Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[Basilico]

Today is day 5 of Miyarisan. I took 2 on the first day, 4 the next day, 2 the following day, 6 the following day, and 6 today. The 2nd day I had some toxic-smelling gas (which was a little funny, since usually my husband is the one stinking me out!). I'm assuming this means it's doing something.

At first, I thought that my sleep was improving (I had one night where I slept the whole night - highly unusual, and the next night I woke up for about 5 seconds, then fell right back asleep). However, last night was kind of back to normal (waking up, some difficulty falling back asleep).

Not really seeing any changes with the Miyarisan. I've also been taking Mutaflor (and an Align for good measure). Tomorrow, I plan to add some resistant starch. I have a RS question:

From reading chunks of the long RS thread, I gather that the general consensus is to start slowly (1/2 spoon of RS) and slowly work up to 2-3 spoons/day. However, my husband said something about it being problematic taking a small dose, because then it all gets consumed early in the GI tract by the wrong bacteria and doesn't make it to where it can do the most good.

Should I:
1) Still just start with a small dose of RS and work up to larger doses
2) Start with a smaller dose but mix it with some Miyarisan before consuming (if so, for how long should I let the mixture sit before consuming?)
3) Start with a bigger dose since I rarely/never have acute reactions to new things, so there is less of a need for caution.

Also, if the aim is to get to 2-3 spoons per day, I'm unclear whether it's better to spread them out during the day, or to take it all at once. Has anyone noticed a difference between these two strategies?

Off topic, but my husband has an appointment with a doctor here in Italy next week who specializes in treating CFS with antivirals. We got the apt just for him since it's pretty pricey ($250), but if we have a good feeling, I'll likely get an appt, too. Will be interesting to see what he thinks of the probiotic protocol (if anything), and how that may complement the anti-virals.

 

[Snowdrop]

Hi @Basilico

From reading chunks of the long RS thread, I gather that the general consensus is to start slowly (1/2 spoon of RS) and slowly work up to 2-3 spoons/day. However, my husband said something about it being problematic taking a small dose, because then it all gets consumed early in the GI tract by the wrong bacteria and doesn't make it to where it can do the most good.

Should I:
1) Still just start with a small dose of RS and work up to larger doses
2) Start with a smaller dose but mix it with some Miyarisan before consuming (if so, for how long should I let the mixture sit before consuming?)
3) Start with a bigger dose since I rarely/never have acute reactions to new things, so there is less of a need for caution.

Also, if the aim is to get to 2-3 spoons per day, I'm unclear whether it's better to spread them out during the day, or to take it all at once. Has anyone noticed a difference between these two strategies?

That really is the question. I've been reading and re-reading this thread and the RS thread. In one of the links on RS it suggests that you need at least 20g minimum / dose-- thats ~4 tsp. Maybe the recommendation is based on people without ME and therefore not accurate? I'm not overly reactive to things mostly so perhaps I'll work up to that amount over a few days.

Also, I read somewhere (I really need to remember to take notes), that the RS protocol should come first and then the CB.
Is this mostly what people have been doing? Or have most been doing both together?

I apologise if this has been discussed already. I have read from the beginning (and restarted) but am not all the way through the threads.
Note to self: must make notes!

 

[jstefl]

I started on the RS about 18 months ago. I just started on the CB just a couple of weeks ago, mostly because I had not heard of the Miyarisan previously.

Each persons tolerance seems to be different, so there are no hard and fast rules. From my personal experience, they both had a large enough effect on me that I would definitely not want to do both at the same time. I found the RS to be very helpful, but also very messy. As those pesky undesirable bacteria die off, they produce some pretty nasty gas.

My advice, and what I would do if I were starting over knowing what I know now, would be to start with the RS in a moderate dose, and work your way up until you can take it in large doses without having an effect. Then you can start the CB in very small amounts. I was really surprised how much of an effect the CB had on my system, even after almost a year and a half taking various forms of RS. I still can't take one CB tablet every day without a break now and then. I can still feel my stomach and colon churning a few hours after I take it.

This will not be a quick fix. Be patient, results will come in time.

John

 

[Asklipia]

I think that if people want to talk about dosage they should indicate if they are taking the small Miyarisan tablets or the large ones. I don't think I could cut in four the small ones I am taking!

 

[Sushi]

I don't think I could cut in four the small ones I am taking!

I have the small ones and was surprised at how cleanly they cut into 4 with a good pill cutter.

 

[alicec]

However, my husband said something about it being problematic taking a small dose, because then it all gets consumed early in the GI tract by the wrong bacteria and doesn't make it to where it can do the most good.

This idea was promoted by relatively healthy people and is a theory. If you have CFS/ME then things may be very different.

Many of us who tried the raw potato starch found it intolerable in even small amounts. Starting with small doses is a wise precaution until you can gauge your own response. Many of us on the RS thread found that dietary souces (eg cooked and cooled rice and potatoes) were the most tolerable form.

Even the most enthusiastic of the PS promoters cautioned that it should not be taken in isolation but rather as part of a mix of prebiotic fibres.

Also, if the aim is to get to 2-3 spoons per day, I'm unclear whether it's better to spread them out during the day, or to take it all at once. Has anyone noticed a difference between these two strategies?

People who were able to tolerate the bigger doses found different things. This is something you would have to work out for yourself.

 

[Basilico]

Thanks to everyone for their responses.

I have another general question.

I'm unclear about why starting the RS before CB or other probiotic would be preferable or advisable, instead of taking the probiotic bacteria first, and then feed them with RS.

The way I see it, a gut with dysbiosis is like a garden plot overgrown with weeds, to the point that the weeds are killing the plants you are trying to grow because they suffocate them and steal resources. With this metaphor, doing the RS first would be like using fertilizer on the garden plot overrun with weeds before weeding it, then trying to remove the weeds and plant seeds of the plants you want to grow.

In this situation I would expect my plants to grow, but the weeds to grow even more and it would be even harder to eradicate them later on. On the other hand, "sowing" the gut first with good bacteria like CB, E. Coli Nissle, etc, would be like removing some weeds and planting more seeds of the plants you want to grow first, and THEN fertilizing the plot so that the plants can grow.

Is there anything I'm missing?

 

[Sasha]

I think that if people want to talk about dosage they should indicate if they are taking the small Miyarisan tablets or the large ones. I don't think I could cut in four the small ones I am taking!

I've also got tiny tablets (the 630 in a bottle ones) and I've quartered them with no problem in the cutter.

 

[Sasha]

In this situation I would expect my plants to grow, but the weeds to grow even more and it would be even harder to eradicate them later on. On the other hand, "sowing" the gut first with good bacteria like CB, E. Coli Nissle, etc, would be like removing some weeds and planting more seeds of the plants you want to grow first, and THEN fertilizing the plot so that the plants can grow.

Is there anything I'm missing?

By definition, probiotics are supposed to selectively feed the good bacteria (is my understanding).

But many of us are finding CB very powerful. I'm not sure you even need to use probiotics to get an effect.

 

[Violeta]

Thanks to everyone for their responses.

I have another general question.

I'm unclear about why starting the RS before CB or other probiotic would be preferable or advisable, instead of taking the probiotic bacteria first, and then feed them with RS.

The way I see it, a gut with dysbiosis is like a garden plot overgrown with weeds, to the point that the weeds are killing the plants you are trying to grow because they suffocate them and steal resources. With this metaphor, doing the RS first would be like using fertilizer on the garden plot overrun with weeds before weeding it, then trying to remove the weeds and plant seeds of the plants you want to grow.

In this situation I would expect my plants to grow, but the weeds to grow even more and it would be even harder to eradicate them later on. On the other hand, "sowing" the gut first with good bacteria like CB, E. Coli Nissle, etc, would be like removing some weeds and planting more seeds of the plants you want to grow first, and THEN fertilizing the plot so that the plants can grow.

Is there anything I'm missing?

Back in the original Resistant Starch thread someone linked to one of the resistant starch bloggers who said that using resistant starch wasn't recommended for people with compromised immune systems. A compromised immune system would be a gut with messed up microbiome, and isn't that what you are describing? So I think what you are saying makes sense. I forget the details, and I recently went to find the post or the blogspot, but couldn't find either one. The thread is too long to reread the whole thing and I couldn't find it by searching.

Although it was mentioned in the original resistant starch thread that some medicinal mushrooms might be helpful when the gut is in a really bad state.

 

[South]

taking the probiotic bacteria first, and then feed them with RS.

selectively feed the good bacteria

Actually there are a couple of pretty loud voices elsewhere on the internet (not on phx rising) that say it's better to take probiotics first, if small doses of resistant starch have been causing too many problems.

Whether these people are correct is anybody's guess. They use the same logic that @Basilico does, about seeding the garden with good plants before throwing lots of fertilizer down.

Otherwise the fertilizer may just feed the bad bacteria (weeds). Selectively feeding good bacteria doesn't always happen just by sprinkling fertilizer, in my opinion (I wish it did, for everyone).

Still other people recommend slowly Stairstepping up with tiny bits of probiotics and resistant starch, but pausing after increasing one before considering the next increase of the other.

I'm not able to do a stool test right now to see which probiotics I need most, otherwise that would have been part of my plan too.

 

[Basilico]

There are just so many unknowns when it comes to gut flora, which is one of the reasons why I don't trust that RS only feeds the good guys - since at this point scientists don't even know the extent of exactly which bacteria are in our guts, or which ones should be there, and in which amounts they should be present.

Just because the good bacteria are more efficient at consuming RS, doesn't mean that if there is an overabundance of bad ones, they won't make do with consuming the RS if that's their best option and there is no opposition from other bacteria crowding them out.

If this were the case, it would make sense that if people were starting with RS first, they'd be getting strong side effects (the bad bacteria are being fed, gaining a bigger foothold). Then, with the introduction of the good bacteria, there would be an even bigger warfare as they are fighting against a stronger army of bad bacteria. This would explain why some people have strong reactions to the RS initially, and then strong reactions to CB when taken afterward.

Since everyone reacts so differently, there really is no way to know what's going on, and it could even be that taking RS alone is sufficient for those people who have certain gut flora balances, but it's better for people with different gut flora to supplement with the right probiotics before introducing RS.

Today is my day 6 of CB and day 1 of RS. I mixed a teaspoon of potato starch in a small glass of water and let it sit with 1 Miyarisan pill (small) for 1.5 hours, then drank it. I'm excited to see what will happen (if anything).

 

[Vegas]

@Vegas ;

I've been looking for causes of some of these symptoms I've been having as well as others here.
Many folks here have one or another type of IBS.
A noticable amount of people have had negative reactions to various probiotics. I don't doubt that the over production of d-lactate is involved. There could also be a shortage of lactate utilizing bacteria.

I just wonder if there are more possible causes to the painful reactions we're having when trying various probiotics.

Excess hydrogen is one, I think, because it can reduce the pH of the colon, and stop butyrate production, along with stopping other microbes' growth.( pathogenic and beneficial) We lose energy this way.

I've been reading about hydrogenotrophs, bacteria that utilize hydrogen, but, they include SRBs, methanogens, and, acetogens. As you've written, SRBs can be toxic. Methanogens are associated with diseases. Acetogens seem like they could be beneficial for producing energy, ATP. ( That's what we're looking for !)

These bacteria compete with each other for hydrogen, and usually the SRBs or methanogens win. We lose the energy that the hydrogen could provide.

Yes, I think you have some valid points. The accumulation of hydrogen prevents the oxidation of NAD(H) NADP(H) and this has energetic consequences.

My focus on SRB is based upon many factors, and while I do think the dysbiotic conditions in ME/CFS is likely marked by considerable species variance, I would point out to you that this hydrogen competition has definite winners and losers. If we look at kinetic and thermodynamic considerations we can see that SRB can outcompete those other organisms for H2, including acetogens and methanogens. (Acetogens are much, much less capable in this role, but the synthesis of acetate is as much a feature of other environmental /metabolic conditions.) SRB also exist in symbiotic relationships with methanogens that allows them to thrive without sulfate. So a lactate hungry, highly toxic liposaccharide-enriched, acetate oxidizing beast is a force to reckon with. Methanogens definitely carry roles in disease, but I'm looking at SRB as having a leading role, to the extent that one could prioritize these things.

Now, the competition for H2, however, is fought based upon H2 threshold. So the organism that gets the H2 is the one that can utilize the most miniscule quantities with robust growth and preempt H2 oxidation by other organisms.

But I guess the question is, if SRB are so effective as hydrogenotrophs, is there another commensal organism that has superior ability? Based upon what I have read, I believe nitrate reducing bacteria fit this bill. It seems the competition for H2 is based upon redox potential of the terminal electron acceptor. This would imply that microorganisms with denitrification capabilities are important to counteracting the effects of SRB. In fact, I think these species are relatively depleted across many different types of inflammatory diseases, but this is purely based upon metabolic derangements. These organisms are a subset of gram negative, proteobacterial commensals. In fact what we most likely lack are close relatives to SRB without the hydrogen sulfide, which of course inhibits cellular respiration and keeps the inflammatory response in check.

So you see that nitrate availability is what determines if they have access to sulfate. "In all scenarios tested, the SRB were able to initiate strong SO(4)(2-) reduction only when competition for H(2) inside the biofilm was relieved by nearly complete removal of NO(3)(-)." We know from multiple studies that SRB utilize host-derived glycans, mostly mucin, which requires sulfation. So, basically SRB are undermining your intestinal barrier. This is substantially relieved by providing complex carbohydrates, particularly mucopolysaccharides. Sources of inorganic nitrate will similarly be beneficial in curtailing this foraging. This is readily used by denitrifying species.

In fact if you wanted a burgeoning population of SRB you would restrict complex carbohydrates,consume large amounts of protein, and take ABX with wide-activity against gram-negative organisms. I don't recommend this.

Obviously this exists as a very distinct possibility for observed sulfate deficiencies, but these relationships have countless implications when you look at it as a key resource in the soil Nitrate availability enhances the bacterial synthesis of many other nutrients. It is illogical to think that the importance of these nutrients to micororganisms existing in soil or even marine ecosystems does not have similar importance to the same micro-organisms in the gut. Unfortunately many of these metabolic factories are broken.



Environ Sci Technol. 2012 Oct 16;46(20):11289-98. doi: 10.1021/es302370t. Epub 2012 Oct 5.
Interactions between nitrate-reducing and sulfate-reducing bacteria coexisting in a hydrogen-fed biofilm.
Ontiveros-Valencia A1, Ziv-El M, Zhao HP, Feng L, Rittmann BE, Krajmalnik-Brown R.
Author information
Abstract
To explore the relationships between denitrifying bacteria (DB) and sulfate-reducing bacteria (SRB) in H(2)-fed biofilms, we used two H(2)-based membrane biofilm reactors (MBfRs) with or without restrictions on H(2) availability. DB and SRB compete for H(2) and space in the biofilm, and sulfate (SO(4)(2-)) reduction should be out-competed when H(2) is limiting inside the biofilm. With H(2) availability restricted, nitrate (NO(3)(-)) reduction was proportional to the H(2) pressure and was complete at a H(2) pressure of 3 atm; SO(4)(2-) reduction began at H(2) ≥ 3.4 atm. Without restriction on H(2) availability, NO(3)(-) was the preferred electron acceptor, and SO(4)(2-) was reduced only when the NO(3)(-) surface loading was ≤ 0.13 g N/m(2)-day. We assayed DB and SRB by quantitative polymerase chain reaction targeting the nitrite reductases and dissimilatory sulfite reductase, respectively. Whereas DB and SRB increased with higher H(2) pressures when H(2) availability was limiting, SRB did not decline with higher NO(3)(-) removal flux when H(2) availability was not limiting, even when SO(4)(2-) reduction was absent. The SRB trend reflects that the SRB's metabolic diversity allowed them to remain in the biofilm whether or not they were reducing SO(4)(2-). In all scenarios tested, the SRB were able to initiate strong SO(4)(2-) reduction only when competition for H(2) inside the biofilm was relieved by nearly complete removal of NO(3)(-).

 

[Violeta]

I just found this while reading about EBV, does anyone know if it's a good or bad thing? The butyrate that their talking about is first sodium butyrate and then arginine butyrate.
"Butyrate facilitates reactivation of latent EBV by allowing remodeling of the chromatin-like structure of the EBV genome, through its histone deacetylase (HDAC) inhibitory activity [67, 68]. The recent discovery that butyrate and other HDAC inhibitors (HDACi) can also induce demethylation and reactivation of methylated, silenced genes through repression of DNA methyltransferase 1 DNMT1 [69] may also contribute to their activity in inducing EBV lytic-phase gene expression. Combination therapy using a chemical inducer of EBV lytic-phase gene expression (arginine butyrate) and the anti-herpesvirus prodrug GCV was first tested on lymphoma cells derived from the EBV-positive lymphoma from a lung transplantation patient."

Well now I see they are trying to bring EBV out of one stage into another stage so they can kill it, so to speak. I guess then I am wondering if the butyrate that is being spoken of here would do the same thing.

 

[Violeta]

This person says that resistant starch reactivates EBV, but maybe y'all already knew that. I have to add that it's strange because I wasn't looking for this. I was trying to figure out if I should go for the lysine or arginine and this turned up.


http://selfhacked.com/2014/06/27/homing-fundamenal-cause-epstein-barr-reactivation/

 

[alicec]

I'm unclear about why starting the RS before CB or other probiotic would be preferable or advisable, instead of taking the probiotic bacteria first, and then feed them with RS.

This is a variation of the microbe versus terrain debate. It makes no difference if the microbe is a pathogen we would like to get rid of or a beneficial species we would like to introduce either as an oral probiotic or as a faecal microbiota transplant (FMT). To focus on the microbe is to ignore the question of why when exposed to the same infectious organism, some succumb and some don't, why swallowing oral probiotics may make not one iota of difference to the gut microbiome (in my own case I still had zero lactobacilli or bifodobacteria despite having taken them daily for years) and why FMT often fail over time.

To make a lasting change to the gut microbiota one must focus on the terrain, ie provide circumstances which are going to allow the beneficial species to flourish. This includes providing appropriate food in the form of a wide variety of prebiotics. RS is only one of these and is probably not the best place to start for people with CFS/ME.

The people who have benefitted from CB on this thread have all spent a long time working on their gut prior to doing so. Whether or not simply introducing it in isolation or at the same time as a single prebiotic food would have the same effect cannot be answered but even Pasteur on his deathbed is supposed to have conceded that terrain trumps all. Personally I put my money on the terrain.

 

[JPV]

The people who have benefitted from CB on this thread have all spent a long time working on their gut prior to doing so.

I've experimented with RS a little bit over the last couple of years but I don't really take it regularly. I have however been on The Perfect Health Diet for about 8 months or so. Maybe that helped to lay the groundwork for the CB.

 

[South]

This person says that resistant starch reactivates EBV

@Violeta The way I read his page he seems to be saying the opposite, that resistant starch is helpful. am I understanding his wording correctly?
"The function of exhausted CD8 T cells in chronic viral infection was shown to be restored upon treatment with butyrate….Leads to higher numbers of CD8 T cells and mimics the effect of the pro-inflammatory cytokines"

He then includes resistant starch in a list of helpful supplements to take.

 

[Violeta]

@Violeta The way I read his page he seems to be saying the opposite, that resistant starch is helpful. am I understanding his wording correctly?
"The function of exhausted CD8 T cells in chronic viral infection was shown to be restored upon treatment with butyrate….Leads to higher numbers of CD8 T cells and mimics the effect of the pro-inflammatory cytokines"

He then includes resistant starch in a list of helpful supplements to take.

Yes, that's the paradox of it. He is saying it's helpful, but he's also saying it reactivates it. I had seen that in order to get to a virus you have to get it out of hiding, so I was wondering if arginine did that or not for EBV, it does it for herpes simplex (I think that's the one). So then I found this, and him saying that resistant starch reactivates, along with a few things that we know aren't good for us. But then I wonder if for at least some of us the malaise that we get when we take resistant starch is because we are reactivating the virus but don't have enough of something immune system wise to deal with it in the reactivated form. The last thing you would then want to do is take l-lysine, (which I almost bought last week). I'll keep looking at his page and see if he has any other advice.

Oh, I see further down that most likely a lot of those supplements will help the body deal with the virus. I was just too busy today to focus on the whole article. That answers a lot of questions for me.

Although then reading further down his page, a few more questions come to mind.

 

[alicec]

I have however been on The Perfect Health Diet for about 8 months or so. Maybe that helped to lay the groundwork for the CB.

The PHD is a great way to lay the groundwork. I rely on it too and have seen huge changes in my gut microbiota after just a few months.