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Need help interpreting HDRI, CDSA, oat tests among others...

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Peace, Aug 7, 2016.

  1. Peace

    Peace

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    Hi everyone,

    Just want to say I'm happy I stumbled upon this site. someone gave me a link to the biofilm thread while I was trying to fix my gut. thanks for everyone for their own research and contribution. This site has been very helpful.

    I need help interpreting my Health Diagnostics and Research Institute (HDRI) methylation test results, 23andme, common methylation and detox SNPs from geneticgenic. And advice on what treatment I should follow? Starting out, I've been using Fredd's b12 protocol along with Rich's simplified protocol. Looking at my SNPs on geneticgenie and a few SNPs related to muscle pain on 23andme with reference to Snpedia, I don't see many problems with my main detoxification and methylation SNPs other than MAO-A and COMT rs4633, rs 4680 for fibromylgia/pain. +/- MTHFR c677t, ignoring the +/+CBS360A.

    Overall, my SNPs don't suggest any potential issues that I know of. But my methylation tests shows I have nutrient/cofactors deficiencies across the board and slowed methylation and/or block.

    For methylation and supplementation for overall health;
    Should I use Rich's treatment along with most of Fredd's recommendation of essential and additional co factors? I should be supplementing these anyways to replenish loss vitamins and minerals from being sick for so long.

    For methylation supplementation and other reasons; I'm on liq. hydroxyb12 (peroxynitrite), high P5p/B6, liq. adenob12/methylb12, folinic acid/L-MTHF, metafolin, phospholipids/serine complex, tmg and the rest of the all important b vitamins..b1, b2 fmn and b2, biotin and niacin/b3 if needed. Should I supplement with SAMe directly or take precursors? and phosphylcholine to lessen the need for it. A b complex?

    What dosages for b12, folate b6, and others? I've tolerated everything so far. Should I increase it or assume everything is fine. Do pulsing? I've also stopped liposomal GSH a while ago. I've never taken GSH precursors like NAC even when it shows on an OAT..

    This is becoming too much to supplement and overwhelming.
    Also trying to find a mutivitamin and high ORAC/polyphenols powder with antioxidants to go with my morning probiotics/prebiotics shake. One that I can tolerate (no enzymes, antimicrobial herbs, lacto. acidophilus or histamine). Just using a mineral liquid complex and acai, aronia powders.

    Anyways, here are my symptoms, health issues and concerns:
    Severe autoimmune skin disease, equally severe arthritis; think handicapped, gout/high uric acid, swollen/stiff joints in neck, fingers, knees, feet, I have ankylosing spondylitis and my curvature makes it difficult to walk straight, insomnia, little fatigue, muscle soreness especially in my arm/shoulders, IBS-C, strong appetite for fat/carbs, sensitives, very anemic, low iron/Iron Bind.Cap.(TIBC), cold sensitivites, cold hands/feet, underweight, anxiety, depression at times, feeling of empitness, easily frustrated/upset and worrying (anxiety). Just to name a few. I used to have more fatigue, get tired easily and brain fog.

    sidenote; I'm unsure of what happened to me in the past few days. I had problems with my kidney and lower back which was preventing me from bending. I already had terrible posture. Could it be likely have had calcium oxalates/kidney stones? Only thing I added was adding higher doses of b6 prior. twinlab's acetyl-carnithine. I alleviated the pain considerably with B6, B's supplementation/Mg/Mg citrate, arginine, taurine, diet and drinking something acidic frequently.

    HDRI
    upload_2016-8-5_23-47-50.png
    geneticgenie
    upload_2016-8-5_23-48-48.png
    23andme's raw data:
    SUOX rs705703 56391486 C or T C / C
    SUOX i5000977 56397916 A or C A / A
    SUOX i6028286 56397941 C or T C / C
    SUOX i5000976 56398711 A or G A / A
    mthfr-support; no comt snps that i see could be a problem other than what i mentioned earlier.
    upload_2016-8-6_13-8-42.png
    I did Promethease as well and see some interesting analysis.
    first thing that shows up,
    rs2231142(A;A)
    causes gout

    hmm..
    rs6265(A;A)
    introversion; depression resistant; impaired motor skills learning

    balding runs in the family
    gs122

    thyroid cancer
    rs2145418(G;G)

    Those are some of lowest frequency and more relevant snps if i understand things correctly.

    Are there any other SNPs that I should be looking at for other health issues?

    I know these DNA SNPs and results don't necessarily predispose one to a disease; I'm just interested in them since people have done a lot of research in this field. How significant of a causative agent are SNPs to someone developing a illness or is it more of a deeper issue like stress, diet, nutritional imbalance, overgrowth or infection, environment, aftermath of overgrowth and its byproducts leading to a block on one or multiple metabolic pathways causing one's immune system, systems/organs to have to detoxify too much and causing slowed pathway or block. Ex: oxalate dumping thread and info for example, peroxynitirate, ammonia, etc.
    Or an accumulation of it all.

    Studying the DNA genome/epigenetics is something I am interested in so long it is highly relevant to me and it yields consistent results.

    upload_2016-8-6_15-48-37.png
    upload_2016-8-6_15-49-6.png
    upload_2016-8-6_15-49-29.png
    upload_2016-8-6_15-50-22.png

    Regarding my OAT, I am confused as to why my Methylmalonate is low if I have the methylation markers that I have with HDRI. Rich and a few others state how high MMA is indicative of lower functional b12. It also states it on the Genova's organic acids interpretation pdf. Is this from dysbiosis and the bacteria making b12?

    Anyways, I am relatively new at analyzing SNPs, study of epigenetics, interpreting tests and nutrigenomics. I am still working on restoring my gut/detoxing/keystones with fermented foods, pre/probiotics, eating a diverse, low oxalate diet. More antioxidants, fodmaps, homemade fermented foods, water kefir. Hopefully more kraut soon.

    Heavy metals, hair/blood/urine:
    Ca, copper, mg high. Avoiding vit. c because of copper/oxalate.
    harmful metals:
    Silver is very high. Not sure how, haven't looked into this.

    CDSA

    upload_2016-8-6_22-47-38.png

    How much of focus should I put on the Kreb's cycle after having dysbiosis/yeast/poor health?
    And how would one go about reducing uric acid/salvaging purines.

    thanks everyone
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2016
  2. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Peace,

    Yow, You've got a lot of test results, symptoms, and info. here.
    This is what we have to do on our own.
    Good going!

    There are many people here who can help with SNPs.
    ( They don't look too bad.)

    I don't know about the HDRI results, other than your folate metabolism isn't functioning well. Maybe @caledonia understands this.

    You have Ankylosing Spondylitis (AS), a painful type of arthritis. ( I've been wondering if I have it because of the symptoms, especially lower back pain. Sacroiliitis. I just tested negative for the HLA- B27 snp, so don't know, probably don't.)

    Do you go to the http://kickas.org/ site? I've been lurking there because of the association between AS and Klebsiella pneumoniae overgrowth.

    K. pneumoniae can be a real jerk if overgrown. It produces d-lactate, ferments lactose in a bad way, and, as you know, can cause a lot of pain and fatigue.

    It's commonly found to be elevated in dysbiosis.

    I suspect it's been causing some of my issues, such as nerve pain and arthritis.

    I'm trying a very low starch diet now, with lower carb., semi- ketogenic. Two weeks in, pain is much lower.
    It seems that some microbes need to be starved.
     
  3. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    There is just too much data in your post. People on the forum have limited energy and brain power and you are asking them to make too much effort.

    If you did a bit more analysis yourself, prioritised and asked more targeted questions you are likely to get more responses.
     
    vortex likes this.
  4. Peace

    Peace

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    Hi,
    it's in the late hours here, just want to reply before I head off to bed.

    Yeah, I have done quite a few lab tests as of late.
    6 lab tests early in March-April; CDSA, biohealth 401#h, SIBO breathe, genova OAT, CMP/CBC/TSH/blood chemistry panel/etc, dutch hormonal test. 23andme was from a few years ago.

    2 more around June I believe which are the HDRI and quicksilver heavy metals test.

    I'm a late bloomer or late to the party in terms of functional health and looking at deeper issues through science (genetic testing, labs, proven results from postulation, pubmed,etc). Formerly, I was guessing and using a mathematical approach of copying, remembering and repeating patterns/logarithm then seeing if it works on me. Disaster. I never had that educational background, terrible at school, though it appears like being sick correlates with lower brain capacity, mental alertness/focus for retaining info. Also sick all my life, didn't get that nourishment, good beneficial bacteria; not breastfed/c-section birth, S.A.Diet, depression, high stress/anxiety, high inflammation and serious diseases and health implication going forward. No one taught me or told me what to do anything regarding diet, supplementation or digging deep into research. Wasn't pushed from outside forces or people. I did not have the motivation, drive and type A personality to correct my deficiencies in not only health but in life until now. Now I have a mounting set of problems with very few doctors/practitioners who I think have it all.

    Ok, enough sad, feeling sorry about myself. I am extremely disappointed in the current health care system. That's why I have to figure it out myself with of course help with others. Furthermore, I have to come with questions/concerns for my next appt. with my doctor that appt. is the only time I can ask questions and get answers...have to think. Based off my last 2 lab tests, I know my methylation isn't that difficult to solve; heavy metals may require producing more metallothionein, chleation, getting rid oxalates which may have heavy metals (bacteria infection?) binded to it. I don't know about that last part; I am lead to believe my nervous system and ability to heal/make blood cells is being impaired by oxalates deposits.

    Yes, my SNPs on geneticgenie are not serious I believe which leads me to that my issues are still deep into the GI tract and not getting enough usable vitamins/minerals/antioxidants and not getting rid of most of the the "nasty", overproduced chemical substances that are impairing healing. Stress, lack of sleep, systemic and outside infections as well. The oxalate issue, I wish I knew earlier. I have high uric acid, gout and terrible swollen, stiff joints. My former diet was high in oxalates; sweet potatoes, plaintains, broccoli and I used to juice leafy greens, broccoli.

    Regarding my SNPs;
    Fortunately for me, based off of other resources, MAO-A and VDR Taq are the only SNPs that i see as detox/methylation concerns. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    non detox/methyl..
    ABCrs2231142(A;A) for gout

    @alicec @Crux

    Reasons for posting:
    1. Need help in getting an analysis for the HDRI methylation panel plus my detox/methylation pathways.

    My opinion (from studying this for a few weeks) is I'm fine and need to focus on nutritional deficiencies and detoxing. obviously gut health as well.

    2. Second reason is about how I go about regarding supplementation based off the HDRI test results and SNPS?

    Is it pretty much straight forward and supplement using Fredd's b12 protocol, RichvanK and others?
    Supplementation for removing ammonia, peroxynitrate, aldehyde, nitric oxide, heavy metals. I've checked the search function and used some suppl. They have helped.

    martin Pall's antioxdants protocol based on his theory?

    Ok, that is all.

    I still have to correct my GI issues, hormonal imbalance, heavy metals, systemic bacterial/yeast infection and high oxalates/uric problems.

    For the GI, I think Grace liu and mrheisenbug have been the closest resources/template I believe for restoring the gut to what it should be but obviously everyone is different for dysbiosis. My current doctor put me on something similar to the biofilm protocol by Gesalt. Key differences was using an antimicrobial broad essential oils and SBOs. No resistant starch instead it was prebiotics. My improvement stagnanted and got worse likely due to herx and not supporting myself with nutrients. I felt better not going the route of killing everything in my gut; it isn't specific and wrecks on everything so I felt terrible. I already have an comprised, weakened immune system. Beneficial bacteria and select prebiotics have a better immune modulating effect and have multi purposes like growth of beneficial bacteria, displacement, SBOs like prescript assist secreting their own antimicrobials substances and some strains take root in the gut. D-lactate/histamine free probiotics or whatever species you can tolerate would help dysbiosis rather than using antimicrobials or antibiotics, imo. Diet is key, paleo, low oxalate, moderate protein, low fodmap and temporarily eating a low fructose or starch diet; just eat enough so your hormones don't go out of whack. Doing an elimination/low histamine diet has help a lot too. C. butyrium, infantis, plantarum, I don't know. VSL I tried them all and i think P.A. and d lactate free probiotics are well tolerated to me. They cause herx but it isn't as severe as antimicrobials/biofilms disruptors.
    Wouldn't jump into using RS2/eat RS3, inulin, psyllium husks, amazing grass which contain lacto. acidophlius/misc ingredients. Main take away from those 2 blogs is just to mimic healthy people's GI who weren't exposed to drugs, infections, heavy metals, environmental toxins, high stress/injuries, etc. Figure out what you tolerate and what you're missing.

    But I'm constantly looking for gems on this website like the oxalate ->yeast/collagen/low b6/low sulfate/Ca oxalate connection. Ways to increase GSH, metallothionein and modulate the immune system with something for the gut. Leaky gut and stuff like that. I want to end this inflammation started in the GI and focus on other stuff. There are a wealth of information and I need to know the tiny nuances which makes the human body work illness free/optimal. And those details are out there but hard to find. I doubt anyone wants to supplement themselves with probiotics, fermented foods, nutrients and antioxidants forever. I want knowledge most of all. The bottleneck of the human body. Treating from the root cause, working from the ground up instead of using band aid treatments for symptoms and secondary health issues, and so on.
    alright, good night. sorry for the bad grammar, jibberish
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
  5. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    Hi, you have a lot of stuff going on. Good to get the testing, maybe it can help sort things out.

    See my signature link for:

    Rich Van Konyenburg's HDRI Methylation Panel interpretation
    SNPs Interpretation Guide
    4R Gut Rebuilding Program
    You might be able to do some interpretation of the OAT with the Nutreval Interpretation Guide
    Andrew Cutler Mercury Toxicity /Hair Test Interpretation/ Frequent Dose Chelation

    My suggestion would be to work on things in layers. Trying to do everything at once will be too much.

    1) Start with the gut first. Take care of ACAT (relates to kidney stones) and do the 4R Gut Rebuilding Program. You already have the stool test, so you're halfway there. Get as far as you can with that. You have several dysbiotic bugs to kill off. You can't crowd them out with probiotics, you need to specifically kill them off with the right herbs/meds. Your test should show which ones are effective against your particular bugs.

    2) Then proceed to getting methylation tweaked.
    If folate is making your mental health worse, use SAMe instead. (per William Walsh)
    If you're having trouble see "Start Low and Go Slow" and "Roadblocks to Successful Methylation" in my signature link.

    3) Cold hands and feet - possible thyroid issue - you need a complete thyroid panel to diagnose, not just TSH. See the Stop The Thyroid Madness website.

    4) Then look at toxic metals. Use Cutler's info for interpretation. For some of the metals, what shows on the test can be accurate, but for mercury and some other metals, not so much. For mercury, it will usually show low on testing, so you need to look for deranged mineral transport to detect it. Note that copper can mimic the symptoms of mercury toxicity and cause a wide range of health issues, both physical and mental.

    If you need to chelate, follow Cutler's frequent dose chelation protocol only. Non-frequent dose protocols (basically everything else out there) cause redistribution which will make you worse. (learned this the hard way...)

    ps. I don't see any mention of essential fatty acids. If you haven't do so already, do an "oil change" in your diet. Stop using vegetable oil etc. which is high in the inflammatory omega 6. Eat a balanced diet of real food (no processed food) such as the Zone Diet which keeps your blood sugar in a zone of not too high or too low. Then supplement with Omega 3's such as pharmaceutical grade fish oil. All of these steps will help lower inflammation.

    It would be good to find a functional medicine doctor to assist. You might know more than your doc by the time it's all said and done, but they should be able to help with the 4R Gut Rebuilding and the thyroid, and at least be open to the other stuff.
    https://www.functionalmedicine.org/practitioner_search.aspx?id=117
     
    Peace and Crux like this.
  6. Peace

    Peace

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    @caledonia
    Thank you! Those resources and info were useful.

    1. ACAT snp for example scares me; http://snpedia.com/index.php/Yasko_Methylation "Yasko believes it will cause an increase in gut bugs (particularly clostridia) as well as elevated fatty acid metabolites."
    though I found an older thread where I have similar SNPs at the OP. One poster replied that this ACAT1-02 SNPs isn't an issue.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/what-are-the-symptoms-of-acat-issues.39603/

    more info; unsure of its validity without scientific studies;
    http://www.myquinstory.info/know-your-genes-the-acat-gene/

    I can see me still having dysbiosis, especially candida, we need them and they can't be eradicated. You may be right about my dysbiosis. My back though (ankylosing spondylitis) has been fine relative to before. I can actually jog, flex my toes/feet, raise my hands up without shoulder pain which I haven't done in a long time. I've been supplementing using most of fredds/richvk/pall. Looked at liver phase I/II pathways. Lots of b vitamins, b6, b2, b3 and biotin in particularly. I have been downing probiotics (prescript assist, sauerkraut, d-lactate/histamine powder probiotics, infantis, plantarum, reutri., even clostridial butryirum in AOR). With GOS, arbactogalactan, aronia powder are my go to prebiotics. No RS or inulin.

    I don't know if I can crowd out bad bacteria or even regrow species like the Oxalobacter formigenes for oxalates degradation, most lacto, butyric producing species, e. coli. Basically I believe I need more diversity from fermented foods (preferrably homemade), order oxalabacter or even FMTs.

    A good way to know, at least for me.. if my gut is fine or not if I am pain free, tolerate foods, fructose, complex carbs and how I react to supplements, vitamins, probiotics, prebiotics, minerals, etc. I can tolerate a lot of what I just mentioned. I got kidney pain from excreting uric acid or oxalates for the first time after using b6. I got depression from b complex, individual b vitamins. But it went away fast.

    What bothers and causes flare ups most is too much fruit, carbs and oxalates like sweet potatoes (yams which is the same thing), plantain, collagen peptide supplement, etc. I think uric acid and oxalate is a huge issue for me obviously based on my deformed joints/neck. Just moments after eating sweet potato; and my back is curved/hurting, i am not mobile and skin flaring. It is crazy how I was eating steamed broccoli, bone broth, collagen peptides, and at least sweet potato or plaintain Everyday.

    I want to do a FMT and eat homemade sauerkraut.

    Anyways, I am not thrilled what is going on right now and don't know what to do.
    anxiety and stress revolving around my Dr. and the situation. Looks like I'll be without a functional doctor for a month or possibly months. Words can't describe how disappointed I am in my M.D. I need to be aggressive with these glaring health issues and do a lot in so many different areas (methyl, krebs, gut, oxalate deposits, chleating, deficiencies, etc).
    I just didn't like how I responded to the treatment, how the root causes of so many of my health issues weren't in any way, shape addressed or treated and equally important the inability to communication due to their policy. I cant talk without setting up an appointment and paying.even when I afford it, it was tough to pay every time. I was in so much pain, discomfort. the treatment was not for me and i lost trust, faith. My back, joints and skin was peeling, reddened and proliferating/growing too fast a month in the treatment. I was still full blown inflammed.

    Health is so multifaceted and each case is unique. I was given a treatment that was probably used for others who had less severe, deeply rooted and prolonged illnesses. We're all unique and I obviously have to figure it out with help of resources and others like you.

    2. thanks for that info. Dr. Walsh is a true gem. Any more people like him to learn from?
    I don't relate badly to folate.

    3. Always suspected that my cold/hands had to be due to thyroid and hormonal imbalance, getting hit with EMF waves. I have anemia, low iron, ferritin and iron is needed for t3 conversion, so is selenium, iodine, zinc, gluathione, progesterone. I didn't supplement or get many of that because i react adversely to supplements when I have severe dysbiosis. And malabsorption.

    Lack of stomach acid - need b1, zinc, iodine, salt.

    And w/o HCl, no absorption of zinc.

    I made the error of not supplementing heavy.

    4. I read Cutler's protocol. I wanted to do the Ca-EDTA per heartfixer with my doctor but now I can't.
    "Ca-EDTA: Calcium-EDTA alone is infused over 10 minutes. With respect to metal removal, both IV approaches are likely equally effective, but here you do not receive IV nutritional support. We favor Mg-EDTA in individuals with cardiovascular disease/hypertension and Ca-EDTA in younger patients (or if time constraints preclude you receiving a three hour treatment)."
    http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm#Approaches to Detoxification


    How many mg's of DMSA do you use to start out?
    is 12.5 too low and can i jump to 100mg?
    I tolerate r-ala quite well and Cutler says that I shouldn't be using it before dmsa and it mobilizes mercury from the brain. Sorry, if i'm wrong about that.

    may just use cutler's protocol instead of edta infusion as you said.

    upload_2016-8-10_17-49-28.png

    My Dr. told me only Silver is in toxic levels and others are normal..
    I don't know how Silver is so high. Is it the flu vaccine I took a few years ago? I had a few flu vaccines throughout my life actually.. I had broken my tibia bone and had pins inserted for 3 months too. I never used colloidal silver, nothing in my mouth. .
    Interesting info about faulty results of metals test. Haven't heard of deranged mineral transport, will check it out.


    Is using the guide for this and supplement as needed? Should I be supplementing with ribose, b3 for high uric acid/salvaging purines?
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/uric-acid.34749/page-2

    too low to even list in malate, fumarate.
    upload_2016-8-10_17-30-18.png

    I get a lot of omega 3's. CLO, grass fed beef/ghee.
    upload_2016-8-10_17-39-52.png

    I badly need a cooperating functional doctor to address my joint/tissue damage, chelating, gut diversity and leaky gut.

    I may even want to order an amino acids test though I can order it myself.
    Don't want to do this alone even though I have to do the bulk of the research because Doctors. can't help everyone at once, may not even know and my severe case is so broad and severe. Just wish I had some communication and a more direct, aggressive treatment for my severe health problems. I'm getting old and have to speed things up.

    I'll look into that last link. I need to clear my head and decide what to do. This is too much.

    thanks again all
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2016
  7. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    Basically you just need some ox bile aka bile salts for ACAT. That should help with the oxalates. A low oxalate diet should also help. Your stool test shows 3 dysbiotic bacteria. Usually something like caprylic acid or grapefruit seed extract is a good all around anti-fungal for whatever bacteria you have. The stool test should list what will be effective against them.

    He is pretty unique in his field. Amazing database of 30,000 people's nutritional status measured. Dr. Mensah is his main follower.

    Lack of stomach acid - take betaine hydrochloride with each meal. Suspect adrenal fatigue. (adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism often go together). Suspect mercury toxicity.
    Malabsorption of supplements - this is why the gut is the best place to start with.

    EDTA chelation - very very bad idea. Cutler's protocol is best. Learned from hard experience. The science behind it just makes sense.
    Don't use R-ALA at all. Use regular ALA. Have at least the Core 4 supplements on board. Don't do the protocol if you don't understand it. Start very low and don't push the doses. I'm starting with 1.5mg of ALA and that is plenty. I may even need to go lower. It's a marathon, not sprint. Low and steady wins the race.

    Silver is an ingredient in dental amalgams.

    For the purines it looks like vitamin C would be helpful. Vitamin C is also one of the Core 4 for Cutler chelation. Livestrong says - Cherries (especially tart cherries), vitamin C, and mineral water with good sodium bicarbonate content can all lower serum uric acid.

    I can see here that there is a conflict between low stomach acid and drinking sodium bicarbonate water, which would just make your stomach acid lower.

    Like I said, this is a lot of stuff to detangle. Just take it one step at a time. Research each step thoroughly before taking any supplements. Start a symptom journal so you can keep track of what you're doing and what supplement is doing what (good or bad). It's possible that treating one layer which is a root thing may make other things resolve so that you don't need to treat them individually.

    Technically you could start with Cutler chelation, but if you're very debilitated, I think it's best to get your gut/methylation/detox in the best shape possible before starting. Then start with very low doses. You don't want to overwhelm your liver.

    I understand about getting older and the desire to speed things up, but it's easy to make ourselves worse, so in my opinion, it's always best to proceed cautiously. If it takes a month to find a good doc, that's a month you can spend researching and designing your gut protocol, and maybe a trial of ox bile and betaine Hcl, for example, so it's not really time wasted.

    You already have a couple of the 4R gut rebuilding steps in place, so you may just need to add an antifungal herb for the bad bugs and some betaine hydrochloride. Then avoid foods that make your symptoms worse - that's the diet part.

    Then you're already taking many B vitamins for methylation so it really sounds like you're farther along than you may think.
     
  8. Peace

    Peace

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    I can't live like this anymore, i need a doctor preferably in the bay area who can help or else I have to do it all myself.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2016
  9. Peace

    Peace

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    Hi caledonia, how's everything? sorry, i had to take a break and think about what to do.

    I still don't see the relationship between ACAT, bile salts and kidney stones problem or any problem related in medical literature; I think I'm fine with not supplementing with bile.

    Regarding using CDSA suggestions or antimicrobials:
    I've just completed a round of antifungals, biofilm disruptors along with SBOs. I also believe those disruptors i.e. interfase/proteolytic enzymes, antimicrobials while being so sick and inflamed were to strong and harsh on my body, and possibly my gut. I could only last ~5 weeks until I had to change the treatment given. I was already in a bad state but I flared horrifically that I couldn't even walk, spinal curvature, soreness/pain, skin. My Dr. put me on a protocol to remove biofilms, bacteria, yeast, etc for 3 months/90 days while using SBOs like prescript assist and another probiotic, containing bacillus sp. Similiar to gesalt's write up for biofilm candida thread minus the RS but with SBOs. I had done a broad spectrum of antimicrobials as well instead of rotating antimicrobials.

    I don't know what to make of that treatment; I had too many things going on. It is a smart idea to start with the Gi as you say. Hindsight 20/20, I should have restricted my diet a lot, supplemented nutrients that I could tolerate, add more detoxifying agents/supplements like arginine, ornithine, b vitamins while doing something about my adrenals/thyroid.

    I could understand your thoughts on antimicrobials/biofilms before moving on to other areas. I don't want to do it again or stay on that too long. IMO, I think diet and quick fix of your gut biome alone would quickly fix some fatigue, pain, and other symptoms, histamine intolerance, sensitivities, etc. Even before adding vitamin supplements, my fatigue went away along with some pain especially in the morning. It got far better when I added more probiotics and improved greatly again when I supplemented.. carnithine, b6, b complex, iron, vit. E, selenium, etc. Main thing that stopped me from supplementing earlier was that I couldn't tolerate most of those stuff and felt I was feeding the overgrowth or having it being properly assimilated like you say. I am very anemic and couldn't even tolerate small amounts of iron at the start. I probably needed lactoferrin.

    Prescript assist, megaspore, butyrium and histamine/d lactate free helped in the turn around but also caused a lot of die off/brain fog. Prescript assist is the best. caledonia, I agree and think not addressing diet, lifestyle, Gi issues stomach acid, bile/liver and dysbiosis first while trying to do anything else seems like best bet and first priority.

    I'm still trying to address those areas as well but figuring out other health issues, researching after 29 years of being sick mostly ignoring my health. I doubt anyone here has to do much dietary restriction or supplementation/tests like I have to do. Such a unique case. I was born with poor health, born via c-section, not breast fed, ate asian comfort foods/cuisine which was not healthy, parents cared but they were first gen. immigrants and didn't know better, still don't ("depression does not exist" "don't worry about your skin, it'll go away if you stop thinking about it" "eat everything, it's fine", etc). Unprepared for effects of antibiotics, trash diet, drugs, stressors, toxic and got sick a lot (respiratory, chicken pox, fevers). 10 years ago, alt. medicine was not known to me, our household and already in full bloom inflammation. I had to drop out out of school (a few times later on) and I realized I couldn't handle things if this continued and went into seclusion. Western medicine and my doctors growing up were like me and others around me in that they so negligent. I willingly took their word and prescriptions which made me more worse and vulnerable to being sick. antibiotics, vaccines, steroidal creams, hydrocortisone and not to mention environmental toxins we're all exposed to. Along with a sedentary life and depression. Healthy eating/nutrition was foreign to me and my family so i ate heapful of white rice with fried fish, bacon, sausage, fast food, processed snacks, "S.A.D.". Supplementation was foreign and I was taught it was not necessary.

    Enough of the sob story, I want this to be over with. Anyways, I don't see many issues with SNPs compared to some here; i.e. limiting mthfr snps. So, the snps related to SNps related to detoxing, crohn's, HMNT, SOD2, and others are what I'm concerned with may be more relevant.

    I need a break and to breathe. Find something else to think about and then figure out who around my area that I can see for these problems, what tests to get. I can do long distance case consult. I want more tests though and advice on what to look for in those test results. Treatment is so individualized and complex.

    I took one capsule of betaine HCl yesterday and my stomach/abdomen felt very warm from too much stomach acid already present and I had to drink a lot of water and lean back. Can't believe after having low stomach acid for so long/poor digestion that I don't need HCl. I used to take 5-6 capsules of betaine HCl in a meal and not notice a thing. I think using nutrients (and fixing my bacterial infections) for stomach production is a better option for me. Regarding bile production; adding taurine, cholesterol, fatty acids, choline may help.

    I don't believe i have adrenal fatigue as the dutch test shows. I have very high cortisol though and consequently low DHEA. Would probably supplement DHEA, pregnenolone and herbals. The extremely high cortisol throughout represents my current state of having all these infections, low immune sysem and slowed pathways. Constant inflammation, high C-reactive protein in serum and cardiovascular risk which runs in the family. Endotoxins, chronic inflammation is wrecking havoc on my GI tract, adrenals, thyroid, sleep and ability to heal. coupled with low serotonin.

    I do have hypothyroidism, it recently worsened with carnithine. Carnithine was so instrumental to reducing reducing swelling in my feet within hours though. I'm not sure how to treat thyroid issue. I have to get more increase thyroid supplementation or take medication. Last year, I had enlarged thyroid and I have to get tested for thyroid antibodies for whichever autoimmune disease. But this was at its peak or protruding/ most pronounced when I was juicing leafy greens, some cruciferous vegetables. On top of eating raw vegetables at the same time...

    At this point, I suspect anything and everything especially heavy metals. From my understanding, there are different forms of mercury especially those that are hardened somewhere producing gases. I ate fish (mainly salmon, then mackerel, halibut, sardines) every day which I've now stopped. I don't have silver or mercury amalgams, have my x-rays. I don't recall any incident where I was exposed to took in mercury, silver. Except for the flu vaccines i received a year ago.

    Are you still doing cutler's protocol? Does that treatment work and are you doing most of the recommended while chelating below? http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/chel...dy-cutler-protocol/general_guidelines_cutler/
    I can't do cutler's counting rules to which you are referring to.

    I'm on day 2 of Cutler's protocol and I have yet to notice any effect using 13.5-20 mg every 4 hours. I bought 25 gs of pure DMSA and DMSA Synergy. what is wrong with R-ALA?
    I'm very impatient but I'll take it slow and follow the rounds and ask the cutler group about my results. My Dr told me that my heavy metals was in normal ranges aside from silver.

    Thanks for the advice, I'll try more of those foods/supplements and extracts. I am doing better as far re: gout/uric acid is concern. I think the supplements were so helpful, VSL, probiotics, b6, b1, b2, magnesium citrate, calcium, potassium and taurine.

    I am not deliberated as before so I've already started chelating.

    it is very, very difficult to find a good practionioner, interviewing, consults, etc. I've search for some from the link you've provided already. I don't expect anyone to know everything but to be nice, open to communicate so long it's not intrusive and time consuming for them, i understand that people are busy and also that they identify/ treat the real cause, order the right test, etc. I am much more comfortable with more testing so I can study it.

    I'm taking too many supplements but I conceded that this is what I need to do and i have a high affinity for them especially the b vitamins minus folate. Waiting for my b12 or the right way to take b12. I don't like sublingual b12, i flare up using either hydroxyl, adeno12/methylb12. I was wrong earlier about being able to tolerate folate, b12. Same with ALA which I tried the other day and felt lethargic. But yeah, diet, rest and managing mental stress isn't enough. Here are some supplements that I'm taking that i believe are helpful.
    E-mixed tocopherols, selenium, dulse, liquid k2, ghee, cod liver oil, b complex, tmg, b1, b2, b5, b6, active forms benfo, fmn TMG, biotin, mg gly/citrate, zinc with copper, ca, potassium, heme iron fumarate, iron bisglycinate, C with flavonoids, boron, lithium, manganese, trace minerals liquid, blue algae, cq10, aminos powder/capsules, glycine, methionine, glutamine, taurine, lysine, ornithine, arginine, proline, tyrosine, serine, theanine, ashwagandha, charcoal/edible clay, ghee. It's early but colostrum and shilajit (someone mentioned this for oxalates) is comforting/therapeutic. Though I'm not sure if colostrum interferes with my beneficial bacteria/probiotics.

    What did not help by worsened and/or created an reaction
    lozenges of b12 (adeno/methyl w/ folate) and folinic, hydroxyb12 lozenge too, makes me itch, NAG,multivitamin, HCl, carnithine, milk thistle w/ phosphatidylcholine, curcumin, in any form, phytosome, extract, turmeric, (don't know why; histamine, detox, antibacterial); bee pollen, tart cherry, molybdenum, too much of any one prebiotics, inulin/RS from banana; causes soreness, (i think someone mentioned butyrate causes uric acid), lecithin, phosphatidylcholine complex, collagen peptides, broths, bile is too antibacterial the last time i took it, but that was roughly last winter when everything I think caused a reaction. It's a strong antimicrobial. Then enzymese that disrupt biofilms, digestive enzymes

    I still don't know how to go about using Fredd's protocol or any methylation protocol. My oat test shows normal functional b12 and low folate. I just have to experiment and find a proper dose of folate, b12's that I don't react adversely to. Again, I take so much at once that I didn't realize that sublingual folate/adeno/methylb12 and hydroxyb12 lozenges was making my skin worse and I even had kidney pain from uric acid/oxalates after using those 2 . Methyl donors like TMG do not induce an negative reaction.

    for the gi
    probiotics; VSL, s. boulardii, c. butyrium. have tried b. infantis, l. plantarum, l. reurti
    glutamine, b vitamins, slippery elm, aloe vera, colostrum liposomal I am liking colostrum a lot actually and surprised I am able to tolerate it. going to try it with shilajit. Tried shilajit today..supposedly pure Himalayan. I like it so far combined with ghee, CLO and honey.

    I am taking a lot of L glutamine, glycine, proline, some free form amino powders, lysine, serine, tyrosine, taurine, etc. I plan to get a Nutreval or an amino profile test soon.

    Malic acid, ribose, same aspartate; didn't take these long enough to find out whether they helped or not. Also unsure if whether I should supplement with BCAAs based off my OAT test,Ketoisocaproate, -Keto-ß-methylvalerate. OAT suggests a need for NAC. Should I supplement with NAC, GSH?Citrulline?


    I am ODing and stressing over everything. Trying to cover all bases but my head is spinning right now. i've been looking everywhere for cause of every issue. I've recently broswed the NO-peroxynitrate-mito replication, NMDA inhibition, b2 oxidative stress and oxalate threads. unsure how to go about supplementing or correcting Kreb's cycle/NO-ONOO-/mito dysfunction; I've been reading those threads and it's a mindbend. Soon to follow thyroid, oxalate and heavy metals group. I'll probably need to look at the RS thread since I'm using high dose probiotics VSL now which I react well to. Still using the same prebiotics. Based off other's research from pubmed, etc in the same thread; the prebiotics that that i've read that are best for bifido/lacto are still pectin, gos, starches, fos/inulin, flavanols, and other polyphenols in black tea, cocoa, aronia, elderberry, etc.

    6. Modulation of gut microbiota by polyphenols and the impact on human gut health metabolism and immunity
    "In the following section, we summarize the effects of polyphenols and metabolites from polyphenol microbial metabolism on specific aspects of health and immunity. After a human intervention study, Tzounis et al. reported that flavonols induced an increase in the growth of Lactobacillus spp. and Bifidobacterium spp. and they may have been partly responsible for the observed reductions in the plasma C-reactive protein (CRP) concentrations, which are a blood marker of inflammation and a hallmark of the acute phase response [30]
    4. Mechanisms of action of polyphenols on bacterial cell membrane
    "Gram-negative bacteria are more resistant to polyphenols than Gram-positive bacteria.."
    "Polyphenols, such as catechins, act on different bacterial species (E. coli,Bordetella bronchiseptica, Serratia marcescens, Klebsiella pneumonie, Salmonella choleraesis, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Staphylococcus aureus and Bacillus subtilis) by generating hydrogen peroxide [71] and by altering the permeability of the microbial membrane"
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0955286313000946

    too bad I can't take caffeine, cocoa.

    Re: tests

    I've viewed most of the interpretation of different OATs, HDRI, CMP/blood, CDSA (straight forward) and others. I have a lot to work on in regards to my thyroid and adrenals. I am going to test further with Nutreval (OAT suggests that I need amino testing and i prefer to know anyways), nagalase and NO, more functional thyroid tests, HLA, CDSA retest and ubiome later. any suggestions from anyone would be of help.

    Have yet to read or figure out who or what type of practitioner to see to be honest. This is such a painstaking and difficult thing to do. It shouldn't be this stressful. I do not necessarily need someone to meet local. In the meantime, I'll have to relax and try to find some gems that are relevant to my health conditions. I despise being sick and not thrilled with the whole system; I know i'm being vague but it's too much that I've already said. I don't want to stress myself out.

    Anyways, here are some tests; if anyone who isn't busy not faigued/ill and kind enough; please have a look at to see anything unusual or anything. Not asking anything specific but just whatever stands out or what feel is important that I have to address. Off the top of my head, I have toxic vit. D levels, I'm losing sulfate low succinic/malate. Would appreciate any lead.

    thanks everyone,
    Again, sorry for the long ranting and post especially for the ill and brain fogged. And for the grammar/spelling errors.
     

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  10. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    I'm doing all right. Still working on getting my magnesium levels right so I can do more chelation. I've only been able to do one round so far, so I'm just getting into this. I'm doing the Core Four supplements (vitamin C, vitamin E, magnesium, and zinc) plus milk thistle.

    Your copper is high on labs. My suggestion would be to switch to a plain zinc supplement without copper. Copper toxicity has similar symptoms to mercury toxicity.

    The Quicksilver metal test is a blood/serum test which will only show current exposures, not what's stored in your tissues. There could be a lot more or different metals stored in your tissues and fat.

    You need to be really careful with chelation protocols. That's why I said don't do it if you don't understand it. It's easy to make yourself worse with too high of doses, not dosing frequently enough, wrong form of chelators, not doing the additional support supplements, etc. So you're taking copper which is not good and manganese could be bad too if you're not deficient. I don't understand why your dosing is going from 13.5mg to 20mg.

    The Dutch test is urine, not saliva. I don't know if those results would correlate with a saliva cortisol test or not. If it's a good test, you're showing high on three points and low on one. There are ways to lower cortisol if necessary.

    If you need more work on your gut, and want something gentler, your test is showing grapefruit seed extract, and possibly caprylic acid will be effective.

    I'm not sure what to do about high vitamin D other than don't supplement with it, stay out of the sun, etc. It should go down eventually, unless there is something underlying that makes it go high.

    In general, it looks like you're taking on too much at once, not understanding what you're doing, confusing yourself and driving yourself nuts. My suggestion would be to just to stop and take some deep breaths. It's going to be ok, but it would be best if you could get out of panic mode and develop some patience and something more like a zen attitude.

    Understand that it's likely going to take awhile to detangle everything. Your body may not be ready for some things if you haven't done earlier steps. I really think you should be working with a doctor. At least someone who you can run ideas by so you don't hurt yourself by doing the wrong thing.

    My suggestion would be to try and find a functional medicine practitioner. They can help with the gut (the 4R Gut Rebuilding Program was developed by the Institute for Functional Medicine) and with the thyroid at least, and maybe more, like methylation, depending on what courses they've taken. You can find a practitioner at this link:
    https://www.functionalmedicine.org/practitioner_search.aspx?id=117
     
    Peace likes this.
  11. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Cambodia
    @Peace, whilst curcumin lowers inflammation, it can also lower immunity - just in case that's an issue with you. The big study on this is re immune response to parasites:

    http://www.nature.com/labinvest/journal/v88/n12/full/labinvest200890a.html

    (I think I have this Leishmania parasite presently, thus the interest.)

    I had ankylosing spondylitis 20 years ago, & fixed it mostly with diet. My ESR went from 43 to 1 & symptoms disappeared, never to return:

    http://howirecovered.com/john-m-ankylosing-spondylitis/
     

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