Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[alicec]

I have two other secret weapons

Well thank you very much for that. I'll try some of the Brahmi. I have tucked away the Sanum Therapy in the back of my mind as something to consider but might have to bring it forward.

Things are not working out in any way as I had imagined they might and I definitely need to rethink.

 

[adreno]

Careful, Brahmi is a cholinesterase inhibitor.

 

[South]

Anyone, on culturing the C. Butyricum by putting one of the Miyarisan tablets into milk:

You don't have to add any other probiotic to get it to work, no lactobacilli or premade yogurt necessary. I did it with the Miyarisan tablet, some milk in my little electric "yogurt maker" appliance, and the result 24 hours later tasted and smelled strongly of butyric acid, which is what we want. The c. butyricum in the Miyarisan tablet "ate" some of the milk and made butyric acid from it.

No, I haven't started drinking this result, as I think it would be so strong that I'd be moving too fast increasing butyric acid too quickly. so, I'm still only taking tiny bits of the tablet each day.

I only did this milk culturing experiment to prove that the tablets do have living bacteria in them.

PS edited to add this: When I did this, the resulting milky substance did not taste at all sour (unlike lactobacilli-cultured yogurt would have). So, no lactic acid was produced.
(lactic acid is something some people want to avoid in probiotics, apparently)

 

[ahmo]

I only did this milk culturing experiment to prove that the tablets do have living bacteria in them.

This is brilliant. Thank you!

 

[alicec]

Careful, Brahmi is a cholinesterase inhibitor.

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that - maybe not such a good idea at the moment.

 

[Basilico]

Did anybody here start taking their C. Butyricum WITHOUT adding resistant starch to their lives first, and WITHOUT adding resistant starch to their lives on the same day that they first began the C. Butyricum?

If someone happened to start out in this manner, please let us know how it is going. (Even if you then later started using resistant starch)

I am doing this - I'll be happy to let you know how it's going when a little more time has passed.

My husband and I are doing our own probiotic experiment. We wanted to start with the probiotics first before introducing RS. He has IBS-D, and has a pretty messed up gut (which was paradoxically made worse after he did a round of Rifaximin to treat what we'd assumed was SIBO. It took him about a year to recover from the Rifaximin, which really left his gut wrecked. We learned later that it probably killed off all his good E. Coli, which was probably way too low to begin with).

We've been doing Mutaflor for about 3 weeks now, and I've just added the CB (I took 1 pill yesterday, and today I took 2). The plan is to be on both probiotics for a little bit, then add some resistant starch in the form of Bob's unmodified potato starch. Unfortunately, he just had to start taking some antibiotics to treat a sinus infection, which has caused him a set-back that he is not happy about, but at least we've got the appropriate probiotics on hand to help restore him once he's done with the abx.

I have an on again-off again romance with IBS-C. Lately, it hadn't been too bad, and upon starting the Mutaflor, my bowel movements were more regular (once daily). So far, that's been the only thing I've noticed. However, since we moved out of our apartment 2 weeks ago and have been abroad at my husband's family home, I am not really regular anymore, regardless of taking the Mutaflor. Traveling is always a trigger to get stopped-up for me, and it seems that not even the Mutaflor makes a difference with that factor involved.

As of day 2 of Miyarisan, I'm not seeing any changes yet. However, this is pretty typical for me, since I rarely react to any supplement or medication that I try (occasionally I'll feel better for a short period, then return right back to baseline).

 

[Gondwanaland]

Welcome aboard, @Basilico . You might find the discussion on oxalates useful as well, judging from you vit D levels.
Interestingly in my household the symptoms are similar to yours, DH easily gets IBS-D and sinus, and I suffer from chronic IBS-C when I am at home, differently from you.

 

[Basilico]

Thanks! We have both followed a low oxalate diet (he has autoimmune arthritis and has a tendency toward kidney stones) though neither of us noticed any difference from the dietary intervention. As a concept, I do find it very interesting, though, and I will definitely read through the thread you linked.

I always with there were a way IBS-D and IBS-C people could even each other out a bit!

 

[South]

@Basilico Yes, do keep us posted on how the probiotics go for both of you. I'm particulary interested in your experience, as I too suffer from IBS-C. (Those D people have completely different issues than we do!)

A side note: If you can get the doctor to write an Rx for the antibiotic to be in nasal spray form, and if you have a compounding pharmacy in your town who can make it, you can avoid the gut problems from swallowed antibiotics for sinus infections. I don't want to take this thread off on a tangent, just mentioning it.

https://www.umc.edu/uploadedFiles/U...ve_Sciences/Handouts/AntibioticIrrigation.pdf

 

[Violeta]

Is there a way to tell by symptoms the difference between increased production of acetylcholine and blocked acetylcholine receptors?

 

[JPV]

Why not try to let the body adjust? We had sleep disturbances for the first couple of months but now sleep very deeply.

Ok, I went back to taking 2 tablet per day for the last week, or so. Sleep is still a little off but not as severe as before. As you've said, it seems to be slowly resolving itself.

@Asklipia, @adreno...

Ok, so I've been using it for about 2 months now and the last 3 days I've been feeling pretty good. I rarely, if ever, have 3 days in a row where I feel this good. Did the two of you experience much relief early on or did it increase slowly over a period of months?

 

[Asklipia]

Now and the last 3 days I've been feeling pretty good. I rarely, if ever, have 3 days in a row where I feel this good. Did the two of you experience much relief early on or did it increase slowly over a period of months?

We felt pretty good before we started. We still feel good with some days off. Keep in mind that we are also on the Sanum protocol to reduce fungi and this has its ups and downs.
Before we started we had quite a lot of energy.
The difference now is how much we manage to achieve with the same amount of exertion.
Answer = MUCH MORE!

 

[JPV]

Everything that kills gram negative pathogens in the gut and therefore releases endotoxin/LPS will do this to you, the question is just how well the supplement works and whether you are taking a dose big enough to produce enough inflammation to jack up your cholinergic response.

If the following information is correct, perhaps the pathogens are disrupting production of acetylcholine and killing them off is putting things back in order. Any negative effects might just be a temporary overreaction that may very well balance and correct itself over time...

Mental & Nerve Dysfunction
Candida albicans can synthesize acetaldehyde, a toxic metabolite that causes cross-linking, damages organs, and interferes with the synthesis of acetylcholine and other neurotransmitters. This disruption of the nervous system can cause mental disarrangement, abnormal behavior, and memory loss.

 

[Violeta]

I have been taking these daily for quite a while so perhaps that is why I got a different symptom set from tiny doses of C.B.--loss of appetite bordering on nausea. Wonder that that is about?

It possibly could be that the nerve that the die off is affecting is your vagus nerve.

 

[Violeta]

Maybe folks who are having trouble with CB could try reducing other gut microbes first ?

Or maybe find a way to bind the LPS that the CB is creating so that it doesn't create havoc in the gut or get into the bloodstream and create havoc in other areas of the body. Has anyone tried bentonite clay or charcoal?

 

[paul80]

I don't have the energy to study and understand this stuff, but can someone please answer a few questions about this.

I'm supposed to take the Miyarisan with resistant starch because the starch feeds the Miyarisan, is that correct?

I don't have the Miyarisan yet it's coming soon but i have the resistant starch, should i just start taking the RS until it comes?

What dosage of resistant starch should you take?

 

[Violeta]

I'm trying to understand why LPS generated from CB would cause peripheral neuropathy. I understand the part about the CB causing bacterial lysing and the part about nicotinic receptors being involved in neuropathy. I just don't understand why the LPS is attracted to the nicotinic receptors in some people, and muscarinic receptors in other people. I also don't understand the theory about excess acetylcholine possibly being the cause of negative symptoms, except that I have seen that an imbalance between acetylcholine and dopamine can lead to dopamine deficiency symptoms.

Here's a study that talks about LPS, receptors, and pain, but I don't know if I'll be able to understand it.

http://www.fasebj.org/content/28/1_Supplement/661.10

I suppose that if it is a case of allodynia, it would have something to do with this: "Different cell types have also been linked to allodynia. For example, there are reports that microglia in the thalamus might contribute to allodynia by changing the properties of the secondary nociceptors.[13] The same effect is achieved in the spinal cord by the recruitment of immune system cells such as monocytes/macrophages and T lymphocytes"

Or it looks like the pain part of the problem could be because of something wrong in the nociceptors???

IDK, maybe the answer as to why the LPS is causing pain is somewhere in here, but what is even more puzzling to me is why is the LPS drawn to different receptors in different people???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodynia

I'm not saying I'm right, but I have been thinking that viruses are somehow involved. Here's a bit of information about post herpes neuralgia which, although we might not be having this symptom from taking a pre or pro biotic, might explain the peripheral neuropathy pain where nothing can be seen or found in testing.

https://books.google.com/books?id=YW9mAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA205&lpg=PA205&dq=nociceptors virus&source=bl&ots=P9meHOYspy&sig=Jm_PcNW-sNmpA5Anvg_pJYv4_aw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBGoVChMIo-ei4quPxgIVwzKMCh2BOAC9#v=onepage&q=nociceptors virus&f=false



Or why is it even drawn to receptors to begin with? I do think the gram negative bacterial endotoxins might contain metals, mostly copper and iron, maybe manganese, in the case of Borrelia b, I don't know about other bacteria, but would the metals be attracted to the receptors, or is it the lipids?

 

[Violeta]

Does anyone know if taking antibiotics, or pre or probiotics, can affect virus latency? Has anyone had a very obvious "viral" reaction to taking any of the pre or probiotics?

 

[Asklipia]

@JPV your senior member is upside down

 

[anne_likes_red]

"Mental & Nerve Dysfunction
Candida albicans can synthesize acetaldehyde, a toxic metabolite that causes cross-linking, damages organs, and interferes with the synthesis of acetylcholine and other neurotransmitters. This disruption of the nervous system can cause mental disarrangement, abnormal behavior, and memory loss."

@JPV - I noticed I no longer get nausea from a dose of 1000mcg molybdenum since I've been taking CB. Possibly helping 'detox' extra acetaldehyde?