Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[Asklipia]

@JPV As soon as you are better, make your avatar perk up!

 

[JPV]

@JPV As soon as you are better, make your avatar perk up!

Will do...

 

[JPV]

@adreno, @mariovitali, @Sidereal

Here's another interesting bit of research that may give a different perspective on TUDCA. if I understand it correctly, it sounds like it may also be a useful tool for lowering LDS and reducing intestinal permeability...

Tauroursodeoxycholic acid inhibits experimental colitis by preventing early intestinal epithelial cell death.

Abstract
Ulcerative colitis (UC) is characterized by increased epithelial cell death and subsequent breakdown of the intestinal epithelial barrier, which perpetuates chronic intestinal inflammation. Since fecal bile acid dysmetabolism is associated with UC and tauroursodeoxycholic acid (TUDCA) has been shown to improve murine colitis, we evaluated the effect of TUDCA on intestinal epithelial cell death in a mouse model of UC-like barrier dysfunction elicited by dextran sulfate sodium (DSS). We identified the prevention of colonic caspase-3 induction, a key proapoptotic marker which was also over-activated in UC, as the earliest event resulting in a clear clinical benefit. Whereas vehicle-treated mice showed a cumulative mortality of 40%, all TUDCA-treated mice survived the DSS experiment during a 14-day follow-up period. In line with a barrier protective effect, TUDCA decreased bacterial translocation to the spleen and stimulated mucin production. Similarly, TUDCA inhibited lipopolysaccharide-induced intestinal permeability and associated enterocyte apoptosis. The anti-apoptotic effect was confirmed in vitro by a dose-dependent inhibition of both receptor-dependent (using tumor necrosis factor and Fas ligand) and receptor-independent (staurosporine) caspase-3 induction in HT29 colonic epithelial cells. These data imply that caspase-3 activation is an early marker of colitis that is prevented by TUDCA treatment. These data, together with the previously reported beneficial effect in colitis, suggest that TUDCA could be an add-on strategy to current immunosuppressive treatment of UC patients.

 

[Sidereal]

Well, like many other compounds it looks promising on paper, but the problem is that there are 1000s of things that have been shown to reduce LPS-induced intestinal permeability in animal models and almost none of this stuff pans out when used in real messy human diseases. In ME there's a bazillion broken metabolic pathways in the gut. There is no reason to think any intervention in isolation is going to work... or even not make things worse.

 

[JPV]

I realize that it's ultimately all just hit and miss but I still feel compelled to keep searching for anything that may help provide relief. I've had this condition for over 20 years and, for some reason, I'm actually more hopeful now than ever before.

 

[Sidereal]

I realize that it's ultimately all just hit and miss but I still feel compelled to keep searching for anything that may help provide relief. I've had this condition for over 20 years and, for some reason, I'm actually more hopeful now than ever before.

Same here.

 

[mariovitali]

So who has tried Clostridium Butyricum from the forum and What is the consensus? I tried searching the Forum for it and also Resistant Starch. Could someone summarize how people felt?

I am expecting CB in about two weeks time so it will take some time for me to give feedback but once i take it i will let you know.

 

[Asklipia]

Given that different bacteria influence different neurotransmitters via their toxins, take a look at this :
Bacterial Toxins and the Nervous System: Neurotoxins and Multipotential Toxins Interacting with Neuronal Cells by Popoff and Poulain.
It seems that clostridial neurotoxins could be at the root of all these problems.
Notice their role in Calcium distribution and glutamate (Hello Fake Folates).

Not much to do against Clostridia, except other Clostridia! I think we are on the right track.
Clostridium perfringens looks like a possible culprit.
No wonder that Botox is all the craze! It might work as the Sanum does, by providing relatively harmless pieces of C. botulinum to stimulate our defences?

Lots to do with lots of guests , always a sure sign that the Universe agrees in beautiful synchronicity.
Be blessed!
Asklipia

 

[adreno]

Yes, many Clostridia species produce botulinum, a known nerve toxin. Just to be clear, the Miyari 588 strain does not produce this toxin. And, as @Asklipia says, it might help antagonize the species that do.

 

[Asklipia]

I had missed this, including a very interesting post by @Vegas.
Interestingly DH has started releasing iron this week-end.

 

[mariovitali]

@adreno i hope you don't mind posting me here. I felt that the microbiome is a key feature of this thread so i decided to run an Text Analysis to 8553 PubMed Entries.

These are the most frequent terms found :


['microbiota', 'study', 'disease', 'gut', 'human', 'intestinal', 'bacterial', 'patient', 'bacteria', 'microbial', 'result', 'species', 'increase', 'association', 'inflammation', 'samples', 'effect', 'infection', 'treatment', 'immune', 'microbiome', 'gene', 'host', 'composition', 'health', 'role', 'cells', 'level', 'healthy', 'response', 'group', 'different', 'show', 'analysis', 'oral', 'methods', 'clinical', 'development', 'suggest', 'subjects', 'siginificant', 'reduction', 'data', 'therapy', 'fecal', 'changes', 'compared', 'including', 'function', 'mechanism', 'significant', 'found', 'factors', 'strains', 'system', 'important', 'review', 'probiotics', 'potential', 'metabolic', 'gastrointestinal', 'groups', 'recent', 'diversity', 'observation', 'investigate', 'present', 'activity', 'specific', 'community', 'new', '16s', 'risk', 'bowel', 'higher', 'use', 'identified', 'control', 'infants', 'humans', 'tract', 'pathogens', 'probiotic', 'decrease', 'high', 'communities', 'total', 'complex', 'diet', 'differences', 'mice', 'individuals', 'acid', 'microorganisms', 'evidence', 'understanding', 'lactobacillus', 'periodontal', 'among', 'number', 'chronic', 'demonstrate', 'finding', 'mucosal', 'cause', 'dietary', 'cell', 'resistance', 'several', 'children', 'prevention', 'ibd',...........SNIP]


So Inflammation is a topic commonly found within these entries. We then move to frequent phrases :


[('vice', 'versa'), ('lamina', 'propria'), ("peyer's", 'patches'), ('enzymelinked', 'immunosorbent'), ('magnetic', 'resonance'), ('gel', 'electrophoresis'), ('lymph', 'nodes'), ('gradient', 'gel'), ('polymerase', 'chain'), ('cystic', 'fibrosis'), ('checkerboard', 'dnadna'), ('16s', 'rrna'), ('eikenella', 'corrodens'), ('necrotizing', 'enterocolitis'), ('95%', 'ci'), ('proton', 'pump'), ('ulcerative', 'colitis'), ('bronchoalveolar', 'lavage'), ('ribotype', '027'), ('denaturing', 'gradient'), ('flow', 'cytometry'), ('terminal', 'restriction'), ('tannerella', 'forsythia'), ('parvimonas', 'micra'), ('confidence', 'interval'), ('akkermansia', 'muciniphila'), ('cross', 'talk'), ('national', 'institutes'), ('inulintype', 'fructans'), ('logistic', 'regression'), ('chain', 'reaction'), ('et', 'al'), ('mycobacterium', 'avium'), ('restriction', 'fragment'), ('sexually', 'transmitted'), ('fragment', 'length'), ('escherichia', 'coli'), ('faecalibacterium', 'prausnitzii'), ('tight', 'junction'), ('truncated', '250'), ('necrosis', 'factoralpha'), ('dnadna', 'hybridization'), ('treponema', 'denticola'), ('peptic', 'ulcer'), ('mesenteric', 'lymph'), ('enterica', 'serovar'), ('fatty', 'acids'), ('subspecies', 'paratuberculosis'), ('ribosomal', 'rna'), ('crevicular', 'fluid'), ('caesarean', 'section'), ('250', 'words'), ('shortchain', 'fatty'), ('matrixassisted', 'laser'), ('fluorescent', 'situ'), ('double', 'blind'), ('atopic', 'dermatitis'), ('operational', 'taxonomic'), ('porphyromonas', 'gingivalis'), ('avium', 'subspecies'), ('actinobacillus', 'actinomycetemcomitans'), ('saccharomyces', 'cerevisiae'), ('north', 'america'), ('tolllike', 'receptor'), ('root', 'canal'), ('twin', 'pairs'), ('fluorescence', 'situ'), ('mass', 'spectrometry'), ('situ', 'hybridization'), ('haemophilus', 'influenzae'), ('morbidity', 'mortality'), ('critically', 'ill'), ('listeria', 'monocytogenes'), ('middle', 'ear'), ('electron', 'microscopy'), ('pocket', 'depth'), ('hepatocellular', 'carcinoma'), ('peptostreptococcus', 'micros'), ('saccharomyces', 'boulardii'), ('root', 'planing'), ('pseudomonas', 'aeruginosa'), ('hydrogen', 'peroxide'), ('reactive', 'oxygen'), ('length', 'polymorphism'), ('serovar', 'typhimurium'), ('nonalcoholic', 'steatohepatitis'), ('gardnerella', 'vaginalis'), ('methanogenic', 'archaea'), ('african', 'americans'), ('immune', 'system'), ('mesial', 'aspect'), ('methanobrevibacter', 'smithii'), ('obstructive', 'pulmonary'), ('cesarean', 'section'), ('highperformance', 'liquid'), ('colony', 'forming'), ('poorly', 'understood'), ('tumor', 'necrosis'), ('irritable', 'bowel'), ('helicobacter', 'pylori')]

Notice the fact that Lymph Nodes, ulcerative colitis, nonalcoholic steatohepatitis, irritable bowel, immune system are comonly found.

Most associated diseases :



**********************************************************************************
Enter term : disease
window size : 3
min freq : 5
19:11:11.373298
**********************************************************************************
('ulcerative', 1793.2532328635089)
('recent', 541.6996459716866)
('pulmonary', 520.3166727424668)
('obstructive', 517.8851252919544)
('activity', 483.4073468684177)
('nafld', 449.2590420439453)
('pathogenesis', 448.1122419356345)
('ibds', 441.33259937056266)
('coeliac', 424.8747658827942)
('destructive', 377.28625706512855)
('kidney', 373.0662154483366)
('endstage', 340.16627623035345)
('bowel', 317.1739177825322)
('irritable', 301.6142328282185)
('alcoholic', 300.1386502180286)
('chronic', 299.06108612353796)
('risk', 297.5353802518765)
('association', 295.8244513368049)
('inflammation', 287.73398985419226)
('development', 286.120285382312)
('diarrheal', 268.85011756371637)
('neurodegeneration', 256.0447598350479)
('remains', 245.96393294777633)
('advanced', 226.37606574651807)
('ulcer', 218.1957736362355)
("crohn's", 212.41280075605965)
('coronary', 211.6791516837664)
('aim', 208.442548759162)
('peptic', 202.88257048272612)
('susceptibility', 202.83349944659295)


In case you see anything worth pursuing further please let me know

 

[adreno]

Well, I'm not surprised that most diseases associated with microbiome research are bowel related. But if you run the search again in a few years, I think you will find quite a few more neurological or immunological diseases there.

 

[mariovitali]

Well, I'm not surprised that most diseases associated with microbiome research are bowel related. But if you run the search again in a few years, I think you will find quite a few more neurological or immunological diseases there.

Actually there are, i just have to re-run with a more "strict" search. Here you go :


**********************************************************************************
Enter term : disease
window size : 2
min freq : 10
19:33:56.498006
**********************************************************************************
('bowel', 12489.554454335732)
('periodontal', 3887.973098057664)
('health', 3826.1570534433667)
('ibd', 3322.9012632318118)
('liver', 2811.0498988105846)
('allergic', 2596.706802151984)
('celiac', 1849.4717265426184)
('autoimmune', 1794.9321563706737)
('cd', 1765.1228131188975)
('states', 1249.5389189424445)
('ulcerative', 863.1276773555195)
('atopic', 773.9083473130283)
('including', 632.5091556614933)
('pulmonary', 503.1682811543436)
('activity', 457.14864208771246)
('ibds', 441.33259937056266)
('nafld', 433.85562556725824)
('crohn', 429.6212810899518)
('coeliac', 424.8747658827942)
('immunemediated', 392.27054009932766)
('kidney', 335.3946971335845)
('heart', 321.26363983971635)
('review', 287.3847822268716)
('diarrheal', 249.47540932587668)
('neurodegeneration', 233.85634811420823)
('ulcer', 218.1957736362355)
('severity', 215.7317304063688)
('multifactorial', 215.4611689856228)
('systemic', 213.3336313740407)
('difficileassociation', 201.89532736468655)
('irritable', 196.9695368959388)

 

[maddietod]

AOR contains "500,000 organisms" of clostridium butyricum; Miyarisan contains 180mg, per dose. Does anybody know how to compare these numbers?

 

[JPV]

AOR contains "500,000 organisms" of clostridium butyricum; Miyarisan contains 180mg, per dose. Does anybody know how to compare these numbers?

I found this information but I have no idea how to translate the math...

Minimum CBM 588 content per tablet
Standard Miya-Pro Tablets = Miyarisan Tablets - ≥3x105
Strong Miya-Pro Tablets = Strong Miyarisan Tablets - ≥4.5x105

 

[Asklipia]

@JPV You found a very interesting document. But this is to describe their product formulated for Europe. The tablets seem much bigger (round 9mm diameter) and you are not supposed to take more than 3 per day.

Time to buy some Miyarisan shares.

 

[adreno]

AOR contains "500,000 organisms" of clostridium butyricum; Miyarisan contains 180mg, per dose. Does anybody know how to compare these numbers?

180mg per daily dose (18 tabs), so 10mg a pop. Don't know what that translates to in organisms.

 

[maddietod]

I found this information but I have no idea how to translate the math...

I found this on your link:

Standard Miya-Pro Tablets contain Clostridium butyricum MIYAIRI 588 (CBM 588, guaranteed minimum 3x105 viable spores per tablet). Recommended daily consumption: 1 - 3 tablets daily. Quantity of tablets in container (330). Warnings: Do not exceed the recommended daily consumption. Keep out of the reach of children. Food supplements should not be used as a substitute for a varied diet. Contains lactose. Other ingredients: Corn starch, lactose, hydrated magnesium silicate, microcrystalline cellulose, magnesium stearate, sucrose.

I wonder if potency is the same? The maximum dose of Miyarisan is 900,000 organisms. The maximum dose of AOR is 500,000 organisms. If potency is equal, 10 small Miyarisan = 3 AOR.

 

[JPV]

I wonder if the 18 smaller tablets, in the Asian formulation, would yield the same amount as 3 of the larger tablets in the proposed European formulation.

 

[snowathlete]

Question for all the microbiome gurus: right now am having severe MCAS reactions to the point of almost not being able to tolerate any foods. I asked part of this question in the RS thread but now have a slightly different question.

If I was going to try a probiotic (right now not taking any and have tried many kinds in the last two years) would it be better for me to try Bifido Infantis (Align) which is supposed to help MCAS reactions or to try Clostridium Butyricum which is sounding like a miracle drug from this thread. I briefly tried Prescript Assist and had no problems with it but when my MCAS stuff got out of control, I stopped about 11 supplements including PA just to be safe.

Would love to hear any thoughts on this. Thank you in advance.

So sorry to hear what you're going through at the moment and I really hope things improve a lot for you.

Align isn't the best option because a) it doesn't populate the gut b) it's expensive c) it is sold in tiny doses much smaller than those used in their studies.

I'm not sure CB would be your best Orion (or option if you prefer to ignore predictive text) at this stage, though it could work.

In my opinion, if you want to try a probiotic then simply going by my own experience and the little I know, which may have no bearing on what you're going through at the moment, I would try a single strain bifidobacterium probiotic - probably Longum.