Wow Freddd, I can't thank you enough for your answers! Good news is that, this time I am tolerating methylfolate(1000mcg) well without the neurological symptoms I experienced previously! This time I am doing the following differently from last few times:
1. I am taking Adb12 (which I was not taking before. I was taking only Methylb12 and Methylfolate, other B vitamins, ultra concentrated fish oils).
2. I am taking potassium in supplement form (potassium chloride 1.5g a day)
3. I switched from Jarrow's MethylB12 to Solgar MethylB12 (5000mcg twice daily under upper lip)
So, which one of these helped me? Also, when I take Adb12 without methylfolate 3 days in a row, I get the same neurological symptoms as methyltrap (confusion, poor memory, severe inattention, depression, blurred vision etc). Same symptoms appear when I take Methylfolate without Adb12. It takes about 3 days for the symptoms to start and again 2 days for the symptoms to disappear after I discontinue. So, what's going on? Any idea?
Also, 2 days back I tried L-Carnitine tartrate, and it was so good! So much energy, clear mind, happy! Got to see how it goes.
One last question... What do you think about liposomal methylB12?
http://www.amazon.com/Methylcobalam...idylethanolamine-Seeking-Health/dp/B00F0T41GU
This one I used last year, and it was amazing! It was like some light went ON inside by brain! I have not got the same results with Jarrow or Solgar! Planning to switch to liposomal version again. Only problem is that I live in India, and when I order from the US I try to order 3 or 4 bottles otherwise I end up paying twice the price of product for shipping!! And the liposomal version is in a solution, so when I get to the 3rd bottle, it might have already become HydroxyB12. This is the only reason I switched over to Sublinguals in the 1st place. Liposomal worked wonders for me actually!
And, if we get a one time "WOW" reaction from MethylB12, Adb12, methylfolate combo and then go back to previous state, we might be running short of co-factors as I understand. How to know which one we are missing?
Hi Really confused,
I haven't tried the liposomal MeCbl. If you get the neurological brightening, that is a flag saying "
pay attention". This is all very complicated. For me, I am now finding out that I was in trouble on multiple trace minerals. That comes after getting healing going consistently. Now consider all these items. Methylfolate affects the serum half-life of MeCbl and AdoCbl at least to some degree. Even with methylfolate the blood is about 98-99% cleared of any dose of MeCbl and AdoCbl in 3 days. So first get a steady set of doses going on all 4 items; MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate and L-carnitine (the variety that works best for you, some may not work at all noticeably while another variety has so much kick one has to titrate from lower levels). The groups of symptoms below identify many of the induced deficiencies and in three days the pones that appear are low potassium and low methylfolate. Basically the series of induced, or revealed, deficiencies was named "refeeding syndrome" after WW II.
I have found that different methods of absorption bring different results with various forms of MeCbl. It is known and mentioned that MeCbl comes in a number of varieties with internal differences, possibly different geometries (isomers, stereo isomers) or whatever causes the variations also causes different effects. Some help the nerves better. Some appear to penetrate the BBB more easily or something. I found that a combination works best.
If the symptoms are all your basic methylation symptoms, that can be an out of balance situation of the Deadlock Quartet. If you have all for started and don't have healing startup requiring more potassium or folate, then the things thaqt have helped me and/or others get basic methylation going have been Vitamin D (about 1- 5% for D and the rest), Magnesium, Zinc (up to 50mg), SAM-e, TMG, (comparing the effects of L-carnitine fumarate, ALCAR, l-carnitine tartrate and L-carnitine (freebase), one may work far better), Biotin, D-ribose. These generally, collectively as they all depend on each other, increase response to perhaps 99% of those with the symptoms. But all this depends on building that balance of the basic 4 and getting it either working , or not working, but stably. Then you know that further symptoms are uncovered or induced deficiencies.
After all these more fundamental and likely items are taken care of then there is also Copper, Boron, manganese, molybdenum and likely some others. A lot of that depends on the soils your food is grown in. Also,it took me 5 or 6 years of healing to exhaust my body's supply of these trace minerals so the onset may be very slow or show up immediately after other symptoms have been removed they become visible. If I worsened gums and teeth check copper. I wish somebody could have told me that specifically 6 years ago.
Version 2.0 12/23/2015 A work in process, incomplete, use at your own risk.
INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response
Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).
There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.
IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,
Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness
Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure
Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.
Group 2a - Both
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Group 2b – Either or both
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue
Group 3 - Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels
These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.
Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.
Old symptoms returning
Edema
Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,
Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue
Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms
IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,
Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,
Longer term, very serious
Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily
Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.
Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
Group 5 – Copper deficiency after methylation startup has been achieved which often starts refeeding syndrome. 50mg or more of zinc has been suspected as a possible cause. 200-400 mg of zinc has been linked to copper deficiency. Excess supplemental or environmental manganese is linked to copper deficiency. Any or all symptoms can occur at “low normal range” copper tests.
Demyelination of nerves similar to Sub Acute Combined Degeneration except that methylation and ATP startup has occurred, and copper deficiency favors damage to the upper motor neurons with perceived muscle weakness. Brittle nails. Sleep disorders. Mood (especially depression perhaps) and personality changes. Connective tissue breakdown. Spider veins. Varicose veins. Shrinking gums. Gum disease not responsive to usual measures. Gom disease without infection. Cyanotic (bluish) look and inflammation. Unstoppable tooth decay on exposed areas without enamel. Low testosterone.
Group 6 – Excess P-5-P, an active form of B6 that appears to drive hematocrit.
High hematocrit. The blood thickens and doesn’t pump as easily. Deep vein thrombosis can result. Other suspected circulatory hazards. Sometimes linked to high testosterone when lowering P-5-P might reduce it.
Group 7 – Excess B-vitamins affecting methylation
When taking the active B12/folate deadlock quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-methylfolate) Excess B1 - Thiamin, Excess B2 – Riboflavin, Excess B3 – Niacin and/or Excess Inositol can all produce an excess need for potassium to deal with Groups 1, 2a and 2b symptoms and/or produce an excess need for l-methylfolate to reduce groups 2a, 2b and 3 symptoms. A person might not be able to correct by taking potassium or folate and may need to reduce B1 <= 15mg/day, B2<= 10.2mg/day, B3 <=50mg, and inositol below an unknown quantity. The quantities for any specific person may vary, even for that person over time. Too little of these can also cause similar problems.
Group 8 – Boron.
Arthritis swelling and pain, can be reduced by Boron
https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/minerals/boron.html
Although all of the deficiency symptoms of boron are not fully understood, it is known that boron deficiency might result in the abnormal metabolism of calcium and magnesium. Some of the other symptoms include hyperthyroidism, sex hormone imbalance, osteoporosis, arthritis and neural malfunction.
I have found that different methods of absorption bring different results. It is known and mentioned that MeCbl comes in a number of varieties with internal differences, possibly different geometries (isomers, stereo isomers) or whatever causes the variations also causes different effects. Some help the nerves better. Some appear to penetrate the BBB more easily or something. I found that a combination works best.