (7 is most) for each symptom it affected. Also of course rate all the current symptoms. Ones you never had leave blank but leave the all symptoms on the list in order even if never had. This gives us the context. Doing all this isn't easy but once you have your current state in and the changes. Enter all changes please and note at top the date and what was added. Years ago I said things like keep a diary and that just wasn't enough. The information has to be organized to be potentially useful.
     
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  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Incidentally, working with blackstrap molasses today in the kitchen reminded me that it has 600mg of potassium per tablespoon, phosphorous and other minerals. This can be considered as part of an overall program as a supplement or in food. And don't write off liver if you like it well enough to eat it. I grew up in a mixed neighborhood; Jewish and Catholic mostly. Both sets of mothers were big on liver in general.

    My M-I-L was considered a "healthfood nut" by her friends. Her partner after her husband died converted to healthfood and was in a hospital heart health program that used exercise and nutrition. They both lived into their 90s and buried all their junk food friends.

    I cook from scratch, virtually no prepared foods, no vitaminized foods. No white flour or products because of folic acid and CyCbl. We bake our own whole wheat bread, and sometimes add wheat germ for nutrition. I also use wheat germ as a tasty topping on baled things. There was a cookbook done some years ago CONFESSIONS OF A SNEAKY ORGANIC COOK.
     
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  16. reallyconfused

    reallyconfused

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    Wow Freddd, I can't thank you enough for your answers! Good news is that, this time I am tolerating methylfolate(1000mcg) well without the neurological symptoms I experienced previously! This time I am doing the following differently from last few times:

    1. I am taking Adb12 (which I was not taking before. I was taking only Methylb12 and Methylfolate, other B vitamins, ultra concentrated fish oils).

    2. I am taking potassium in supplement form (potassium chloride 1.5g a day)

    3. I switched from Jarrow's MethylB12 to Solgar MethylB12 (5000mcg twice daily under upper lip)

    So, which one of these helped me? Also, when I take Adb12 without methylfolate 3 days in a row, I get the same neurological symptoms as methyltrap (confusion, poor memory, severe inattention, depression, blurred vision etc). Same symptoms appear when I take Methylfolate without Adb12. It takes about 3 days for the symptoms to start and again 2 days for the symptoms to disappear after I discontinue. So, what's going on? Any idea?

    Also, 2 days back I tried L-Carnitine tartrate, and it was so good! So much energy, clear mind, happy! Got to see how it goes.

    One last question... What do you think about liposomal methylB12?

    http://www.amazon.com/Methylcobalam...idylethanolamine-Seeking-Health/dp/B00F0T41GU

    This one I used last year, and it was amazing! It was like some light went ON inside by brain! I have not got the same results with Jarrow or Solgar! Planning to switch to liposomal version again. Only problem is that I live in India, and when I order from the US I try to order 3 or 4 bottles otherwise I end up paying twice the price of product for shipping!! And the liposomal version is in a solution, so when I get to the 3rd bottle, it might have already become HydroxyB12. This is the only reason I switched over to Sublinguals in the 1st place. Liposomal worked wonders for me actually!

    And, if we get a one time "WOW" reaction from MethylB12, Adb12, methylfolate combo and then go back to previous state, we might be running short of co-factors as I understand. How to know which one we are missing?
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Really confused,

    I haven't tried the liposomal MeCbl. If you get the neurological brightening, that is a flag saying "
    pay attention". This is all very complicated. For me, I am now finding out that I was in trouble on multiple trace minerals. That comes after getting healing going consistently. Now consider all these items. Methylfolate affects the serum half-life of MeCbl and AdoCbl at least to some degree. Even with methylfolate the blood is about 98-99% cleared of any dose of MeCbl and AdoCbl in 3 days. So first get a steady set of doses going on all 4 items; MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate and L-carnitine (the variety that works best for you, some may not work at all noticeably while another variety has so much kick one has to titrate from lower levels). The groups of symptoms below identify many of the induced deficiencies and in three days the pones that appear are low potassium and low methylfolate. Basically the series of induced, or revealed, deficiencies was named "refeeding syndrome" after WW II.

    I have found that different methods of absorption bring different results with various forms of MeCbl. It is known and mentioned that MeCbl comes in a number of varieties with internal differences, possibly different geometries (isomers, stereo isomers) or whatever causes the variations also causes different effects. Some help the nerves better. Some appear to penetrate the BBB more easily or something. I found that a combination works best.


    If the symptoms are all your basic methylation symptoms, that can be an out of balance situation of the Deadlock Quartet. If you have all for started and don't have healing startup requiring more potassium or folate, then the things thaqt have helped me and/or others get basic methylation going have been Vitamin D (about 1- 5% for D and the rest), Magnesium, Zinc (up to 50mg), SAM-e, TMG, (comparing the effects of L-carnitine fumarate, ALCAR, l-carnitine tartrate and L-carnitine (freebase), one may work far better), Biotin, D-ribose. These generally, collectively as they all depend on each other, increase response to perhaps 99% of those with the symptoms. But all this depends on building that balance of the basic 4 and getting it either working , or not working, but stably. Then you know that further symptoms are uncovered or induced deficiencies.

    After all these more fundamental and likely items are taken care of then there is also Copper, Boron, manganese, molybdenum and likely some others. A lot of that depends on the soils your food is grown in. Also,it took me 5 or 6 years of healing to exhaust my body's supply of these trace minerals so the onset may be very slow or show up immediately after other symptoms have been removed they become visible. If I worsened gums and teeth check copper. I wish somebody could have told me that specifically 6 years ago.

    Version 2.0 12/23/2015 A work in process, incomplete, use at your own risk.


    INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

    There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

    IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

    Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

    Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

    Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue



    Group 3 - Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels


    These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

    Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.


    Old symptoms returning

    Edema

    Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

    Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,


    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue


    Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

    Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


    Longer term, very serious

    Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily




    Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.


    Group 5 – Copper deficiency after methylation startup has been achieved which often starts refeeding syndrome. 50mg or more of zinc has been suspected as a possible cause. 200-400 mg of zinc has been linked to copper deficiency. Excess supplemental or environmental manganese is linked to copper deficiency. Any or all symptoms can occur at “low normal range” copper tests.


    Demyelination of nerves similar to Sub Acute Combined Degeneration except that methylation and ATP startup has occurred, and copper deficiency favors damage to the upper motor neurons with perceived muscle weakness. Brittle nails. Sleep disorders. Mood (especially depression perhaps) and personality changes. Connective tissue breakdown. Spider veins. Varicose veins. Shrinking gums. Gum disease not responsive to usual measures. Gom disease without infection. Cyanotic (bluish) look and inflammation. Unstoppable tooth decay on exposed areas without enamel. Low testosterone.


    Group 6 – Excess P-5-P, an active form of B6 that appears to drive hematocrit.

    High hematocrit. The blood thickens and doesn’t pump as easily. Deep vein thrombosis can result. Other suspected circulatory hazards. Sometimes linked to high testosterone when lowering P-5-P might reduce it.


    Group 7 – Excess B-vitamins affecting methylation

    When taking the active B12/folate deadlock quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-methylfolate) Excess B1 - Thiamin, Excess B2 – Riboflavin, Excess B3 – Niacin and/or Excess Inositol can all produce an excess need for potassium to deal with Groups 1, 2a and 2b symptoms and/or produce an excess need for l-methylfolate to reduce groups 2a, 2b and 3 symptoms. A person might not be able to correct by taking potassium or folate and may need to reduce B1 <= 15mg/day, B2<= 10.2mg/day, B3 <=50mg, and inositol below an unknown quantity. The quantities for any specific person may vary, even for that person over time. Too little of these can also cause similar problems.


    Group 8 – Boron.

    Arthritis swelling and pain, can be reduced by Boron

    https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/minerals/boron.html

    Although all of the deficiency symptoms of boron are not fully understood, it is known that boron deficiency might result in the abnormal metabolism of calcium and magnesium. Some of the other symptoms include hyperthyroidism, sex hormone imbalance, osteoporosis, arthritis and neural malfunction.



    I have found that different methods of absorption bring different results. It is known and mentioned that MeCbl comes in a number of varieties with internal differences, possibly different geometries (isomers, stereo isomers) or whatever causes the variations also causes different effects. Some help the nerves better. Some appear to penetrate the BBB more easily or something. I found that a combination works best.
     
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  18. Hufsamor

    Hufsamor

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    Thanks to Freddd and this forum, I have realized I don't tolerate food rich on folate.I belive freddd wrote somewhere the supplements he takes to be able to eat some folate food? But I can't find it again! Can someone please help me?
     
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Hi Hufsamor,

    I'll tell you my current state and findings on folates. AI can't tolerate milk, cheese, and things like that. I used to eat a lot of it and liked those products. I found along the way that folic acid was a huge problem, much more so than I ever thought at first. The research put the percentages of people able to convert at least 800 mcg of folic acid a day at 50%, part of that converted 30% and none concerted at all was at 20%. Minor differences are found between studies but it is basically that. Then some researchers also suggest that excess unconverted folic acid could block the l-methylfolate. From reading it sounded like it took large amounts over what one could convert.

    After I worked up to 30 mg/day of l-methylfolate Deplin equivalent and my folate symptoms went from a dozen or more down to zero deficiency symptoms. Then I had the small group of copper deficiency symptoms, all of which were methylation lack symptoms, but very specific ones affect connective tissues, neurological (upper motor neurons with SACD type damage) and mood/personality changes and sleep disorders as well as tissue fissures at the corners of fingernails. All of these can happen with B12 and/or folate deficiencies but with many more symptoms and signs. Size of the set matters.

    I had completely removed folic acid from my diet because I HAD TO KNOW. Then about 6 months ago I started Kirkland (Costco) organic Soy Milk with 80 mcg of unspecified folate and no folate ingredient besides the soy itself. However, soy milk unsupplemented has 4 mcg per cup of folate (folic acid said but probably not correct). So the other 76 mcg of unspecified "folate" is virtually all folic acid. The thing is, in 6 months I had fissures in skin at the fingernail corners, depression, sleep disorders, all usually accompanied with a dozen or more other symptoms when I take 800 mcg of folic acid a day. Then in a couple of days after quitting the soy milk, the burn came out of the fissures and in a week they were well on the way to healing. They lacked the angular cheilitis, the acne type lesions, the eczema and other symptoms that usually show up first with higher doses of folic acid.

    I eat small servings of veggies instead of large. I don't eat large salads and multiple vegetable servings any more. I avoid green drinks and big fresh garden feasts. Now I know that 80 mcg a day of folic acid or maybe vegetable folates every day, causes and maintains multiple deficiency symptoms.

    I'm sorry that there isn't any magic way to eat folate containing veggies for those sensitive like me that I know about and that far less folic acid than I ever expected cause deficiency symptoms. There may not be a folic acid level low enough that allows me to eat it without having it induce deficiency symptoms. I try to mostly avoid those veggies with huge amounts of folate. I don't drink the broth from many steamed veggies any more, too much folate. I can't avoid veggie folate entirely. The vegetables have too many other nutrients and they offer flavor and variety and all sorts of good reasons to eat them. They are the "trimmings" like a steak with all the trimmings like salad and onions and potatoes all sorts of veggies. So I don't have a good solution. I try to vary what I eat and go to zero folic acid and veggies folates a couple of days a week. I eat a lot of tomatoes and tomato sauces as it isn't high in folates. Good luck.
     
  20. Hufsamor

    Hufsamor

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    Sad news
    But thank you so much for your answer!
    And I am glad to hear you dont avoid veggie folate completely.
    (I really miss my broccoli.)
    The last half year I have really poisoned myself, eating 80% folate rich foods, but of course I did not realize. I couldn't understand why I felt the way I did, eating so extremely healthy. And i loved the food. I guess i would never have figured it out, if it wasn't for your writings.
    Thanks again.
     
    Luther Blissett likes this.

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