Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[trails]

@JPV thank you. I am currently taking 400mg of magnesium citrate per day, tons of omega-3 fish oil, eating prunes, etc. I've had this problem for a long, long time and its always been a struggle. I appreciate your advice, will take it under advisement, and will continue to read the other numerous posts on this forum related to constipation. In the meantime, I don't want my constipation issues to derail this thread. As it is, the thread already had to be split in two, once lol - I don't want to be responsible for needing a third

 

[JPV]

Got it, but just wanted to say one more thing, keep in mind that timing is important. If you spread the doses to far apart you won't reach bowel tolerance. 400mg doesn't seem very high to me, especially if you have a deficiency. I would easily take a couple of grams a day without having it cause loose stools but I spread it out all day long. If you want the opposite effect, you'll have to take the doses close together. Also, if you have any kidney issues you probably shouldn't be taking high doses at all.

 

[Sasha]

@trails's question raises an issue though, which is that for all of the various pre/probiotics discussed on the main thread, as well as here, it would be interesting to know what, if any, their specific effects are - or whether they're all having complex and multiple effects on different symptoms.

 

[Asklipia]

JPV said: ↑
I can't claim any authority on the subject but I believe that it's a soil based organism so I imagine that it's pretty stable. I don't believe that it requires refrigeration either. My bottle also has an expiration date of January 2019 so it seems to have a pretty long shelf life.
Brilliant! Thanks - that's reassuring.

Just take 12 at one go and you'll soon find out if they are alive.

 

[JPV]

@trails's question raises an issue though, which is that for all of the various pre/probiotics discussed on the main thread, as well as here, it would be interesting to know what, if any, their specific effects are - or whether they're all having complex and multiple effects on different symptoms.

I think that's going to be somewhat difficult, if not impossible, to determine since we're dealing with so many subgroups that respond very differently from each other to various treatments, yet alone compared to healthy people. You can see with Miyarisan that some people here have reported that they can only tolerate one tablet per day while others are taking up to a dozen.

 

[Sasha]

I think that's going to be somewhat difficult, if not impossible, to determine since we're dealing with so many subgroups that respond very differently from each other to various treatments, yet alone compared to healthy people. You can see with Miyarisan that some people here have reported that they can only tolerate one tablet per day while others are taking up to a dozen.

True - and if all of them have some general 'makes the gut better' effect that's going to do all sorts of things.

But I'm wondering about the likelihood that any of these acts like a drug, with fairly targeted effects.

I'm struck by the fact that a lot of people have reported improvements in OI - or maybe that's because I have OI and I'm focusing on that.

 

[JPV]

I'm hesitant to talk too much about my experience as my sleep schedule is completely screwed up right now and that always adversely affects my brain fog and energy levels.

I will say that it gives me some stomach discomfort, which I assume is a battle going on between different bacteria and I take that as a good sign. I'm still playing around with dosages so that may change things a bit as I get a better handle on what works for me. I went from 2 tablets per day, up to 4, then to 8, back down to 4 and now back down to 2-3. I should also add that I've also been on the Perfect Health Diet for several months and take a tablespoon of PS once a day with the Miyarisan.

I have a greater sense of well being and mental clarity, mostly in the middle of the day. Mornings and just before I go to sleep I'm not feeling any better than usual. Like I said, that could also be from my crappy sleep schedule. Either way, it's definitely been helpful for me.

 

[South]

Just to clarify my above post...I am in no way asking for medical advice. I know that most of you have researched the microbiome and associated topics in much more depth than I have. As such, if you'd care to reply to my post, I would appreciate your informed theoretical opinion.

@trails Like you, I'm also someone who suffers from the constipation type gut problem, not the diarrhea. Most studies on any supplement or Rx on IBS patients focus on those who have diarrhea. Frustrating for those of us with the opposite problem.

The C. Butyricum probiotic might be useful to fix a constipation-predominant IBS, but I don't think any study has been done...so we don't know.

There's only a handful of people here on phoenix rising who are trying the C. butyricum supplement, and it's so new, I haven't yet seen feedback from anyone on whether it helps constipation (unless I missed it).

I plan on trying the supplement, but haven't started it yet.

 

[adreno]

Every feedback I've seen reported looser stools with CB. Never heard anyone getting constipated.

 

[Sasha]

@trails, I'm reading 'The Good Gut' by Justin and Erica Sonnenburg (microbiologists at Stanford). In the context of discussing the various probiotics on the market they say:

In the search for the right probiotic, it is important to systematically try different ones until you find something that seems to work well for you. How can you tell? In the absence of symptoms that you are trying to eliminate, the biggest clue we have about what is happening in the microbiota is your stool. The ideal stool is smooth, soft, and easy to pass and comes out in one snake-like piece without any cracking, which is a sign of constipation. The lack of a splash means you are on the right track.​

TMI there, possibly, but I don't recall seeing that idea before.

On the main thread, @Sidereal (I think) said that Prescript Assist fixed her long-standing constipation in two days! But that's a discussion for the main thread.

 

[Sidereal]

AOR3 helped constipation too but messed me up, severely, in other ways as I wrote about on the RS thread. I am sure only people with severe ME or specific problems with strep would end up with those complications. I've heard from patients with milder conditions who tolerate AOR3 no problem.

Miyarisan product is incredibly potent compared to AOR3 so there is no value to taking the latter except its easier availability on iHerb, Amazon etc.

So yes SBOs had definitely helped my IBS-C. I did not notice any other benefits from Prescript Assist aside from that.

With Miyarisan every ME symptom was improving, that's what's so remarkable about it, until I developed frigging gastritis so I had to go off everything for now. Of course I did over a year of groundwork with RS and other prebiotics before taking this so for those coming to C butyricum with severe leaky guts etc. it could conceivably not work or make things worse, who knows.

 

[mariovitali]

Perhaps this is of interest.

Butyric Acid: an Ancient Controller of Metabolism, Inflammation and Stress Resistance?


Butyrate Suppresses Inflammation in the Gut and Other Tissues

In most animals, the highest concentration of butyrate is found in the gut. That's because it's produced by intestinal bacteria from carbohydrate that the host cannot digest, such as cellulose and pectin. Indigestible carbohydrate is the main form of dietary fiber.


Butyrate's role doesn't end in the gut. It's absorbed into the circulation, and may exert effects on the rest of the body as well. In human blood immune cells, butyrate is potently anti-inflammatory***.


Sources of Butyrate

There are two main ways to get butyrate and other short-chain fatty acids. The first is to eat fiber and let your intestinal bacteria do the rest. Whole plant foods such as sweet potatoes, properly prepared whole grains, beans, vegetables, fruit and nuts are good sources of fiber. Refined foods such as white flour, white rice and sugar are very low in fiber. Clinical trials have shown that increasing dietary fiber increases butyrate production, and decreasing fiber decreases it (free full text).

EDIT : I ran Butyrate through my software and noticed that it is an HDAC1 Inhibitor. Then i found this :

Butyrate suppresses colonic inflammation through HDAC1-dependent Fas upregulation and Fas-mediated apoptosis of T cells.

Butyrate treatment-induced apoptosis of wild-type T cells but not Fas-deficient (Fas(lpr)) or FasL-deficient (Fas(gld)) T cells, revealing a potential role of Fas-mediated apoptosis of T cells as a mechanism of butyrate function. Histone deacetylase 1 (HDAC1) was found to bind to the Fas promoter in T cells, and butyrate inhibits HDAC1 activity to induce Fas promoter hyperacetylation and Fas upregulation in T cells. Knocking down gpr109a or slc5a8, the genes that encode for receptor and transporter of butyrate, respectively, resulted in altered expression of genes related to multiple inflammatory signaling pathways, including inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS), in mouse colonic epithelial cells in vivo. Butyrate effectively inhibited IFN-γ-induced STAT1 activation, resulting in inhibition of iNOS upregulation in human colon epithelial and carcinoma cells in vitro. Our data thus suggest that butyrate delivers a double-hit: induction of T cell apoptosis to eliminate the source of inflammation and suppression of IFN-γ-mediated inflammation in colonic epithelial cells, to suppress colonic inflammation.

 

[Rand56]

Every feedback I've seen reported looser stools with CB. Never heard anyone getting constipated.

I continue to maintain softer stools on Miyarisan, with no diarrhea <as of yet>.

 

[adreno]

I ran Butyrate through my software and noticed that it is an HDAC1 Inhibitor. Then i found this :

Yes, butyrate is hot stuff. You will also find that it reduces ER stress and the UPR.

I found the following interesting as well:

Further butyrate potential

Besides the prospects of harnessing butyrate as a therapeutic for IBD, the results open opportunities in a range of other inflammatory, Treg cell–dependent diseases.

“It would be interesting to see if the findings apply not only to mucosal inflammation in the intestine but also to organ-specific autoimmune diseases such as type 1 diabetes and sterile inflammation,” said Shimon Sakaguchi, a professor of experimental immunology at the Immunology Frontier Research Center at Osaka University.

Mathis was less sanguine, noting, “There is more and more evidence that Treg cells come in multiple flavors and that inflamed tissues have their own unique populations controlling autoimmunity and inflammatory responses. It is not yet clear to what extent the Treg cells generated in the gut or systemically under these conditions will be able to perform all surveillance and homeostatic functions. Butyrate-induced Treg cell generation might work for some diseases, especially in the intestine, but not others.”

But Sakaguchi added, “Metabolites as well as environmental cues produced by commensal bacteria contain a wide range of immune modulators for innate and adaptive immune cells, so further detailed analyses will be needed to understand integrated immune responses and develop a measure to control the immune balance.”

“Regulatory T cells do play an essential role to avoid excessive inflammatory responses as well as autoimmunity. Therefore, the beneficial effects of butyrate could be applicable for the prevention and possibly also treatment of other autoimmune diseases or allergies—including food allergies—where Treg cells have been implied to be of relevance,” said Daniel. “With respect to inflammatory bowel disease it would be helpful to see specific outcomes in models for Crohn's disease vs. ulcerative colitis—whether butyrate is equally beneficial in both diseases.”

Ohno's team is planning to explore the role of butyrate and of colonic Treg cells in food allergy and to see if they can influence the experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis (EAE) mouse model of multiple sclerosis (MS).

http://www.nature.com/scibx/journal/v6/n46/full/scibx.2013.1310.html

 

[mariovitali]

..and as it seems Curcumin, TUDCA, Selenium and Resveratrol are all HDAC1 Inhibitors :

Curcumin :

The expression of HDAC1 on Raji cells were examined by mRNA, Western blot at 24 h various concertrations (1.6-50 micromol/L). Curcumin could selectively inhibit the proliferation of Raji cells in a dose- and time-dependent manner, with the inhibition rate being 52.47 %-82.18 % (P<0.01). The up-regulation of HDAC1 expression was observed within 24 h after the treatment with curcumin as shown by RT-PCR and Western blot

Selenium :

Se-methylselenocysteine (MSC), are found in selenium-rich foods such as Brazil nuts. Glutamine transaminase K converts MSC to methylselenopyruvate (MSP), and molecular modeling supported the interaction of MSP with zinc in the HDAC pocket. In colon and prostate cancer cells, MSP was a potent HDAC inhibitor. Thus, various dietary anti-cancer agents alter HDAC activity and histone acetylation status.

TUDCA

The expression of glut4, HDACs, and markers of endoplasmic reticulum (ER) unfolded protein response (XBP1, CHOP, ATF6) was examined in the gastrocnemius muscle fractions, and in C2C12 muscle cells cultured with ethanol, TUDCA, and HDAC inhibitors. Non-TUDCA-treated rats exposed to prenatal ethanol were insulin resistant and glucose intolerant with reduced muscle glut4 expression, increased ER marker expression, and increased nuclear HDACs, whereas TUDCA-treated rats had normal insulin sensitivity and glucose tolerance with normal glut4 expression, ER marker expression, and HDAC levels. In C2C12 cells, ethanol reduced glut4 expression, but increased ER makers. While TUDCA restored glut4 and ER markers to control levels and HDAC inhibition rescued glut4 expression, HDAC inhibition had no effect on ER markers

Resveratrol :

We could show by in silico docking studies that resveratrol has the chemical structure to inhibit the activity of different human HDAC enzymes. In vitro analyses of overall HDAC inhibition and a detailed HDAC profiling showed that resveratrol inhibited all eleven human HDACs of class I, II and IV in a dose-dependent manner.

And then this post discusses Sodium Butyrate and BH4-Tetrahydrobiopterin


Links :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16850746

http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/24/1_MeetingAbstracts/413.1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25538147

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24023672

 

[snowathlete]

I may try CB in the near future. It's one I haven't tried yet. I would definitely suggest people try single strain if possible (or at least single genus) when it comes to probiotics; whether CB or others. it's the only way to really know what helps and what hinders.

 

[anne_likes_red]

@Sasha, let me entertain you while you wait for your Miyarisan.

 

[Hip]

@mariovitali
Doesn't your first study indicate that curcumin increases HDAC1 expression, rather than inhibit it? Or am I reading it wrongly?

Though this study finds that curcumin decreases HDAC1 expression.

 

[mariovitali]

@Hip

In the study that i quoted it may be the case that what they meant was that HDAC1 returns to original (=High) levels 24h after the last administration of Curcumin.

There are many studies which show that curcumin is an HDACs inhibitor.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25701602

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23430957

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23363995

http://pubmed.org/pubmed/22826883

The fact that Clostridium Butyricum and also most of the Supplements i use for my Regimen (Curcumin, TUDCA, Selenium, Resveratrol) are all HDAC1 inhibitors is not a coincidence i think. From what i read it seems that TUDCA normalizes Insulin sensitivity as well which can be yet another positive aspect for treating CFS.

 

[adreno]

The fact that Clostridium Butyricum and also most of the Supplements i use for my Regimen (Curcumin, TUDCA, Selenium, Resveratrol) are all HDAC1 inhibitors is not a coincidence i think. From what i read it seems that TUDCA normalizes Insulin sensitivity as well which can be yet another positive aspect for treating CFS.

It might not be a coincidence. But those supplements have been tried by numerous people here with little to show for it. Personally, they gave me perhaps a 5% improvement, whereas CB and prebiotics have giving me perhaps a 100% improvement (as in they have at least doubled my capacity). I'm convinced that the microbiome is the most effective tool we have for modulating the immune system, which is likely at the root of this illness.