Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

[Gondwanaland]

@alicec I love cardamom too and had been using it sometimes, but now it causes my anxiety just to think about it

I think the reason that ginger tea works for flu symptoms is that its oxalate content is enough to stop dumping

I find cinnamom hard to tolerate due to high phenol and histamine content. If I could supplement with B6 it would be a nice one to reintroduce

I was looking into introducing cumin in my diet to improve glucuronidation, but now I am not so sure about it What do you think about it? Tiny amounts?

 

[alicec]

Tiny amounts?

That should be fine. It is fairly low in soluble oxalates.

 

[Gondwanaland]

That should be fine. It is fairly low in soluble oxalates.

As long as I don't take any cardamom in the same day!
Seriously, it just ruined cardamom for me

 

[Violeta]

"CaOx crystal–induced NLRP3 (inflammation) activation depends on phagocytosis and potassium efflux".

 

[Crux]

This abstract lists a number of bacteria that have been found in calcium oxalate stones.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23334195

In summary, intact viable E. coli, K. pneumoniae, S. aureus, and S. pneumoniae had significant promoting effects on CaOx crystal growth and aggregation. This functional evidence supported the hypothesis that various types of bacteria can induce or aggravate metabolic stone disease, particularly the CaOx type.

 

[Violeta]

Inflammation in the kidney/inflammasome/NLRP3/oxalates.

More on NLRP3 and inflammasome in the kidneys. This would explain why oxalates cause inflammation in some people and not others. "Although the exact mechanism of NLRP3 activation is unknown, there are three distinct models which have been extensively studied and proposed to account for NLRP3 activation: potassium efflux, the generation of reactive oxygen species and phagolysosomal destabilization leading to cathepsin leakage into the cytosol [14] (Figure 1). Various bacterial toxins, haemolysins and extracellular ATP activate the inflammasome via P2X7 channels, whereas, several crystals, such as hemozoin, silica and antibiotics, and anti-fungal drugs activate the inflammasome via both reactive oxygen production and cathepsin-B release [15–17] (Table 1). Recent studies from our laboratory have demonstrated that activation of inflammasome by uromodulin [18] and calcium oxalate [19] involves all three mechanisms to produce mature IL-1β

Inflammasome can be a good thing, though. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2824856/

 

[alicec]

This abstract lists a number of bacteria that have been found in calcium oxalate stones.

Proteus mirabilis UTI are well known for precipitating stone formation. The bacterium has a very active urease enzyme which splits urea, producing ammonia. This in turn makes the urine alkaline, promoting stone formation.

I didn't want to pay to read the whole article so don't know if anything about the experiments could rule in or out that similar mechanisms are involved with these other bacteria.

With P. mirabilis, bacteria in the stones remain as an ongoing source of infection and stone formation seems to attract and entrap other bacterial species which also act as foci of infection.

 

[Jimbo39]

I'm too brain dead to read this entire thread, but is there a way to test for oxalates? I know my kidneys are not functioning properly. Could oxalate build up contribute to this? I've only had one kidney stone about 20 years ago.

 

[helen1]

Yes, if you get an organic acids test (OAT) one of the things they test for is the metabolites of oxalic acid or oxalates. You can get an OAT through any naturopath.

@Jimbo39

 

[Jimbo39]

Yes, if you get an organic acids test (OAT) one of the things they test for is the metabolites of oxalic acid or oxalates. You can get an OAT through any naturopath.

Humm. I had an organic acid test thro Genova. What are the metabolites of oxalates?

 

[Gondwanaland]

I've only had one kidney stone about 20 years ago.

I don't think anyone in this thread had kidney stones issues...

 

[Jimbo39]

I don't think anyone in this thread had kidney stones issues...

Are kidney stones made from oxalates?

 

[alicec]

Yes, if you get an organic acids test (OAT) one of the things they test for is the metabolites of oxalic acid or oxalates. You can get an OAT through any naturopath.

Only the OAT from Great Plains Laboratory tests for all three oxalate markers, viz oxalic, glyceric, glycolic acids.

Other tests just test oxalate.

Are kidney stones made from oxalates?

Calcium oxalate stones are by far the most common (around 80% I think).

 

[helen1]

Humm. I had an organic acid test thro Genova. What are the metabolites of oxalates?

From Great Plains lab:
Oxalate and its acid form oxalic acid are organic acids that are primarily from three sources: the diet, from fungus such as Aspergillus and Penicillium and possibly Candida (1-9), and also from human metabolism (10).

Foods especially high in oxalates include spinach, beets, chocolate, peanuts, wheat bran, tea, cashews, pecans, almonds, berries, and many others.

 

[alicec]

What are the metabolites of oxalates?

Humans don't metabolise oxalate, it is an endpoint. It is a metabolic poison which the body simply dumps.

Glyceric and glycolic (tested in GPL OAT) are precursors which can be converted into oxalate.

 

[helen1]

Humans don't metabolise oxalate, it is an endpoint. It is a metabolic poison which the body simply dumps.

Glyceric and glycolic (tested in GPL OAT) are precursors which can be converted into oxalate.

Our GI tracts (the yeasts in them that is) can produce oxalates though. And the body doesn't always dump oxalate out of the body. In some of us, oxalates are distributed into joints and other tissues where they cause pain and damage.

 

[Peace]

This abstract lists a number of bacteria that have been found in calcium oxalate stones.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23334195

my former diet was very high in oxalates (sweet potatoes, broccoli) and collagen supplementation, bone broth and excessive protein which the later was shown as an issue in my genova OAT. Far too much protein I also have overgrowth in candida and 2 of those 3 bacteria (K. pneumoniae, S. aureus) in my CDSA result. Overgrowth of citro, strept., b. fragilis. No E. Coli, Lacto. growth which I'm trying to resolve by raising bifido and taking prebiotics/GOS.

I also have ankylosing spondylitis from K. pneumoniae overgrowth and it's tough walking since I can't walk straight or lift my head.

I have very high uric acid, oxalates in most of my joints. My kidneys/lower back was hurting so bad much a few days ago which was aggravated by high dose p5p/b6 and/or acetyl carnithine. I've never taken b6 in high dose or much at all aside from a multi. So the abrupt change probably caused a reaction. I cured/relieved my Calcium oxalates/kidney pain using mg citrate/glycinate, b vitamins, arginine, lemon/acidic juices with oil, taurine. Have no idea what is going on or what I'm doing/ or what pathways I'm pushing. If I'm excreting uric acid from my kidneys. I need to salvage purines. Don't know if I'm detoxing or just mobilizing something and worsening my root cause.

Everything seems to lead back to dysbiosis, specifically candida and opportunistic bacteria which survive the toughest of treatments. I've been following Grace Liu and heisenberg which have helped the most along with diet/low oxalates and b/mineral supplementation. Liu's blog and people heisenberg are really great and what I enjoy reading. Although I warn those who are intolerate to some of the bacterial strains and inulin/RS2 is something I'd avoid. prebiotics like GOS, acai, aronia and arabinogalactan have been well tolerated. Trying to raise bifido, which should raise E.coli. And just help improve growth of Lacto. Prescript assist has helped the most. And d lactate/histamine free probiotics. Once things settled down and I felt like I could tolerate histamine, ammonia through detoxing or degrading, I added farmhouse sauerkraut brand and that helped somewhat. Then B. infantis and L. plantarum. Also L. rhamnosus, reuteri. I'm just focusing too much on everything especially reducing gut irritating foods, oxalates, paleo and bacterial strains. Low-moderate fructose/starch. Making my own fermented foods. For L.G., Thorne's l glutamine has helped whereas NAG significantly worsened my symptoms.

So many issues along with my severe psoriasis, arthritis, silver/copper toxicity, mineral and vitamin deficiencies, MAOA, COMT for fibro,ABC rs2231142(A;A) for gout, MTHFR c677t (+/-), joint damages in my neck, fingers, wrist, knees, feet and a crazy amount of anxiety, IBS-c, leaky gut/food sensitivities, hypothyroidism, insomnia, very high cortisol, CRP, sigA, inflammation, EOS, inability to concentrate, unwanted moodiness/anger and depression. I still get brain fog, ammonia and histamine reactions from probiotics and prebiotics from the night before. I sometimes wake up late with brain fog from ammonia and herx. I'm also trying to get rid of ammonia, peroxynitrite, NO as well. Used to have cfs.
Anyways, I have to compile some questions, ideas, concerns to tell me functional Dr within a week and I don't know where to start, what to prioritize. I can't talk to my doc whenever i want because of policy. so this is it. It's causing stress and anxiety thinking what to say or what treatment to try. I'm new in a lot of areas.

If anyone wants to check out my thread to help, appreciate it.http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...eting-hdri-cdsa-oat-tests-among-others.46084/

 

[Crux]

Hi @Peace ,

I only found that one abstract wherein microbes were detected in calcium oxalate stones.

I tend to suspect that microbes are causing many conditions; by producing toxic products, along with the body's attempts to fight them.

 

[Violeta]

Someone from Susan's facebook group has been taking shilajit and testing if it is helping her tolerate oxalates. She gave a good report today of eating higher oxalate and drinking black tea without the usual pain that they would cause her.

That would mean it would probably be good for gout, too.

 

[Asklipia]

OXALOBACT capsules that contain each :
- Bifidobacterium lactis 300 million,
- Lactobacillus rhamnosus 300 million,
- Lactobacillus acidophilus 400 million,
- Oxalobacter formigenes 700 million,
- FOS 100 mg.

I am wondering whether those are d-lactate forming bacteria. I could not find the strains used. @alicec Do you have an idea?