Glutathione causing anxiety/irritability

[Shanti1]

I have been struggling with difficulty sleeping and bad anxiety. I never even though it could be the glutathione itself causing this.

I'm glad you may have found the culprit. Something else to consider is that most liposomal glutathione is complexed with phosphatidylcholine, so that you get about 400mg of phosphatidylcholine per serving. I personally find that phosphatidylcholine makes me extremely irritable and somewhat anxious, maybe because it increases my acetylcholine production too much. If you aren't sure of how you react to phosphatidylcholine, maybe try the glutathione on its own?

 

[seamyb]

Does liposomal glutathione cause me anxiety? Yes. But usually only for about an hour or two. Usually when I get that anxiety it's a sure sign that in a few hours I'll feel great.

The doses I see here are crazy to me. You've reduced to over 100mg. I've been working up the dose from tiny amounts over months. I don't think I've ever taken as much as 10mg at once. I take tiny amounts several times throughout the day and it's probably the best thing for making me feel well.

It's powerful stuff, so don't be thinking that miniscule doses have no effect, they absolutely do. Even at these doses you can have negative effects for a bit, so it takes a lot of effort to work to a comfortable level.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Oh really? There certainly is a lot of stuff in this liposomal glutathione that I take! Which is always a pain.

To be honest apart from the anxious thoughts I've also been waking up at 5am and it feels like my limbic system is on alert because the smallest sounds wake me at night, plus my usual concoction doesn't work and I have found rather the concoction on my travels with Josh's protocol.

So good idea, can anyone recommend a decent brand of glutathione? I saw some on other threads - NOW are actually pretty good. But open to suggestions.

 

[Shanti1]

@godlovesatrier What brand do you currently take (not all liposomal glutathione has phosphatidylcholine)?

I am starting with 50mg of regular glutathione every other day (from Life Extension). I know that non-liposomal is arguably poorly absorbed, but it is part of my low-and-slow plan. I will be interested to hear what others suggest as brands. Phosphatidylcholine isn't necessarily bad, many find that it provides good cognitive and mood support, but for those who are reacting to liposomal glutathione, it may be worth determining if the reaction is to the glutathione, the phosphatidylcholine (or something else in the formula).

 

[godlovesatrier]

https://www.baldwins.co.uk/well-act...g&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=feed-google

Sounds like it does:

Avoid taking late in the evening or before bed as the phosphatidylcholine complex can be activating and cause sleep unrest.

Vegetable Glycerin, Purified Water, Glutathione, Sunflower Lecithin (containing Phosphatidyl Choline), Sweetener (Xylitol), Natural Flavourings (Blueberry, Vanilla), Stabilizer (Xanthan Gum), Natural Antioxidant (Vitamin E), Sodium Selenite.

It's funny because when I first took it I crashed and it made me so sleepy I got an amazing nights sleep...for about a week and then the reverse started to occur. At any rate that might appear to prove I do need another brand!

Yes that's what bothers me about the non liposomal ways, will they actually work at all?

Good luck though, hope that works, some people swear by the non liposomal forms anyway. I am not sure what brand @Learner1 takes.

 

[Shanti1]

Yes that's what bothers me about the non-liposomal ways, will they actually work at all?

Its a good question, studies seem mixed, but some say that non-liposomal can be absorbed:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25198144/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24791752/
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf501338z

 

[godlovesatrier]

Ah this is good. Well it's worth trying. Once I hear of a good brand I'll add it to my list. Shame about the phosolide choline because I am certain it was having a huge impact.

But I agree that a lower dose is probably plenty.

 

[Pyrrhus]

I personally find that phosphatidylcholine makes me extremely irritable and somewhat anxious, maybe because it increases my acetylcholine production too much.

If you're interested, various patient experiences with choline are described in these discussions:

Related discussions:

Choline Advice
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/choline-advice.46964/

Anyone know of any negative experiences with Choline ...?
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/anyone-know-of-any-negative-experiences-with-choline.55954/

Choline causes brainfog
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/choline-causes-brainfog.32629/

Why does choline cause me to yawn and feel groggy/sleepy?
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...ause-me-to-yawn-and-feel-groggy-sleepy.31045/

Choline supplement is working for me
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/choline-supplement-is-working-for-me.60088/

In my own personal case:

In my own personal case, a single dose of 300mg glycero-phospho-choline (GPC) caused temporary start-up effects of headache, weakness, worsened brain fog, worsened light/sound sensitivity, depression/irritability, preceded by a brief burst of energy and appetite loss.

Eventually these start-up effects faded and I was able to tolerate two daily doses of 300mg GPC without any problems.

 

[seamyb]

Purehealth liposomal glutathione is what I take. I bought it thinking I may as well try the expensive stuff to see what the effect is and then I can compare less expensive ones.

However, it is not expensive. A single dose takes me about two weeks to go through. And the benefit I get is very worth it.

 

[godlovesatrier]

That looks amazing stuff! Thank you @seamyb

I feel like asking you what else you take now maybe PM me a list if you've got the energy. I'll share back.

 

[Shanti1]

If you're interested, various patient experiences with choline are described in these discussions:

Thanks for sharing, I'm pretty much interested in everything at this point as I try to put my puzzle pieces together. Truth be told, I react to almost all supplements. Glutathione and/or NAC seem like a good place to start to see if I can build up a tolerance, given glutathione's central role in oxidative stress and phase II. Reading your experience inspired me to give it a go. Who knows, maybe one day I'll even work up to a phosphatidylcholine dose... ambitious, I know .

 

[SWAlexander]

Thanks for sharing, I'm pretty much interested in everything at this point as I try to put my puzzle pieces together. Truth be told, I react to almost all supplements. Glutathione and/or NAC seem like a good place to start to see if I can build up a tolerance, given glutathione's central role in oxidative stress and phase II. Reading your experience inspired me to give it a go. Who knows, maybe one day I'll even work up to a phosphatidylcholine dose... ambitious, I know .

Wouldn´t Q10, Vitamin C, Vitamin E. work for oxidative stress?

 

[sometexan84]

I would be careful w/ Glutathione and Glutamine, as these can increase intestinal epithelial cell proliferation.

Which means these cells grow and replicate faster. If intestinal epithelial cells are infected w/ Enterovirus, this could be a bad thing for you.

So you could be doing long-term damage, making it that much harder for you to ever recover... even if you don't notice any direct negative symptoms from taking these supplements.

Also, these can potentially enhance Chlamydia Pneumoniae infection.

I especially urge everyone to STOP taking L-Glutamine. I know it's touted as the best thing for intestinal permeability. But that's because it enhances the epithelial cells there in the epithelium. If you DON'T have ME/CFS, then by all means take this supp. But for us, this is terrible. If you need to improve intestinal permeability, there are other ways to do it.

This is theory.

Evidence to back up the theory: My Coxsackie Virus B2 titers shot up, super high when I was on L-Glutamine. When I stopped... it went back down

 

[Pyrrhus]

Wouldn´t Q10, Vitamin C, Vitamin E. work for oxidative stress?

Yes, but not in the same way as glutathione.

CoQ10 helps maintain mitochondrial function, and therefore counters oxidative stress in the same way as B vitamins.

Vitamin E is fat-soluble and therefore counters oxidative stress only in cell membranes. (Oxidative stress in cell membranes results in lipid peroxidation, which is generally harmful to the cell.)

Vitamin C is a water-soluble anti-oxidant, and therefore can work inside the cell, but it can't protect B12 through bonding or detoxify reactive metals through bonding as glutathione can.

I hope this helps.

 

[godlovesatrier]

L-glutamine always made my symptoms worse. So I second that. I'd feel like I was getting it had a mild tummy bug when I took it. I attributed that to an overgrowth of bacteria more than anything else. But this was 4 years ago.

Glutathione didn't though. I felt better on that one.

 

[godlovesatrier]

The purehealth liposomal glutathione arrived. Took some tonight 100mg. And noticed a strong effect for about 40 minutes. Felt drugged basically.

It's had an effect on my cold as well but can't discern if good or bad yet. Even so this stuffs great and the lactoferrin hasn't had a bad effect on me so far!

 

[bob800]

I had a very similar experience taking glutathione as the OP. I thought at most it would give me just a slight boost of energy, so I took 1g of plain glutathione over the course of a day. Within an hour, I felt 100% awake for the first time in over a year, and that lasted for an entire week just from the single dose. However, after the first couple days, I developed substantial anxiety and insomnia, which turned the whole experience from a positive one to very negative.

After the week passed, the effect finally wore off and I felt "normal" again (i.e. fatigued and sick, but no anxiety/insomnia). Like others in this thread, I am working on building up slowly from a tiny dose of 10-50mg/day. Hope we can have a similar improvement as Pyrrhus

Wouldn´t Q10, Vitamin C, Vitamin E. work for oxidative stress?

Vitamin E and Vitamin C supplementation is shown to boost red blood cell GSH: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0026049585900198
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article-abstract/58/1/103/4715823
Be careful taking large doses of Vitamin E as it can slightly increase risk of hemorrhage in healthy adults.

I would be careful w/ Glutathione and Glutamine, as these can increase intestinal epithelial cell proliferation.
Which means these cells grow and replicate faster. If intestinal epithelial cells are infected w/ Enterovirus, this could be a bad thing for you.

I suppose this is possible hypothetically, but I'm not aware of any studies that show proliferation of infected cells. (If you have one, please attach). On the contrary, this paper shows NAC supplementation can suppress Coxsackie B replication: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166354219304735?via=ihub

Another paper showed clinical improvement in CFS patients chronically ingesting L-glutamine and NAC: https://www.nel.edu/userfiles/articlesnew/NEL290608A08.pdf

 

[godlovesatrier]

Interesting. It definitely semi crashed me last night, it also made my cold worse...so I have parked it for the time being. Will resume it again. I think it might be great for taking a very over active immune system down, but not sure about others?

 

[bob800]

Does anyone have a hypothesis of why glutathione / NAC causes many of us generalized anxiety, insomnia, etc?

It just seems like the amounts I take have such a disproportionately great effect, it really baffles me.

I have also taken glutamine, glycine, and NAC by themselves, and did NOT have any negative reaction to glutamine. Only glycine and NAC (and glutathione) cause the tense wired feeling. This seems like the opposite of what should happen (i.e. I thought glutamine was supposed to be stimulating due to glutamate, and glycine calming).

 

[SWAlexander]

Does anyone have a hypothesis of why glutathione / NAC causes many of us generalized anxiety, insomnia, etc?

It just seems like the amounts I take have such a disproportionately great effect, it really baffles me.

I have also taken glutamine, glycine, and NAC by themselves, and did NOT have any negative reaction to glutamine. Only glycine and NAC (and glutathione) cause the tense wired feeling. This seems like the opposite of what should happen (i.e. I thought glutamine was supposed to be stimulating due to glutamate, and glycine calming).

This was also my problem. Here is some of the information I collected:
Glutathione Levels have a two-way reaction. Did you have a glutathione test?
The standard reference range for total glutathione in RBCs is 1,000-1,900 umol/L. Some clinicians consider levels in the range of 1,100 -1,200 umol/L to be “low.”

10 Natural Ways to Increase Your Glutathione Levels
Glutathione is one of the body’s most important and potent antioxidants. Antioxidants are substances that reduce oxidative stress by combating free radicals in the body.
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-to-increase-glutathione

Commonalities Between Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Depression, and Insomnia:
https://www.clinicaleducation.org/resources/reviews/commonalities-between-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-depression-and-insomnia/
also:
"Most recently, the expression of glutathione reductase 1 and glyoxalase 1, which are genes involved in antioxidative metabolism, were reported to be correlated with anxiety-related phenotypes. And oxidative stress. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3964744/