Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[Sidereal]

@Basilico, ever seen an autonomic specialist? It sounds like the sympathetic branch of your ANS is underfunctioning.

 

[Crux]

Yes, I think you have some valid points. The accumulation of hydrogen prevents the oxidation of NAD(H) NADP(H) and this has energetic consequences.

My focus on SRB is based upon many factors, and while I do think the dysbiotic conditions in ME/CFS is likely marked by considerable species variance, I would point out to you that this hydrogen competition has definite winners and losers. If we look at kinetic and thermodynamic considerations we can see that SRB can outcompete those other organisms for H2, including acetogens and methanogens. (Acetogens are much, much less capable in this role, but the synthesis of acetate is as much a feature of other environmental /metabolic conditions.) SRB also exist in symbiotic relationships with methanogens that allows them to thrive without sulfate. So a lactate hungry, highly toxic liposaccharide-enriched, acetate oxidizing beast is a force to reckon with. Methanogens definitely carry roles in disease, but I'm looking at SRB as having a leading role, to the extent that one could prioritize these things.

Now, the competition for H2, however, is fought based upon H2 threshold. So the organism that gets the H2 is the one that can utilize the most miniscule quantities with robust growth and preempt H2 oxidation by other organisms.

But I guess the question is, if SRB are so effective as hydrogenotrophs, is there another commensal organism that has superior ability? Based upon what I have read, I believe nitrate reducing bacteria fit this bill. It seems the competition for H2 is based upon redox potential of the terminal electron acceptor. This would imply that microorganisms with denitrification capabilities are important to counteracting the effects of SRB. In fact, I think these species are relatively depleted across many different types of inflammatory diseases, but this is purely based upon metabolic derangements. These organisms are a subset of gram negative, proteobacterial commensals. In fact what we most likely lack are close relatives to SRB without the hydrogen sulfide, which of course inhibits cellular respiration and keeps the inflammatory response in check.

So you see that nitrate availability is what determines if they have access to sulfate. "In all scenarios tested, the SRB were able to initiate strong SO(4)(2-) reduction only when competition for H(2) inside the biofilm was relieved by nearly complete removal of NO(3)(-)." We know from multiple studies that SRB utilize host-derived glycans, mostly mucin, which requires sulfation. So, basically SRB are undermining your intestinal barrier. This is substantially relieved by providing complex carbohydrates, particularly mucopolysaccharides. Sources of inorganic nitrate will similarly be beneficial in curtailing this foraging. This is readily used by denitrifying species.

In fact if you wanted a burgeoning population of SRB you would restrict complex carbohydrates,consume large amounts of protein, and take ABX with wide-activity against gram-negative organisms. I don't recommend this.

Obviously this exists as a very distinct possibility for observed sulfate deficiencies, but these relationships have countless implications when you look at it as a key resource in the soil Nitrate availability enhances the bacterial synthesis of many other nutrients. It is illogical to think that the importance of these nutrients to micororganisms existing in soil or even marine ecosystems does not have similar importance to the same micro-organisms in the gut. Unfortunately many of these metabolic factories are broken.



Environ Sci Technol. 2012 Oct 16;46(20):11289-98. doi: 10.1021/es302370t. Epub 2012 Oct 5.
Interactions between nitrate-reducing and sulfate-reducing bacteria coexisting in a hydrogen-fed biofilm.
Ontiveros-Valencia A1, Ziv-El M, Zhao HP, Feng L, Rittmann BE, Krajmalnik-Brown R.
Author information
Abstract
To explore the relationships between denitrifying bacteria (DB) and sulfate-reducing bacteria (SRB) in H(2)-fed biofilms, we used two H(2)-based membrane biofilm reactors (MBfRs) with or without restrictions on H(2) availability. DB and SRB compete for H(2) and space in the biofilm, and sulfate (SO(4)(2-)) reduction should be out-competed when H(2) is limiting inside the biofilm. With H(2) availability restricted, nitrate (NO(3)(-)) reduction was proportional to the H(2) pressure and was complete at a H(2) pressure of 3 atm; SO(4)(2-) reduction began at H(2) ≥ 3.4 atm. Without restriction on H(2) availability, NO(3)(-) was the preferred electron acceptor, and SO(4)(2-) was reduced only when the NO(3)(-) surface loading was ≤ 0.13 g N/m(2)-day. We assayed DB and SRB by quantitative polymerase chain reaction targeting the nitrite reductases and dissimilatory sulfite reductase, respectively. Whereas DB and SRB increased with higher H(2) pressures when H(2) availability was limiting, SRB did not decline with higher NO(3)(-) removal flux when H(2) availability was not limiting, even when SO(4)(2-) reduction was absent. The SRB trend reflects that the SRB's metabolic diversity allowed them to remain in the biofilm whether or not they were reducing SO(4)(2-). In all scenarios tested, the SRB were able to initiate strong SO(4)(2-) reduction only when competition for H(2) inside the biofilm was relieved by nearly complete removal of NO(3)(-).

I agree that SRB are highly toxic, especially because they rob sulfate and hydrogen, then produce excess H2S. They also tend to induce IBS-D in the organism, which can bring a quick death.

Methanogens tend to cause IBS-C, which can bring a slower death.

Both of these microbial groups steal nutrients. For instance, SRBs metabolize choline to TMA, ( potentially toxic), while methanogens convert TMA to TMAO, another potential toxin. ( A year ago, I was intolerant of choline and its compounds. Bad. Now that I've lowered the methanogens, I can benefit from choline use.)

I believe I must have also had excess SRB at one time, but I'm not sure how I lowered them. I no longer have trouble with sulfur foods, although I realize SRBs can growth without them. ( I did take several rounds of antibiotics.)

Nitrate and Nitrate Reducing bacteria look like an excellent way to inhibit SRB, methanogens, as well as other pathogens. Thank you for this information!

I began to take some high nitrate veg., such as beets, arugula, and celery seeds. Arugula is high in sulfur, may not be good for now. Beets are a great source of nitrates, but also high in oxalates and methyl donors. I guess we have to find what suits our own. ( I'm having some nice, dirty arugula from the garden.)

I did read that bacillus subtilis may inhibit SRB by producing antibiotics. ( It's in natto, and the probiotic 'Prescript Assist'.)

Nitrate Reducing Bacteria are interesting, because they utilize lactate. ( I'm already experiencing a lessening of what seems to be excess lactate effects. More time is needed.)

Since overgrowth of these microbes can inhibit production of butyrate, I believe that inhibiting them is a good way to improve the gut, and possibly make way for the introduction of butyrate producers, such as Clostridium Butyricum.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Could someone please describe what happens by taking CB that makes some of us so intolerant to oxalates?

Does the butyrate cause oxalate dumping?

Does the CB sinthesizes vit K2 and this causes oxalate dumping?

I am feeling so confuse and forgetful, I am afraid to take CB again and not know what to do next...

Should I draw a serious plan to reduce my dietary intake of oxalates so I can tolerate CB?

Is that what I am aiming by taking CB? Getting rid of oxalates?

Will lowering oxalates reverse my Hashi's? My hair loss? My tinnitus? My confusion and forgetfulness?

So if I draw a plan to lower oxalates will I tolerate CB better in a few months?

I know I need K2 badly but can't tolerate the pain from supplementing it. Couldn't tolerate the pain from CB either. But looking back exactly when I took CB I overloaded with oxalates in an unbelievable manner...

So if I take a CB tablet (will take 1/4 the next time 1x weekly) and watch my dietary oxalates will it work?

I know there are other people here that have been watching oxalates and haven't been able to tolerate CB for a long time.

Sorry for so many unanswerable questions, but I feel stuck.

 

[LivingwithFibro]

Does anyone here use Prescript Assist or Biokult? Is CB in those supplements as well?

Would love to hear your experience with PA especially.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ahmo]

@LivingwithFibro My first serious probiotic was Biokult, in context of GAPS diet. I used it for about a year, until I had enough brain power to find a cheaper alternative. I didn't have any side effects, as I recall, slowly worked my way up to something like 10/day. I currently use PA, alternating it w/ Orthobiotic from Orthomolecular Products. I'm currently using probiotics every other day, plus spoonful of yogurt, sauerkraut approximately daily. No observable side effects from PA.

 

[alicec]

It might have been due to a misunderstanding on my behalf then. Here's one of the actual quotes and source...

The problem doesn't lay with you! Setting aside the fact that the table itself is rather bizarre, it doesn't show what they conclude. Several genera in the table are shown to be at least an order of magnitude more abundant than Bifidobacterium - it couldn't possibly constitute 90% even on the figures shown.

 

[Crux]

First of All, @Gondwanaland ;

I think we're producing way too many acids as it is, so we can't tolerate any more acids. This seems over simplified, but, to me, it's true.

I had to stop all probiotics and fermented foods to get better. ( still not well yet...)

I also had to reduce carbs to ~70 gms daily. I don't go below 50 gms.

There was a long period of being intolerant to starches, but now I can have smaller amounts of potatoes.

I did take antibiotics for a time, but not everyone does well with them. I feel that I've been left with some excess d-lactate bacteria still. I hope being careful with diet will reduce them.

I wouldn't worry about taking K2 right now, since it causes pain. ( I wonder if it's mobilizing calcium from tissues,ouch.)
I've read that calcium can be precipitated into tissues in an acidic environment.

This article states that , i.e., excess oxalate inhibits the D-2-HDH enzyme. This enzyme helps metabolize d-lactic acid.
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/grp/2015/476215/

I don't know the relationship between CB and oxalates other than they increase the bodie's acid load. ( CB produces hydrogen.)

This can be fine for someone who can metabolize and utilize the acids.

I think we may just not be ready yet.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Crux

I wouldn't worry about taking K2 right now, since it causes pain. ( I wonder if it's mobilizing calcium from tissues,ouch.)
I've read that calcium can be precipitated into tissues in an acidic environment.

I took warfarin for 1.5 years. Plus my mother had calcium oxalate kidney stones, my father too just passed s kidney stone a few days ago, plus both my parents have high uric acid, so the thing is compounded genetic+environmental for me

 

[JPV]

The problem doesn't lay with you! Setting aside the fact that the table itself is rather bizarre, it doesn't show what they conclude. Several genera in the table are shown to be at least an order of magnitude more abundant than Bifidobacterium - it couldn't possibly constitute 90% even on the figures shown.

Yeah, I couldn't really grasp the table myself so it's good to hear that it's not just me.

On another note, I woke up feeling like crap today, so maybe it wasn't such a good idea to introduce the Bifido right now. I think I'll leave it alone for time being as I was doing pretty good with just the CB by itself.

The hardest part in figuring all this stuff out, is determining when negative effects are really detrimental and when they are just part of a transitory "die-off" phase.

 

[JPV]

Ok, kinda feeling a bit better tonight. Maybe I should alternate them every couple of days.

 

[Basilico]

This is an amazing problem. Could you be one of a kind? It sounds like a HPA axis + vagus nerve issue, and so does your husband's, but with some opposite symptoms. I think it would be a good topic for a new thread.

Do you remember your husband and you simultaneously having a flu or possibly an exposure to a pesticide? Maybe moving into a new house or getting a new carpet?

Do you have any symptoms of vagus nerve innervation (I don't know how else to say it) such as gastroparesis?

Ha ha, I could definitely derail this thread with all my weird issues

I don't have other vagus nerve issues that I'm aware of. After years of attempting a variety of interventions, we are both pretty convinced that our issues involve a trifecta of chronic viral infections (which we each had before meeting, then shared which would explain why we got worse after getting together), crappy gut flora, and methylation issues. I have a feeling that all the other weird symptoms have been/are somehow caused by one of these 3 issues.

Another example of my frustrating under-reaction: He and I did a super methylation protocol for several months. We both felt a little better in the first month, (though we were taking a ton of supplements, difficult to know which, if any, were responsible) then returned right back to baseline. After months of taking pretty big doses of L-methylfolate and methylB12, I don't feel anything at all.

I'm very confused as to whether I never had a methylation problem, or I had a methylation problem but fixed it, or continue to have a methylation problem but don't react to the supplements. If I have a methylation problem, I should either feel better or react really negatively.

@Basilico, ever seen an autonomic specialist? It sounds like the sympathetic branch of your ANS is underfunctioning.

I've never heard of this kind of specialist. It could be worth pursuing, but I've kind of given up on specialists, I can only be told so many times that everything's fine.

 

[Aileen]

The garden metaphor hits the nail on the head! Thank you Basilico and South, for bringing this up. IMHO, this is central to creating a personal road map in healing gut disbyosis. This crucial step defines what treatment approach to take. And there are many different camps here as to the approach and in what order.

IMHO, if there is an overgrowth of weeds, fertilizing OR planting new seeds will do little. Think about it. How much grass will grow in your yard if you attempt to seed it in it's present state of dense dandelions? There is no space for the grass to grow. And even if some blades of grass grew and found a way to survive, they will do nothing for reducing the dandelion spread. Eventually they will have no room to grow and die due to the over abundance of dandelions. Same if you added fertilizer, which at this point will only strengthen and make the dandelions grow faster. At least that has been my experience, based on experimenting with herbals, prebiotics and probitics. So, I've come to the conclusion on this new approach: Make space for the good bacteria by initially eliminate or at least reduce the bad bacteria numbers. Then re-seed (probiotics), then fertilize (prebiotics) in that order. This is key.

The question then becomes how to create space for new microbiome?

I am wrestling with this question right now. Since constipation is a major problem, I am afraid to add any pre or probiotic in case it feeds/colonizes something in or too close to the small intestine. I also would rather avoid antibiotics if possible.

I am wondering if using magnesium citrate (those nasty colonoscopy prep drinks) for a short while to flush out the whole system. I am hoping that in addition to a good clean out, perhaps it would wash out some of the gut flora -- enough so that the good stuff I put in and feed will actually become established.

Any opinions on this idea? Anyone tried this approach? I need to take the "next step" but I can't figure out what that is. Really getting confused and overwhelmed.

 

[Basilico]

So, I've come to the conclusion on this new approach: Make space for the good bacteria by initially eliminate or at least reduce the bad bacteria numbers. Then re-seed (probiotics), then fertilize (prebiotics) in that order. This is key.

Fortunately there is some good momentum on increasing knowledge on these bugs. Elsewhere, I received excellent information from the Great Plains Lab OAT test. Perhaps limiting since this test cannot check for the thousands of possible pathogenic bacteria species, it's still helpful for more common pathogenic bacteria. Here, I was identified with an overgrowth of bad clostridia (not to be confused with CB in same family), along with fungal indications, which is been the focus of my therapy. It gave me something to work with, factual data. The recommended antibiotic flagyl has been nothing short of godsend. Many of my GI bloating issues, IBS has been eliminated. And I say this under resentment of taking antibiotics due to the damage they have caused in my past history.

I also think that eliminating or at least reducing pathogenic bacteria and yeasts and fungi are really important. As you said, the problem is how to do it without digging the grave deeper. My husband did a round of Rifaximin, which is commonly prescribed to people who get traveler's diarrhea and is also widely used to treat SIBO; it is generally well tolerated and even though we are both wary of taking antibiotics, this seemed like the best way to deal with his worsening SIBO/IBS symptoms. It really wrecked his GI system and took a solid year to get back to a functional level.

We couldn't make sense of his reaction until recently he came across some information about a very important gut bacteria called E. Coli Nissle 1917 (the good E. Coli) which happens to get killed by Rifaximin. In people who have normal levels of this E. Coli, killing off some should eventually result in a repopulation, no problem. But in people who have significantly lower level of this E. Coli to begin with, killing off the few remaining bugs is disaster.

As a result of this experience, we are both really concerned about taking more antibiotics to get rid of pathogenic bacteria, because it's impossible to know which good ones are taken out with them, never to return again. I'm interested in knowing more about your experience with Flagyl, and whether you took other antibiotics or antifungals. Did you have any die-off symptoms? How long did you take it? In what ways did you repopulation afterward?

I haven't really seen anyone on this thread mentioning supplementing with E. Coli Nissile 1917 (found in the probiotic brand name Mutaflor, from Germany). This particular strain seems to be the C.B. of the E. Coli world, and is responsible for all sorts of things, like producing K2 and B12 among other things. We ordered it in the U.S. from a pharmacy in Canada. I highly recommend that folks on this thread at least look into it, if you haven't already.

 

[Basilico]

I am wrestling with this question right now. Since constipation is a major problem, I am afraid to add any pre or probiotic in case it feeds/colonizes something in or too close to the small intestine. I also would rather avoid antibiotics if possible.

I am wondering if using magnesium citrate (those nasty colonoscopy prep drinks) for a short while to flush out the whole system. I am hoping that in addition to a good clean out, perhaps it would wash out some of the gut flora -- enough so that the good stuff I put in and feed will actually become established.

Any opinions on this idea? Anyone tried this approach? I need to take the "next step" but I can't figure out what that is. Really getting confused and overwhelmed.

I have a suggestion. I've had IBS-C for years. At my worst, I just stopping having BM - on separate occasions I've gone as long as 2 months with no BMs. I tried every folk remedy, and taking fiber in the form of psyllium made me so much worse. The way that I was able to drastically improve my IBS was to eat only soluble fiber (insoluble fiber really stopped me up, which is one of the reasons I disagree with the terrain before population method). So, I'd peel all fruits/vegetables and not eat the peels, and I'd not eat any whole grains or stuff like that. I was making bone broth in the hope that the glutamine would help to repair my gut (don't know if it did).

The only thing that consistently produced BMs was a product that I found called Hydro-C. It's a very gentle form of Vitamin C that doesn't cause any irritation but made me poop like clockwork. That stuff is amazing. I experimented with other forms of vitamin C (ascorbic acid) in high doses and magnesium citrate, but nothing else worked at all. You can find it on the gutsense.org website. This is probably the only health-related supplement of the thousands that I bought that ever worked for me.

In the meanwhile, you can always resort to enemas; not fun, but they are good for cleaning house

 

[ariel]

Ugh... this stuff is killing me.
Sorry. Just needed to vent...

Have developed a chest infection off and on ever since staring this. Have been rereading bits of the thread and it seems that others have had something similar. Might be something to do with the drainage from the sinuses that I'm getting.
Going to stop and restart at possibly 1/4 of a tab.

 

[JPV]

Have developed a chest infection off and on ever since staring this. Have been rereading bits of the thread and it seems that others have had something similar. Might be something to do with the drainage from the sinuses that I'm getting.

CB is purported to be able to kill pathogens such as Candida...

Candida Die Off Symptoms

Common Symptoms

The symptoms indicate a large number of yeast are dying, thereby, increasing the toxic overload in the body. If you are already suffering from yeast infection or candidiasis, the symptoms may get more worse. These dying yeast secrete toxins, which get mixed with the toxins released by the live Candida. As a result, due to population of yeast in your bloodstream increasing, there are more health problems. It becomes difficult for the body to overcome the toxin production. If the symptoms are too severe, it is advisable to decrease your dose of antifungal drug. Following are a list of symptoms:

• Headache, tiredness, and fatigue
• Gastrointestinal problems such as diarrhea, nausea, constipation, and bloating
• Fever, chills, sore throat, sweating, and hypotension
• Feeling sleepy, anxiety, depression, blurred vision, and sudden anger reactions
• Chest pain, sinusitis, and heart palpitations
• Muscle cramps, joint soreness, body itching with pain
• Rashes on the body, due to allergic reaction
• Eagerness to eat sweet foods that contain carbohydrates

 

[Gondwanaland]

@ariel yes it clogs the lymph system
@Basilico I dind't know Mutaflor were a German product. I have family in Germany and they will be visiting for Xmas. Do you know if it can be found in physical stores over there? Was it of any help for your IBS-C (I have the same problem, but my intervals are shorter than yours - every 3-4 days or so)

 

[Basilico]

As far as I know, they should be able to find Mutaflor in any pharmacy. It comes in little boxes, individual blister sealed packets and the pills are enteric coated. We paid about $40/box, and I think the price in Germany should be comparable, maybe a little cheaper than that without the shipping (we priced it on German Amazon since we were trying to figure out if it would be cheaper to order it while in Italy vs. having it shipped to US from Canada). It does need to be refrigerated, but it can be transported up to 3 days without refrigeration, so it shouldn't be any problem for them to bring it.

When I started taking the Mutaflor, my constipation wasn't terrible; I was having a BM about every 2-3 days, which is not great but definitely not my worst. When I'm like that, often drinking coffee helps me to be regular, but suddenly my coffee trick had stopped working. Then I started the Mutaflor and by the 2nd day, I was going like clockwork. So I did notice that Mutaflor worked to alleviate my constipation.

 

[Bansaw]

I just got my Miryarsian ten days ago from Japan and been trying it. After a day of bad diarrhea my gut settled down and now I am taking about 6 or 7 with each meal. (If I take more than 7, I do feel a little loose.)
I've noticed a positive increase in health (better sleep, slight increased energy), say about +4%, so I ordered some more from Japan. I think the vendor has seen increased sales because he's put his price up on Amazon to $15 now!
Tomorrow I might start on my RS.

I've had a good idea for a while that my issues are gut related since I took a very, very heavy anti-biotic protocol for Endemic Typhus a few years ago and I think that didn't help my gut bacteria out.
I am now wondering how to get my gut microbiome up where it should be. I'd been doing Kefir for a while but this CB "ground bacteria" might be a piece of the puzzle I was missing.

 

[Gondwanaland]

So I did notice that Mutaflor worked to alleviate my constipation.

But you had a worsening even though you were taking it?