Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[Gondwanaland]

The PHD is a great way to lay the groundwork. I rely on it too and have seen huge changes in my gut microbiota after just a few months.

I thought it would be too high oxalates with all the tubers and organ meats? Looking back I have felt the best when eating dairy, so I am eating cheese, curd, sour milk, cottage in hope to get some benefit.

@Violeta thanks for posting your EBV concerns here, it made me think that my current diet in focusing on lysine and perhaps that is the reason I can't get rid of a stubborn cough (supposedly bacterial?)

Do you guys know anything about this cough that remained after a probable oxalate dump by DH and I caught his bug. After the "cold" symptoms disappeared I would start coughing around 6 PM, and now at 9-10 PM. It feels like there is a cast aroung my lungs. I am sleeping well though, then in the morning I expectorate and it is as if I was cured. It's going on like that for about 2 weeks.

I can't decide if I should ask my dr for amoxiciline or what. Any ideas/experience to share?

 

[Violeta]

I thought it would be too high oxalates with all the tubers and organ meats? Looking back I have felt the best when eating dairy, so I am eating cheese, curd, sour milk, cottage in hope to get some benefit.

@Violeta thanks for posting your EBV concerns here, it made me think that my current diet in focusing on lysine and perhaps that is the reason I can't get rid of a stubborn cough (supposedly bacterial?)

Do you guys know anything about this cough that remained after a probable oxalate dump by DH and I caught his bug. After the "cold" symptoms disappeared I would start coughing around 6 PM, and now at 9-10 PM. It feels like there is a cast aroung my lungs. I am sleeping well though, then in the morning I expectorate and it is as if I was cured. It's going on like that for about 2 weeks.

I can't decide if I should ask my dr for amoxiciline or what. Any ideas/experience to share?

Just check here to see if there is any one remedy that matches a couple of the symptoms. http://www.homeoint.org/books4/boerirep/respiratory.htm

Then you look them up like this to see if there are other things about the remedy that match your symptoms. Forgive me if you already know how to use this.

http://www.homeoint.org/books/boericmm/c/calc.htm

 

[alicec]

I thought it would be too high oxalates with all the tubers and organ meats

No meat is high, tubers tend to be but I am selective - no sweet potato or yam and moderate serves of white potato (because cooked and cooled roast potato is such a rich source of RS). Things like rutabaga and turnips are low, cassava in the form of tapioca starch is low (the only form I ever see). Jicama is also low but I have never managed to source this in Australia.

 

[ariel]

I finally got myself some Miyarisan. Yay
I'm one of the ones that has also tried the AOR3, so didn't initially feel the urgency to try this, but finally curiosity got the better of me, and I'm glad it did!

I'm only on my 3rd day of 1 pill per day, and it is having definite effects on me. I don't really recall noticing anything in particular with the AOR3, though I was also making lots of changes at the time such as trying out various pro and prebiotics. But it would seem that AOR3 is a bit of a dud.

I can feel my sinuses draining somewhere in my head, and have had slight waves of nausea, plus frequent dizziness. The first night I definitely dreamt more, though don't really recall anything anything from last night. My face is slightly puffy, I guess from an overwhelmed lymph, so will now scale back and give it a rest for a bit. Was already pushing it taking one today given the symptoms yesterday.

What's interesting is that I don't feel that I had ever had these specific reactions to any of the other things I've tried so far for my gut. This seems very particular. And really exciting.
Particularly exciting in light of this article that was posted on Vegetable Pharm
http://vegetablepharm.blogspot.com.au/2015/06/got-ms-part-6-change-textbooks.html

It feels as though CB might just be helping the dural sinuses in the brain to flush or something.
Very interesting.

Thank you to everyone for contributing to this thread. @Asklipia for being so on to it! And @adreno, @Sidereal, and a bunch of others to say 'hey guys! check it.'

 

[ariel]

This is a variation of the microbe versus terrain debate. It makes no difference if the microbe is a pathogen we would like to get rid of or a beneficial species we would like to introduce either as an oral probiotic or as a faecal microbiota transplant (FMT). To focus on the microbe is to ignore the question of why when exposed to the same infectious organism, some succumb and some don't, why swallowing oral probiotics may make not one iota of difference to the gut microbiome (in my own case I still had zero lactobacilli or bifodobacteria despite having taken them daily for years) and why FMT often fail over time.

To make a lasting change to the gut microbiota one must focus on the terrain, ie provide circumstances which are going to allow the beneficial species to flourish. This includes providing appropriate food in the form of a wide variety of prebiotics. RS is only one of these and is probably not the best place to start for people with CFS/ME.

The people who have benefitted from CB on this thread have all spent a long time working on their gut prior to doing so. Whether or not simply introducing it in isolation or at the same time as a single prebiotic food would have the same effect cannot be answered but even Pasteur on his deathbed is supposed to have conceded that terrain trumps all. Personally I put my money on the terrain.

Totally agree. It is all about the terrain. Healthy people with healthy guts have been found to have all sorts of microbiota considered undesirable. The environment is what determines whether it is detrimental to health or not.

Re what to start when, there are no real rules here. It really depends on your particular gut. You might be fine with CB, but be laid low by something else. The only way to really find out is just take a small dose of something and then see if anything happens. With the preboitics, some can take quite a bit of PS, others hardly any.

There is one theory that PS is consumed more towards the start of the GIT, and so for that reason it should be avoided. However, after having tried a couple of preboitics that supposedly target the distal end, my reaction to them and the degree of discomfort was just as great.

I've given up trying to work it out!

 

[Sasha]

I read early on that you should take PS with psyllium to get it to the distal end of the colon.

 

[alicec]

I'm one of the ones that has also tried the AOR3, so didn't initially feel the urgency to try this, but finally curiosity got the better of me, and I'm glad it did!

My experience has been very similar. AOR3 didn't do a lot (2 or 3 per day) but within a few days of 1 per day of the Miyarisan I was getting heaps of lymphatic activity in the head. I've had to back right off, other things are changing too and I'm struggling to work out what to do. Will definitely be back on the CB soon though.

That study on the lymphatics in the brain has a thread on PR http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...system-with-major-disease-implications.37827/

 

[ariel]

That study on the lymphatics in the brain has a thread on PR http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...system-with-major-disease-implications.37827/

Oh thanks. Missed that!

 

[Violeta]

I thought it would be too high oxalates with all the tubers and organ meats? Looking back I have felt the best when eating dairy, so I am eating cheese, curd, sour milk, cottage in hope to get some benefit.

@Violeta thanks for posting your EBV concerns here, it made me think that my current diet in focusing on lysine and perhaps that is the reason I can't get rid of a stubborn cough (supposedly bacterial?)

Do you guys know anything about this cough that remained after a probable oxalate dump by DH and I caught his bug. After the "cold" symptoms disappeared I would start coughing around 6 PM, and now at 9-10 PM. It feels like there is a cast aroung my lungs. I am sleeping well though, then in the morning I expectorate and it is as if I was cured. It's going on like that for about 2 weeks.

I can't decide if I should ask my dr for amoxiciline or what. Any ideas/experience to share?

If you don't know if it's a virus or a bacteria, there are antiviral/antibacterial herbs that cover both bases without destroying your gut, such as lomatium. If it's a virus, also echinacea might help.

 

[Sidereal]

Just because the good bacteria are more efficient at consuming RS, doesn't mean that if there is an overabundance of bad ones, they won't make do with consuming the RS if that's their best option and there is no opposition from other bacteria crowding them out.

I agree. I think that's the main problem with broad-spectrum prebiotics like RS that feed a wide variety of species. It's all about preferential access to the substrate; in other words, what gets to it first.

This is why RS is probably not the best prebiotic to start off with if you have a severely dysbiotic gut like ME/CFS patients do. For people with milder conditions, as we've seen on various paleo blogs, many benefit from RS with no or only mild/transient side effects.

 

[Violeta]

Maybe for people with with severely dysbiotic gut colostrum would be a better way to start out. When you think about it, if you have inflammation or leaky gut, any toxins that are liberated by the action of the pre or probiotic might be more likely to enter the blood stream cause systemic issues. I am not recommending this brand of colostrum, but this site has the most comprehensive information about it.

http://www.sovereignlaboratories.com/info_WHATISCOLOSTRUMGOODFOR.html

 

[Gondwanaland]

Just check here to see if there is any one remedy that matches a couple of the symptoms.

If you don't know if it's a virus or a bacteria, there are antiviral/antibacterial herbs that cover both bases without destroying your gut, such as lomatium. If it's a virus, also echinacea might help.

Thank you again so much for reminding me of homeopathy this time... I just love the way your mind works, Violeta!

I haven't been doing well on herbs, I even react to chamomille... But I will do it homeopathically. I am seeing my homeopath in 10 days, will have to hang on till there. Can't get homeopathy here w/o a prescription.

 

[Violeta]

It's funny that you mention chamomile, it makes me weepy!

I see you mentioning so many things that help me, too. You're fortunate to have a homeopath!

 

[paul80]

Maybe for people with with severely dysbiotic gut colostrum would be a better way to start out. When you think about it, if you have inflammation or leaky gut, any toxins that are liberated by the action of the pre or probiotic might be more likely to enter the blood stream cause systemic issues. I am not recommending this brand of colostrum, but this site has the most comprehensive information about it.

http://www.sovereignlaboratories.com/info_WHATISCOLOSTRUMGOODFOR.html

That looks really good, do you think it can fix the leaky gut without die off symptoms?
I might try that before the CB.

 

[Violeta]

That looks really good, do you think it can fix the leaky gut without die off symptoms?
I might try that before the CB.

I hope so. It can cause a little bit of die off, though, so start low, maybe one capsule or 1/2 tsp a day. I quickly went up to a tsp two times a day, and now I can take a tbs twice a day if I want to.

It's worth it to get a good brand that isn't defatted. So far Immune Tree and Surthrival sound like the best, but I don't know where you live. Australia has a good brand, and I'm sure there are others.

I just started taking this yesterday, too. http://www.iherb.com/Source-Natural...1WYhm1vtWx2Nt7e9PjfTB0_eM3awOqm_ysaAnQe8P8HAQ

I had a big improvement in energy and sleep, but also my skin looks much less dry and wrinkled. I'm eating foods that I couldn't eat for a long time, too.

 

[paul80]

I'm in Scotland. Amazon has the Immune Tree one for £36. It seems worth it for the amount you get but the problem is if you don't tolerate it it's a waste of money. I'll give it a try anyway.

 

[Violeta]

I'm in Scotland. Amazon has the Immune Tree one for £36. It seems worth it for the amount you get but the problem is if you don't tolerate it it's a waste of money. I'll give it a try anyway.

I know what you mean. Oh, wait, I ordered it from Amazon, and the first order was reported back to me as being cancelled, the second order didn't ship after almost a week, so I called the owner of the company. He has set up a program to buy it direct from him at a reduced price because whoever was selling it on Amazon was messing things up.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Scarecrow we talked about dreaming before:
https://mrheisenbug.wordpress.com/2...h-prebiotic-fiber-improve-sleep-and-dreaming/

 

[Basilico]

Maybe for people with with severely dysbiotic gut colostrum would be a better way to start out. When you think about it, if you have inflammation or leaky gut, any toxins that are liberated by the action of the pre or probiotic might be more likely to enter the blood stream cause systemic issues. I am not recommending this brand of colostrum, but this site has the most comprehensive information about it.

http://www.sovereignlaboratories.com/info_WHATISCOLOSTRUMGOODFOR.html

I will take a look into this, thanks!

Update: I've been taking Miyarisan for about a week now and besides that one day where I had a lot of gas, I'm not noticing anything. I took 6 yesterday morning along with 2 teaspoons of RS. Nada. Today, I took 30 grams of RS with 4 Miyarisan and still nada. I do seem to be waking up less during the night; however, I'm even groggier when I wake up (I always feel exhausted and more tired when I wake up, but now I feel groggy as if I'd taken Benadryl). I do hope I experience something else, because so far this is quite disappointing.

 

[Sidereal]

@Basilico, do you have ME/CFS?